1984 + The Handmaids Tale

[derangedangel18]

I have a piece of coursework to write on 1984, I have chossen to write about the portrayal of women and their views. It's driving me crazy, can anyone help?!?!? Please!!! :flare:

[Nightshade]

Im afraidf I can only help you with the handmaids tale if you need that :D

[derangedangel18]

That would be great Night shade!!!

[Scheherazade]

What is it that you need help with exactly, derangedangel18? If you are more specific, maybe some members can offer their views on the issues you are stuck with.

[Nightshade]

ok Well lets see women in Ht there are 4 types as well as the Aunts. all are colour defined. Oh and dont forget the Unwomen. lets see Moira is the modern post feminist woman. whats her name the narrators mother was a feminist. Women are betrayed as secondry to men always.umm you know what Im going to need less vauge outline of what exactly you need. :nod:

[derangedangel18]

I'm looking more for specific areas of the novel now which show how women are portrayed and their views on the society. I have discovered that offred doesnt really express an opinion of her own, she just comments other peoples opinions. I'm also looking at sexual relationships in some depth and how they compare with 1984. Also psychological manipulation, physical control, fear, and the control of sexual pleasure. The control of information e.g news and the control of language e.g limits individuals ideas and capability of expression. Is something i would like to add to my essay so any links to passages or quotes which are relevant to these topics would be helpful for either novel.

Today I found that the red-armed prole woman in 1984 could represent a prime example of reproductive virility. Does any one think it would be a good idea to link this to the colour of the handmaids dresses in HMT?

[derangedangel18]

Can anyone help me out with some quotes and/or passages to link these points to the novels?
1. restriction of language and personal expression
2.use of propaganda to rule
3.ambiguous ruller/ who is Big Brother
4.missinformation and lack of it
5.restriction of sex except for "breeding purposes"(The Handmaid's Tale)
6.both prophetic novels, based on past historical events
7. Both winston and offred use form of mental escapism

[Nightshade]

Number one is the bit about the faith cushion.
2 is the bit in the chapter before the cermoney where they listen to the news also most everything the Aunts say.
5 hummm the bit about the 2 young guards where she says somthing along the lines of they now only have each other and that is a sin or somthing.

[hp 4ever!]

I definitely think you could color symbolism to relate the role of the women in the Handmaid's Tale. Specifically, the red garment of the Handmaid's and the blue garment of the Commanders' Wives.
Let's start off with red (source=The Dictionary of Symbolism: "In the Christian artistic tradition,...women of easy virtue wore red" (Biedermann 287). Thus, in relation to the Handmaids, this could represent the outlook of the Wives of the Handmaids. They seemed to think that women such as Offred had loose morals perhaps because they were jealous of them. Also, red is a symbol of blood and thus it can be seen as a representation of the fertility of the Handmaids. The lack of red for the other women (e.g. Marthas) could signify the lack of their fertility. In addition, the women in this society seem to gain attention as soon as they reproduce. Thus, red could symbolize the envy and anger directed towards the handmaids when they reproduce. Also, a great quote to support the role of women being childbearers is seen on page 221 of The Handmaid's Tale: "Notwithstanding she shall be saved by childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety" (originally from 1st Timothy: 2).

However, blue (garment color what the Wives wear) is used quite ironically in my opinion. "Blue, the symbol of the truth and the eternity of God (for what is true is eternal), will always remain the symbol of human immortality: (Biedermann 44). This obviously not the case for the Wives for they gossip, get things from the blackmarket, encourage the Handmaid's to "wrongfully" carry out relationships with other men to produce, and they further their husband's careers through soul scrolls (pg. 167).


:yawnb:

[hp 4ever!]

Censorship:
"They only show us victories, never defeats. Who wants bad news?" (Atwood 83).

Forbidden words:
"I almost gasp: he's said a forbidden word. Sterile. There is no such thing as a sterile man anymore,, not officially. There are only women who are fruitful and women who are barren, that's the law" (61).

Use depictions rather than words since words are forbidden:
"The two others have purple placards hung around their necks: Gender Treachery" (43).

"I take the tokens from Rita's outstretched hand. They have pictures on them, of the things they can be exchanged for: twelve eggs, a piece of chees" (11). ***This is significant because it shows that they cannot even talk to get the groceries. They just show a picture of the item and then they get it.

Silence:
"How I used to despise such talk. Now I long for it. At least it was talk. An exchange, of sorts" (11).

"We learned to whisper almost without sound. In the semidarkness we could stretch out our arms, when the Aunts weren't looking, and touch each toehr's hands across space. We learned to lipread" (4).

Semaphores:
FIND THIS QUOTE: When Nick uses his hat as a signal for Offred to indicate whether or not she has to meet the Commander. The signal "5" that Moira gives to Offred indicating to meet in the washroom in 5 minutes.

**Restricting the language of the people is restricting how much of their identity can be expressed because language is a key aspect in expressing your individuality. Yet, since it is regulated, it will be easier to control the people for without language, certain inhabitants of Gilead are left w/ little to no identity, and those without an identity are easier to control for the government can install one for them. (e.g. Offred loses majority of identity when she sees her little girl happy without her. Towards the end, she begins to accept Gilead as her home whereas earlier she wanted to escape and find her family).

Also, Scrabble games demonstrate the power of language.

[hp 4ever!]

Throughout our English course over the year, we've examine the aspect are often used to demonstrate a certain aspect of a character/characters (e.g. see my post on Nathan Price in The Poisonwood Bible). The same seems to true for Handmaid's Tale, except the religious aspect of the society is to demonstrate a common element in dsytopian novels: a deceptive societal goal. Firstly, let's start off by examining the name of the society, which is Gilead. Gilead is a religious reference to the Bible and it describes an area that was a peaceful and healing area. Yet, in reality, Gilead in the novel is the extreme opposite for the women. This is demonstrated by Offred's pain due to her new life: "I want her back. I want everything back, the way it was" (Atwood 122). Offred is filled with despair for her child and her husband are both far waay from her. She claims that "[t]here's nobody [she] can love, all the peoople [she] could love are dead or elsewhere" (103). This seems to quite a healing society huh? (being quite sarcastic there). Also, the concept of peace in this society is laughable for there is wall full of hangings! Thus, it can be concluded that this biblical allusion is used in an ironic sense.
Yet, it seems the majority of the allusions are used in an ironic sense. The Book of Job is another one for it is primarily about Job being tested by having Satan taking things away from him and Job not blaming God at all. Although this is taught to the society members to be willing to sacrifice everything for God but even those in power don't follow this and they make the Handmaids sacrifice all of their positions. This is seen by the existance of the black market (the Wives get Cigarettes and the Commanders get Vogue).
So, the main question is, why are the religious illusions used ironically. Well, I believe it is to show that the goal is deceptive for no one is healed nor does anyone seem to be paid for the sacrifice. The is a perfect element to demonstrate a dystopia and perhaps that's why Atwood used the allusions in this manner.

Closing thought: "Bible is kept locked up" (87) in this society: it's the source of truth. Therefore, the truth is hidden from the eyes of those that are powerless to be able to use the powerful tool of religion to justify their sinful desire for power.

[hp 4ever!]

One of my favorite poems that I've ever read is "Ladies in Gentleman in Outer Space" by Ron Padgett. It's such an intriguing piece for it describes the inevitability of change. Also, it strongly reminded me a of a renoun dystopian piece: The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. Both the poem and the novel have the protagonist commenting on the fact that life changes so quickly. This is seen in the poem when the protagonist says that everything "changes...so quickly it literally surpasses [his/her] belief" (lines 2-6). Similarily, in Handmaid's Tale, there is a moment in where Offred contemplates on how her life had changed so quickly. Thus, perhaps the message in both of these works concerning change is to "butter and serve" (16). I belief this means to "coat" yourself with knowledge (like how butter coats the vegetables) so you'll be prepared for the change and so your mind will not be clouded with disbelief due to the astounding change (brace ourselves for change).
Yet, it all depends on your interpretation!

[BigPapi34]

Butter and Serve to me almost agrees with the dystopias. I see it as more of a "Go along with whatever comes at you and you will be ok, so if you go along with whatever comes at you, it suggests that you do not attempt to resist the oppression that is coming from the dystopia. In this sense, "Ladies and Gentlemen" would be perhaps an ironic look at what most people within a society would do if they experienced oppression.

[hp 4ever!]

The slogan for this society has been the most interesting aspect in this novel to me because it is a form of doublethink. To clarify, the slogan that I'm refering to is:

"WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH" (Orwell 16).
It is a form of doublethink as seen by the following passage: "[Smith's] mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink....[T]o hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them" (35).
The different verses of the slogan are quite contradictory as seen by the first one: war is peace (normally one associates the act of war with violance). The act of doublethink benefits the society by creating confusion in the mind of those engaging in it as we discussed in class. Yet, there are other benefits as well as seen with this slogan.

Let's start off with the first verse: war is peace. The government wants its members to believe in this statement because if the members of the society are constantly at war, then the government is able to benefit in 2 ways: 1). The members of the society are able to channel their anger for the government towards the enemy nations. As a result the people will be calmer(this shows how the government controls their emotions as seen in Handmaid's Tale). In addition, the members of society are kept busy so that they won't have time to plot against the government. All of these aspects maintain peace in between the government and its people.

The second verse: freedom is slavery. The freedom of the people would result in the slavery of the government becuase the people would hold the power to command the government to do certain things making the government a subordinate, powerless slave. Thus, the government strongly limits the freedom of the people to make the people the slaves (this allows for the gov. to have an omnipotent status).

Lastly, ignorace is strength is quite crucial for the government becuase the ignorance of the people will result in the people's lack of knowing things that can be used against the government (e.g. the photograph Smith had).


The result of the action reflects the what the government desires (war=result of peace b/w the gov. and its ppl. This reflects the government's desire to maintain total control including the control of the ppl.'s emotions....freedom=result of slavery for gov. so the gov. takes it away since it desires to be in control). So it seems so far the slogan reflects that (on a large-scale basis) the government's focus is more oriented towards the result rather than the act (care about the fact that the war would result in peace rather than what enemy nation war is ag. or what weapons). This could ultimately result in the downfall of the government becuase let's say for instance that the nation was fighting against Urasia and lost. Well, firstly the government would have new problems becuase it would be quite difficult to remove any evidence of Big Brother saying that Urasia would lose. This would be obvious and concrete proof that Big Brother isn't all that knowledgeable or powerful since his crummy army lost to Urasia.

[Gerbs]

I think that the Party Slogans are not so much as tools to manipulate the people as they are actual truths into how they keep the social hierarchy of the proles, outer party, and inner party, or low, middle, and high classes. The Book that Emannuel Goldstien (aka. O'Brian) wrote actually explains in great detail of the main intentions of the party on page 184.

[L'EngleLover]

Leandra Barnes: Class Discussion Substituton

There were several aspects within the section of Part Two: I-V that intriqued me. One of which was my suprise concerning the "dark haired girl" aka Julia. I believe her character as a whole is an accuate representation of majority of the Party people within 1984. Although she is young and overly involved in organizations such as the "Junior Anti-Sex League" and the junior spies, she still completely loathes the society and only rebels against it in secret. "She only questioned the teachings of the Party when they in some way touched upon her own life," suggesting that she would in no ways be interested in changing parts of the society that did not directly affect her. Because of this, i beleive her to be a coward, like all other members of the Party. She disagrees with its principles, but merely puts on a front while she secretly indulges in her desires. Her cowardice is also evident while she is talking about her first love affair:

"She had her first love affair when she was sixteen, with a Party member of sixty who later committed suicide to avoid arreest. 'And a good job too,' said Julia. 'Otherwise they'd have had my name out of him when he confessed'" (131)

Julia was completely indifferent when the man that she supposedly "loved," just as she had claimed to "love" Winston in her secret note (108). She was only looking out for herself, signifying that in a society such as this, even the profound word "love" can become corrupted. Julia's character as a whole is also an example of how it would be possible for such a horrible society to come about in the first place. Her character embodies numbness and indifference. While Winston tried to explain to her the wrongs that the Record Department committed, "she did not feel the abyss opening beneath her at the thought of lies becoming truths" (154). She simply did not care because it had nothing to do with her. Julia even went as far as to say that she would rather take risks "only for something worth while, not for bits of old newspaper" (155). Frankly, those bits of old newspaper represented evidence and truth, meaning that Julia has no value for truth, prefering to risk her life several times over for sex. Because Julia, like the others in the sciety, are numb and indifferent, they make no effort to rebel or change things, merely continuing the cycle. In order to lead a revolution, you must be willing to sacrifice yourself for a better future, for people that you will have never met or known. However, in a society in which people, are "no interested in the next generation" and only able to focus on themselves, such an overthrowing of power will never occur (156). The majority is unable to understand, to grasp the concept, and because of that, "the Party [is able to impose] itself most sucessflly on people incapable of understanding it" (156).

Alot of other things I found include the following:

The reoccurence of themonth of May reminded me of May Day in HMT. Spring signifies birth and love, representing its purpose in both novels.

Role of Language: Julia uses language as a way of rebeling against the Party. "Julia...seemed unable to mentin the Party, and especially the Inner Party, without using the kind of words tha you saw chalked up in dripping alleyways...It was merely one symptom of her revolt against the Party and all its ways" (122). This parallels to Offred's ability to use words in Scrabble as a way of rebeling against what is forbidden.

Winston's fear of rats out "of all horrors in the world" could be paralleled to a fear of a person who is a rat, in the sense that they "rat" other people out (144).

Parallel to GOST: But you could not have pure love or pure lust nowadays. No emotion was pure, because everything was mixed up with fear and hatred. Their embrace had been a battle, the climax a victory. It was a blow struck against the Party. It was a political act" (126).

When Winston began meeting with Julia on a regular basis, he felt that "the process of life had ceased to be intolerable [and] had no longer any impuse to make faces at the telescreen or shout curses at the top of his voice" just like Offred di when she began seeing Nick (150). Also, "he did not touch the diary during those days," his means of rebellion, just like Offred refused to spy on the Commander for May Day due to her obsession with Nick (111).

oh yah....and Syme DID vanish :P

[rekz]

hi can anyone please help me out in this title.i really dont know how to start it off and i need some help with some quotes refering to the characters searching for love and images associated. can someone please help me out thank you

[hp 4ever!]

I HAD WRITTEN THIS POST LAST WEEK on Saturday on paper! Another post I had written was basically described on pg. 164 (about how the society was so hypocritical b/c Winston worked in the Ministry of Truth yet he was falsifying all of the information to uphold the omnipotent status of Big Brother.

***WARNING: SPOILER! Don't read until have finished the book!
Also, the structure of the slogan resembled that of a pyramid. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, yet it seems that even the pyramid-like structure reflects even how it's related to the society's hierarchial structure (which resembles a pyramid in the sense that the base of the pyramid is quite larger than the top in terms of population, since the proles make up ~85% of the population if I remember correctly. The Outer Party members make are the second largest....the inner party members make up the top of the pryamid w/ the least amount of the overall population being in this party. In relation, the last line of the slogan is the longest of the lines.....then freedom is slavery is the second longest. War is peace is the shortest....this could be just a coincidence, but the war is peace aspect has to do w/ the Ministry of Peace. Those working at the ministry could be part of the Inner party, however that is not known for certain. Yet, O'Brien reveals to Winston that the wars are a tactic to rid the society in the book that he wrote and gave to Winston. Therefore, it is probable that either he has once worked for the Ministry of Peace or that his Inner Party friends work there. Once again though, this is not certain. This slogan works in the favor of the Inner Party members as I've discussed above. Freedom is slavery seems to describes the outer party members like wilson because they have limited freedom in comparison to both the inner party members (who get to have 30 mins. of privacy by turning off the telescreen) and the proles (who have access to the past memories...and other forbidden items). These members are enslaved due to their lack of freedom. Lastly, ignorance is strength describes the proles for they are ignorant of the power they possess as Winston reveals (if there is hope, it lies in the proles. However, the proles don't realize the power of numbers and the fact that they could overthrow the gov. since they consist of more than half of the pop). Both the inner party members and the outer party members are not ignorant becuase as seen w/ O'Brien and Winston's knowledge of the oppression imposed on the people. Now, why would these two structures coincide? In fact, the Ministries that enforce each aspect of the slogan (which I had noticed b4 the book had revealed to us that the ministry of love does quite the opposite of "loving" through torturing people=doublethink!). The ministries also have a pyramidal structure too!! Hmm..so many similarities in the structure being pryamidal could possibly be a method to symbolically demonstrate the stratified power and wealth at the top. However, I believe it is used to exemplify the common dystopian element of the hierarchy based society which is also seen in The Handmaid's Tale.

war is peace
freedom is slavery
ignorance is strength

[Pipidar1991]

WARNING SPOILER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I thought it was really interesting when Winston discovered what was really meant by a place without darkness: “In this place, he knew instinctively, the lights would never be turned out. It was a place with no darkness: he saw now why O’Brian had seemed to recognize the allusion” (Orwell 229). This passage refers to the prison that Winston is kept in. At first when they had mentioned a place without darkness, I had thought that it meant a place where they could be open to talk about things and to not be monitored by the Party. Instead as Winston discovers it is a place where everything comes out and he can not hide behind the darkness any longer. As seen in the Handmaid’s Tale night and darkness often provide a sort of cover for the character to disobey all the rules and be free to think how he/she wants to think. Now that Winston is stuck in the prison he is know longer free and will never again no the feeling of hiding something from the Party.

Another interesting passage was when Winston was talking with Parsons who had also recently been arrested for speaking badly of Big Brother in his sleep. Parsons tells Winston, “Do you know what I am going to say to them when I go up before the tribunal ‘Thank you’ I’m going to say, ‘thank you for saving me before it was too late’” (Orwell 233). This passage shows the kind of mentality that the Party imposes on its people. It breaks them down until they have no thought in their mind except for their love of Big Brother. This foreshadows the reason why they keep Winston alive for so long. I find it amazing how they can get people to feel guilty about saying something in their sleep, but the people who actually commit true crimes get treated a lot better. Then again that is how the society works political crime or crimes towards the Party are thought worse than normal ones.

Also what was really weird was the relationship between Winston and O’Brian during Winston’s imprisonment. Winston described O’Brian as “the tormenter, he was the protector, he was the inquisitor, he was the friend” (Orwell 244). Even though, O’Brian spends his time torturing Winston, Winston still finds some kind of comfort from him. When Winston believed that O’Brian was a part of some kind of resistance, O’Brian became very important to him, because he finally found hope that there were others who thought bad about the Party and were actually willing to do something about it. However, when Winston realizes that O’Brian was not on his side he still hung on to O’Brian, because he still wanted to believe there was some hope left. This is what makes it so sad, when Winston finally gives his hope and mind up and finds love for Big Brother.

One passage that was really creepy was on page 256 when O’Brian was talking to Winston and tells him, “Never again will you be capable of ordinary human feeling. Everything will be dead inside you. Never again will you be capable of love, or friendship, or joy of living, or laughter, or curiosity, or courage, or integrity. You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty, and then we shall fill you with ourselves” (Orwell 256). This passage shows an important concept of the governments in dystopian societies. As long as the rulers ensure that its people have no way of thinking their own thoughts or feeling their own feelings. Feelings are an important part of why rebellions and revolutions occur. They are a huge part of why people rise up against their rulers it gives them a system of right and wrong and makes them angry when they feel as though they are not being treated fairly. By depriving the people of their own feelings they become mindless drones and blind followers of the Party, which is exactly what the Party wants. This is shown finally at the end of the novel when O’Brian’s threat comes true for Winston and all he feels is what the Party wants him to feel.

[hp 4ever!]

**I completely forgot about my previous posts about these dsytopian novels (of course there are some modifications know that I’ve finished the book :).


Here are some interesting things I’ve noticed in 1984:
On page 6, Winston discusses his room: “It was partly the unusual geography of the room that had suggested to him the thing he was now about to do” (Orwell 6). I never really thought about it before, however is the geography of the room a false security blanket for those trying to rebel? Is it a strategic ploy by the Party members to bring out the rebels such as Winston. If so, then this would explain the fact that they know the fears of the those that rebel as seen with the scene in room 101 where the rats were on the other side of the wall (e.g. Winston’s greatest fear). This is explained by the possibility that by bringing out the rebels, the Party members can scrutinize their every move to learn of their fears (the others are left alone which of course is both productive and ingenious).

[hp 4ever!]

In class today (which was a while back), we discussed the importance of the diary--specifically the fact that it could be symbol of hope that there actually will be a rebellion in Winston. However, is it really a symbol of hope for the future? Winston states that he was writing the diary “[f]or the future, for the unborn” (Orwell 7). However, through examining the assertion that “[w]ho controls the past…controls the future: who controls the present controls the past” (35), it seems to be that the Party is the future for they control the past (through memory swipes, limit on artifacts of past, since the only antiquary we knew turned out to be a member of the Thought Police) and they control the present (limited rights, privacy, and privileges for the subordinate classes). Thus, they must control the future according to the assertion (also it makes since because the control of the present is essentially control of the future b/c say the Party is dominant at 3:33 p.m. and 28 seconds…well, now that time has past so therefore they control the past at all times. The Party is still controlling due to the fact that the control the present…well, the present at this precise moment is the future in relation to the time 3:33 p.m. and 28 seconds. Therefore, they are always controlling).


In addition, we later find out when Winston is in Room 101 that “if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever” (267). Therefore, those of the future generation will not be able to see according to their own free will for there is a boot on their face “forever.” Therefore, the diary will be useless in the sense that the vision necessary to read it will not be available to those of the future since they are controlled.

The hope that Winston has though lies in the proles. Yet, “[u]ntil [the proles] become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious” (70). Meaning, it is never going to happen as O’Brien points out on page 261. Once again, the concept of hope is a ruined cause.


Also, another interesting correlation the “place” where Winston and O’Brien meet, “in the place in where there is no darkness…[which was] the imagined future” (104). In this imagined future, Winston hopefully imagined the concept of rebellion occurring. However, towards the end, the reader learns that Winston in fact knew what the future held for him as he stated to O’Brien for it held his vaporization (“We are dead. Our only true life is in the future” (176)).


So, why would Winston do such things when he knew the outcome was going to be quite the opposite of what he hoped for?
Perhaps this is seen by Offred’s wise comment that “people will do anything rather than admit that their lives have no meaning. No use, that is. No plot” (Atwood 215).
:yawnb:

[hp 4ever!]

In class today (which was a while back), we discussed the importance of the diary--specifically the fact that it could be symbol of hope that there actually will be a rebellion in Winston. However, is it really a symbol of hope for the future? Winston states that he was writing the diary “[f]or the future, for the unborn” (Orwell 7). However, through examining the assertion that “[w]ho controls the past…controls the future: who controls the present controls the past” (35), it seems to be that the Party is the future for they control the past (through memory swipes, limit on artifacts of past, since the only antiquary we knew turned out to be a member of the Thought Police) and they control the present (limited rights, privacy, and privileges for the subordinate classes). Thus, they must control the future according to the assertion (also it makes since because the control of the present is essentially control of the future b/c say the Party is dominant at 3:33 p.m. and 28 seconds…well, now that time has past so therefore they control the past at all times. The Party is still controlling due to the fact that the control the present…well, the present at this precise moment is the future in relation to the time 3:33 p.m. and 28 seconds. Therefore, they are always controlling).


In addition, we later find out when Winston is in Room 101 that “if you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face-forever” (267). Therefore, those of the future generation will not be able to see according to their own free will for there is a boot on their face “forever.” Therefore, the diary will be useless in the sense that the vision necessary to read it will not be available to those of the future since they are controlled.


The hope that Winston has though lies in the proles. Yet, “[u]ntil [the proles] become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious” (70). Meaning, it is never going to happen as O’Brien points out on page 261. Once again, the concept of hope is a ruined cause.


Also, another interesting correlation the “place” where Winston and O’Brien meet, “in the place in where there is no darkness…[which was] the imagined future” (104). In this imagined future, Winston hopefully imagined the concept of rebellion occurring. However, towards the end, the reader learns that Winston in fact knew what the future held for him as he stated to O’Brien for it held his vaporization (“We are dead. Our only true life is in the future” (176)).


So, why would Winston do such things when he knew the outcome was going to be quite the opposite of what he hoped for?
Perhaps this is seen by Offred’s wise comment that “people will do anything rather than admit that their lives have no meaning. No use, that is. No plot” (Atwood 215).
:yawnb:

[hp 4ever!]

This is probably a HUGE stretch but is O’Brien actually Goldstein? Was he allowed to remain in the society because he acted as Goldstein to stir up hatred against another person other than Big Brother? Goldstein did seem to have mysteriously escaped and disappeared (Orwell 11-12) just as O’Brien managed to get out of Room 101. O’Brien does discuss the fact that he can get his face changed: “We may be obliged to give him a new identity. His face, his movements, the shape of his hands, the color of his hair-even his voice would be different….Our surgeons can alter people beyond recognition. Sometimes it is necessary” (173). Also, when Winston first mentioned the book, he stated that “Goldstein was the author and which circulated clandestinely here and there. It was a book without a title” (13). Well, all of the things are true about the book that had no title being secretly handed around with the philosophy of Goldstein embellished within its pages. So, perhaps the author of the book could truly Goldstein, which is O’Brien along with some other people. Once again, I know it’s a stretch but it could be true since the bombings, the wars, etc. all seem to be fabricated. So, why not the true identity of Goldstein?

[hp 4ever!]

***My question is why did Oceania survive and not Gilead?
I think it’s due to the fact that the control of Oceania was ultimately more than Gilead due to their tactics of constant pain:“‘How does one man assert his power over another, Winston?’ [asked O’brien]. Winston thought. ‘By making him suffer,’ he said. ‘Exactly. By making him suffer….Power is in inflicting pain and humiliation” (266). In Gilead, the physical pain inflictions seemed to be quite low than those in Oceania, since those in Oceania had a special room dedicated into humiliating the victim and inflicting a substantial amount of physical pain on the victim. It is through these inflictions of pain that those in Oceania can get inside of you, which is the ultimate factor that leads in the victory of the Party unlike Gilead’s fate (since Gilead wasn’t really able to get inside of you marked by Offred’s thoughts and memories that were not changed at all unless it was by her command. This means she has power over her mind, but Winston didn’t as seen by the fact that he agreed that “2+2=5” (290). The influence of constant pain is also seen by Offred’s comment: “But who can remember pain, once it’s over? All that remains of it is a shadow, not it the mind even, in the flesh. Pain marks you, but too deep to see. Out of sight, out of mind” (Atwood 125). In Gilead, physical pain is not endured on a massive scale where it is in Oceania. Therefore, pain in those of Oceania is in sight, in mind, which leads to the Party’s prevalence. Through the strict control of the mind, the Party members are able to ensure their power will prevail for they are able to control the present and thus the past thus the future (refer to quote on page 35 in Orwell’s 1984 for the actual quote).

[Twinkle_toes]

Hi there. I have been set an essay question by my teacher and i have to discuss the similarities and differences of the presentation of the theme of freedom in 1984 and the handmaids tale.

I would be grateful for anyone who could shed some light on this as i am stuck with where to even begin :(

Thanks guys :p

[Hafsa]

HELP!!!URGENT wiv comparison of dystopia in 1984 and The Handmaids Tale


Hi ppl i hav an essay q? -'hw do the novelists use the dystopian form to reflect the respective concerns of their societies?'
in the Handmaids tale by margaret atwood and 1984 by george orwell.

am stuk on what exactly to ryt so wud b highly grateful if sumone cud help...fankoo

or ne1 can email me at [email protected]

thanx again

[Rob Fusion]

How long does it have to be? And if you read Orwell's 1984 you'll know the answer to that quite easily. To write any sort of literature one must have prior knowledge to the subject, even if its only a minor glimpse. You could argue that Orwell was stating how Russia would end up if its Communist regime would continue, but that is why he wrote "Animal Farm."

I'm not familiar with the other novel, but from reading Orwell's works I do believe that he took Stalin's communist regime into mind and placed it into 1984. I'm not going to give you the outright answer because that isn't what analyzing literature is about, nor am I doing your homework.

[10yWakingUp]

Oceania survived because the book was written by a better writer, G. Orwell, then Gilead, by M. Atwood.

[Hafsa]

woah! i wasnt expectin u 2lol i jst askd for help...mailny stuk wiv jst how to start it realy..and thanx neways for the help

[warm]

Just as Rob Fusion said, you should read up on how society is like during the time of writing. For the Handmaid's Tale, I suggest reading up on the Feminist Movements and the right wing politics.

[Hafsa]

thank you !! yeh i hav done a lot of reading recently !

[nickname0811]

The function of the physical, social and moral environments in Margaret Atwood’s The Handmaid’s Tale is to convey the themes cast in a dystopian view of the future where a rigid, patriarchal and theocratic society has been established. First of all, The Handmaid’s Tale was set in future, in Massachusetts. From several references in the novel, it is established that due to environmental destruction by the emission of nuclear and other toxic wastes, fertility has been reduced while infant mortality has been risen. Therefore, the society use military force to turn it back to the way it used to be or more even conservative. They have introduced new social practices and moral codes justified by a literal reading from the Bible. Since the main character, Offred, was set as the handmaid who was one of social justifications to increase fertility, Her experiences that was showed in the book positioned the reader to view most elements of this society to be extremely negative. Also, the facts that Gilead was set in the Harvard University where was the most educational institutions today present a great irony. It is a symbol of choice, freedom and knowledge. But since it was closed, it showed how the Gilead society was strictly forbidden any of individual freedoms. All laws such as giving the rights of free expression have been erased.:alien::flare::sick::bawling:

[nickname0811]

Even though we've already talked about the color symbolism in the Handmaid's tale, I want to add more thought into it.

The handmaid's color is red, which makes me to think about the Scarlet Letter as soon as I thought about it. The scarlet letter was a mark of sexual sin. Go back to the handmaid's tale, the handmaids are basically sinners from the society, even though they might think that they are better than the women who lived in the colony. Basically, they wearing their invisible scarlet letter. Also, The color of red symbolizes fertility. I also made a connection from the Kite Runner. There was a pomegranate tree in the book, which symbolizes the fertility, as well. Also, I noticed that Offred who is the narrator has a "red" on her name. I thought it is pretty interesting.

Also, the wives wore blue. I thought about the sky and sea, which also represent the blue. The sky and sea are basically just superior presence. Wives are considered as the superior human being compared to the handmaids or other women.

[OlutomilolaAsa7]

Light vs. Dark is a literary archetype that highlights a struggle engrained in the human psyche. Light is often associated with truth and purity while dark, its nemesis, represents evil and deceit. In Dystopian literature, the light vs. dark archetype, like many other literary stereotypes, is inverted in meaning, often reflecting the delusion of the dystopian society. In many dystopian novels, though for the perpetrators of the society light is still protection and truth and darkness evil and concealed corruption, the main character finds the society's light to be intrusive and a violation of privacy, even deceitful and corrupt, while associating freedom and truth with darkness, along with all other personal liberties lost in the dystopian society. The change in meaning of the light vs. dark archetype is present in both Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale and George Orwell's 1984, but the struggle between the two forces ends differently in each novel and is, in its end, symbolic of the hope present in the dystopian society, or lack thereof.

In both The Handmaid's Tale and 1984 light is subtly and often detailed in describing setting. Any kind of illumination surrounding the main character becomes most important during that character's moment of transformation, during which the most significant decisions of the novel are reached that will forever alter the character's life in dystopian society. In The Handmaid's Tale, it is never completely dark in the Republic of Gilead, as the searchlights are even at night nearly blinding so as to detect any kind of “mischief” in the darkness. For Offred, however, even the minimal darkness in the night allows for personal freedoms, such as her nightly mental escapades and secret rendezvous with the Commander and Nick. Light is ultimately significant to her final moments in the novel as well, as she surrenders to the potential help or harm that awaits her in the black van and steps up "into the darkness within; or else the light” (Atwood295). Though the darkness to the Giladean government, the Sons of Jacob, is a force of evil, darkness is for Offred a much needed solace and free time, in which her quest toward increased self-preservation, remembrance of the past, and hope gains the most ground. The lights of Gilead are a means of invading privacy that uphold the dystopian theme of constant surveillance, a theme even more evident in George Orwell’s 1984. “Big Brother is watching you” constantly in Oceania, along with telescreens, hidden microphones, and other modes of surveillance are planted to instill fear and reverence for the Party’s omnipotence and omnipresence. There are so many technological modes of observation, in fact, that light is not as significant in this respect until Part III of the novel, in which Winston is imprisoned in the Ministry of Love. Here Winston is stripped of all the technological norms of society under the Party and must use physical surroundings, or rather what he perceives are his physical surroundings, to make sense of what is happening to him. In this part of the novel, Winston details the intensity and color of the light that surrounds him everywhere he is tortured and beaten, especially during his one-on-one encounters with O’Brien. Light described in this way allows readers to get a sense of Winston’s physical surroundings while going further in empathy with Winston’s situation. Yellow lights are often associated with Winston’s physical pain, the color yellow being significant in its use as a warning or precaution. Winston encounters yellow light when he is struck on the elbow with a truncheon, and he later claims that “all that happened then was merely a preliminary, a routine interrogation to which nearly all prisoners were subjected” (Orwell240). Strong white light is what Winston encounters during his moments with O’Brien, in which he experiences the worst torture and transforms the most. Though he becomes accustomed to most cruel lighting, such as the glaring lights shone “in his face until his eyes ran with water” (Orwell241) and his growing “used to sleeping with strong lights on his face” (Orwell275), the harsh white light of Room 101 that undoubtedly plays a role in Winston’s utter betrayal of Julia, a burden he withstood throughout his torture, and ultimate complete conversion to the Party mindset. The novel ends with Winston confessing his love for Big Brother in broad daylight, “light-years distant” from the free-thinking man he used to be but now a fully engaged Party member with no real knowledge of what he knows. The ending of Winston’s story in light is indicative not only of his unfortunate conversion to the dark side of Party ideals but also the lost hope that he will return to his former state and that the Party will be overthrown. Unlike Offred, Winston is not given the chance to step up into potential freedom that lies in another land but is forced to conform to the mindless, loyal wraith that the Party desires him to be. Light in Dystopia is reversed in its duality, but it remains a tool that authors can and often use to illuminate underlying themes regarding true freedom and honest truth, how they are defined in current society, and how humanity is affected by these definitions.

[nickname0811]

Feb 18 2010 and Feb 19 2010:
I will focus on Winston and Big Brother’s definitions of “Truth” “Freedom,” and then “Love.” First of all, in the Ministry of Truth, which "was enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete, three hundred meters into the air" had the three slogans of the party. And "Freedom is slavery" of one of them. Somehow all the words are related into the doublethink. The purpose of doublethink is to mess up one's mind. The name of ministry made it everything trustworthy. Therefore, people never be able to think correctly because the title of Ministry of Truth, itself had a power of truth that makes people to believe in everything. For example, people would think that freedom is slavery is because ministry of truth said so.
However, Once Winston wrote down on his diary that "freedom is freedom that to say that two plus two is four." However, O'brien showed completely that Winston was completely wrong. And he asked Winston what if the govt said it is five not four. But Winston still claimed that it would be 4. After he said that to O'brien, only thing Winston got was more pain. This scene proves that people including Winston is slaves. And the government proves that it has freedom to do whatever it wants to the slaves.

Winston said that the Ministry of Love was the most frightening one. Compared to the other one, there were no windows in it at all, which bring the symbolism of light and dark. On part 3, when Winston was arrested in the Ministry of Love, "he was in a high-ceiling windowless cell with walls of glittering white porcelain." Even though there is no window, the inside of extremely bright. So this book reminds me of the "Heart of Darkness." Because it shows that the light is not always for hopefulness and stands for the positive image. The brightness of Building seemed to seek through and read all the prisoners rather than its hopefulness. Therefore, the light has a function of the eye that can see the prisoners and read their minds more clearly.

I also want to talk about Syme and Newspeak. Syme is Winston's friend who works for the new edition of Newspeak dictionary. He is too smart and knows a lot of things in the society. Therefore, Winston knows that Syme will be vaporized like others. Syme knows the purpose of Newspeak and how it will bring the true ideal of Big Brother. What he talked to Winston was basically mentioned in Goldstein's book. So I was wondering if he had already read the book. And he might finally be vaporized after the government was able to catch the evidence of Syme when he talked about the true purpose of Newspeak to Winston, which was an clear act of enemy from the society. Just the government had already knew Winston was an enemy from the society and watched him for 7 years. They didn't anything to him, until they finally catch the clear evidence. Maybe that is what happen to Syme. And Symn was caught, I should have noticed that Winston would finally get caught at the end, if what I said was true.

The Newspeak definitely what the society wanted to set up. What the society was forbidden was strongly criticized in the Newspeak language. But what the society encouraged people to performed this ideal, always have the positive meaning in the Newspeak language. For example, chastity was called "goodsex" in Newspeak. The sex was forbidden unless it was needed.

[nickname0811]

I want to compare between The Handmaid's tale and 1984. Since both of them are dystopian literature, there were a lot of similarities.
The ironic names. For example, the Angel from the Handmaid's tale. The Angel was not an angel who saves one's life from the danger. But instead it was like a spy for the government and takes charged of helping a government's total control. Also, the everything that includes "Victory" was ironic. Because contrasted to the real meaning of victory, everything with victory had a very low quality
Also, Winston from 1984 and Offred from the Handmaid's tale show a complete selfishness, which was what the government wanted, or at least what they believed what human naturally has selfish instinct. In the Handmaid's book, Offred used Nick to enjoy her individual and personal life. She made a love with Nick and wanted him to always there for her whenever she needed him. At the end, when she was arrested, she was hoping or thinking that Nick would help her out to get out of this society, which is her true selfishness. Also, in the 1984, the government had already figured out the natural instinct of human and used it a weapon. For example, when O'brien used rats to suffer Winston. Winston said that just do the same thing to his lover and betrayed her, which show his definite selfishness. But the problem is the government already knew that human is so selfish and all they think about it theirselves. In 1984, human natural selfishness was a weapon to confess people's sin and finally realized the true power of big brother.

[nickname0811]

I want to talk about how the society misused its belif and power to control citizens. For example, the technology was overly developed. There were countless number of telescreens and microphones to control people. However, the techonolgy was never used for the citizens. The electricity was limited and was used for the propaganda. Even though there were elevators, they didn't work anyway. Not only that, the technology term was limited to the people, unless they have something related to the scientific jobs. The C vocabulary was consited of scientific and technological terms. However, "there was no vocabulary expressing the function of Science as a habit of mind, or a method of thought, irrespective of its particualr branches." The governemnt made sure that the technology only has to be use for it, not any other things. Also, excluding some high class people, the most of people hardly maintain their lives. It is ironic. Becaus Ociena believed that "wealth, in the senseof personal possessions and luxuries, should be evenly distributed, while power remained in the hands of a small privileged caste." Probably they just said it to make people believed in governemnt.

[OlutomilolaAsa7]

For Week of 2/22/10 - 2/26/10:

In George Orwell's 1984, the main character Winston recalls many dreams he has had. Sometimes Winston's dreams can help him make sense of his past - like the dream of his mother and sister helps him realize the depth of their love and sacrifice for him - and foreshadow future events, in this sense giving him psychic power. The dream I am refering to in paticular is Winston's dream of Julia, before he knows anything about her, ripping off her clothes in a sort of meadowed area, which he refers to as "The Golden Country," and walking toward him; later he recalls both the meadow and her nudity as it unfolds in reality before his eyes "almost as swiftly as he had imagined it" (125). Winston's dream of O'Brien, in which he is told they will someday "meet in the place where there is no darkness" (244) is most likely a thought interjected by O'Brien into Winston's subconscious - as in Part III of the novel O'Brien does meet Winston in the Ministry of Love, where darkness is replaced by dazzling, disorienting, and transforming light. This reveals the genius of the Thought Police and the Party in general, as they know individuals well enough - most likely through the telescreens and other technological surveillance mechanisms - to know how to manipulate their subconscious, the one aspect of their existence supposedly untouched by the enforced dystopian reality, to even enforce their reality there; this results in truly omnipresent and omnipotent Party ideals.

Winston's definitions of truth, love, and freedom change drastically in Part III of the novel where he encounters this dazzling light of Party enlightenment. He is forced to abandon the ideas that "freedom is the freedom to say two plus two is four" and even that of "all hope lies with the proles" in favor of O'Brien's single, all-encompassing idea that "whatever the Party holds to be truth is truth. It is impossible to see reality except by looking through the eyes of the Party" (249). With this truth, freedom and love become obsolete and worthless. Even Winston's dreams cannot escape the ever-watching eye of the Party, and he later regards his memories as false. All that lies within him after O'Brien's revelation is the logic that "2+2=5" and the fact that he, according to the Party, "won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother," the destroyer of self and savior of complete "majority rules" in 1984.

[IReadBooks]

Hey, I'm going to do a little thread reviving here and share my thoughts on a few things:

Here's how I define the following terms relating to 1984:

Truth - Winston sees the truth as an unalterable fact, something that exists in the real world as well as in the minds of the people. This is why he picks something as factual as '2 + 2 = 4', as he feels that no one could ever dispute this is the truth. He finds the photograph of the three 'thought criminals' and holds on to it desperately, because it exists as a tangible truth to him. Therefore, Winston subscribes to the idea that truth cannot be hidden, as evidence of it can be found in reality. Big Brother however defines truth as whatever the Party wants its citizens to believe. Reality to the Party only exists in the mind, and therefore truth can easily be changed. Photographs are meaningless to the Party.

Love - to Winston, this is the one emotion through which he feels he can rebel against the government. Love to him is the caring for another of ones own choosing, without outside interference. The Party usually dictates who can be married, and traditional views of love are generally extinct. Even parents and their own children seem not to love one another. Winston whole tryst with Julia is his desire for an unregulated relationship in which he can express feelings for someone without fear of betrayal.

Freedom - to Winston, the most important aspect of freedom is the right to do and say what you want, not what the Party says you must. Winston craves for the right to be able to do what he desires without the constant threat of detection. The Party defines this idea as slavery, as the person is robbed of identity alone. Only together can any one man hope to live on in his efforts to better the Party and therefore the group defines him.

I also wanted to share my thoughts on the end of 1984. I felt that Orwell had the greatest shocker of all time! Sure, I could easily see something like that coming but it still has the emotional power to deeply unsettle me. I find it much more realistic than the traditional hopeful ending of most dystopian novel (Fahrenheit 451). I thought that the entire point Orwell was trying to emphasize was that there is a point which every person can be driven over and never come back. There are tortures so horrible that even the most strong-willed person will be broken--which is Winston's fate. Orwell challenges the optimistic belief that people can be saved within their minds, and that if we withdraw there we can be saved. Orwell says that instead this is the place of our undoing, as the fears that we have can be exploited to drive us almost insane, willing to do anything. It is this message that hit me when I read the last four words in 1984.

Finally, I was impressed by George Orwell's amazing power of writing. By Part 3, I had started to see the logic in the Party's definition of truth and freedom! I was somewhat disturbed by this, as I knew these ideas were clearly wrong, but he twists everything up so much that I could no longer say that what i had believed was right. So by the end of the novel, I felt as if I had been 'converted' into a Party member myself.

[bethany_CA]

can anyone give me any ideas on this essay title, its a comparative piece on the dystopias The handmaids Tale and 1984;

'Compare and contrast the presentation of relationships as a means of survival in the novels'?

Im trying to think of different themes of relationships to compare between the two; at the moment im thinking about the way in communication is prohibited and therefore the risk of the relationships and why they are so important. Also how they help or hinder the protagonists in rebelling against the party machines, and the way in which the past is consolidated and how this presents a possibility of hope of change.

the forging of human bonds to keep in touch with their humanity.

Any help much appreciated

[gujuprinz]

In Relation to "The Handmaid's Tale":
After reading "A Modest Proposal" by Dr. Jonathan Swift, the clear connection between "The Handmaid's Tale" and "A Modest Proposal" can be seen. In both of these stories, the women have a lower role in society, and they are seen as "sex machines". Why are the women given this type of role in both the novel and the excerpt? Well after reading both the novel and the excerpt, it can clearly be seen that women are used in this form because men are usually the main leader's in society, and women have physical weaknesses that reject them to fight back. This shows that women are shown weak in literature, and therefore they are unable to fight back and defend themselves.

In both the novel and the excerpt, men are seen as the savers of society, and they are the ones that could do anything they desired. They could even fulfill their lustful desires without worrying about anything. Why is this so? And what does this say about the role of men in literature? Well after looking at both the novel and the excerpt, men have the freedom to do anything they desire because they are usually the leaders of society. And since women are under them in society, men usually have control over the women. This shows that men in literature are usually the leaders, and therefore they are shown as the strong characters.

[asdf99]

The Handmaid’s Tale has many qualities of dystopian literature. The society in the novel is opposite from utopia, and presents the world in all its negative aspects. The novel shows how warfare and technological advances have left the Republic of Gilead in a very bad position. The handmaids are seen only as bearers of children, and are used as machines in the process. Women who in Pre-Gildeadean times were mothers and wives now have to take on a roles of Handmaid’s, listening to a twisted form of religion that justifies what they are forced to do. In the Republic of Gilead women are enslaved, tortured, and not allowed the feeling of love or enjoyment- the embodiment of dystopia. Another Dystopian element of the novel is the existence of the Colonies. The Presence of these colonies show that the Gilead society has no value for women’s lives and that there is no belief in redemption. Overall, the biggest dystopian element is that the leaders of Gilead have convinced all their subjects that the republic is better for them than the old society was. They emphasize that this control of women makes them protected and should make them feel important- creating what the society reveres the most. This belief forced upon the people of Gilead through twisted bible readings and stern rule enforcement shows that the society is truly dystopian.

[asdf99]

The Historical Notes show that the republic of Gilead was formed on the basis of many things that existed before it. Offred’s narrative about the pre-Gilead period shows the reader what flaws the Gilead Regime wanted to fix in society. The revolution shows the change in the status of woman, and the actual Gilead period shows many flaws in the new societal ways.

The analysis in the Historical notes shows that the post-Gilead period might have been a mixture of ideals in the Pre-Gilead period and Gilead period. I find Pieixoto’s comments about judging the Gilead period very interesting. He says that Gilead should not be judged too harshly because all such judgments are “culturally conditioned”. The novel gears the reader towards sympathizing with Offred, and disapproving of the actions of Gilead.

Pieixoto’s appeal of understanding suggests that such moral ambivalence sows seeds for future evils. He discusses her as a part in achieving the goal of reproduction, belittling her tale as only a crumb of history. This shows that even societies like ours and like professor Pieixoto’s that are considered progressive still hold seeds from the Gilead period, a period of oppression of women.

[asdf99]

Throughout our English course over the year, we've examine the aspect are often used to demonstrate a certain aspect of a character/characters (e.g. see my post on Nathan Price in The Poisonwood Bible). The same seems to true for Handmaid's Tale, except the religious aspect of the society is to demonstrate a common element in dsytopian novels: a deceptive societal goal. Firstly, let's start off by examining the name of the society, which is Gilead. Gilead is a religious reference to the Bible and it describes an area that was a peaceful and healing area. Yet, in reality, Gilead in the novel is the extreme opposite for the women. This is demonstrated by Offred's pain due to her new life: "I want her back. I want everything back, the way it was" (Atwood 122). Offred is filled with despair for her child and her husband are both far waay from her. She claims that "[t]here's nobody [she] can love, all the peoople [she] could love are dead or elsewhere" (103). This seems to quite a healing society huh? (being quite sarcastic there). Also, the concept of peace in this society is laughable for there is wall full of hangings! Thus, it can be concluded that this biblical allusion is used in an ironic sense.
Yet, it seems the majority of the allusions are used in an ironic sense. The Book of Job is another one for it is primarily about Job being tested by having Satan taking things away from him and Job not blaming God at all. Although this is taught to the society members to be willing to sacrifice everything for God but even those in power don't follow this and they make the Handmaids sacrifice all of their positions. This is seen by the existance of the black market (the Wives get Cigarettes and the Commanders get Vogue).
So, the main question is, why are the religious illusions used ironically. Well, I believe it is to show that the goal is deceptive for no one is healed nor does anyone seem to be paid for the sacrifice. The is a perfect element to demonstrate a dystopia and perhaps that's why Atwood used the allusions in this manner.

Closing thought: "Bible is kept locked up" (87) in this society: it's the source of truth. Therefore, the truth is hidden from the eyes of those that are powerless to be able to use the powerful tool of religion to justify their sinful desire for power.

The religious reference to the bible of the name Gilead shows how dystopian the novel is. The Gilead in the bible is an area that was peaceful and healing, while in the Handmaid’s tale does the contrary to women. Gilead was supposedly intended to be peaceful and healing (fixing of the low birth rates, and the effects of the environmental degradation), but instead its created resulted in the opposite of that for women. It didn’t even achieve its original goals at all; with the commanders being sterile towards old age, most women did not get impregnated by them.

[asdf99]

In Relation to "The Handmaid's Tale":
After reading "A Modest Proposal" by Dr. Jonathan Swift, the clear connection between "The Handmaid's Tale" and "A Modest Proposal" can be seen. In both of these stories, the women have a lower role in society, and they are seen as "sex machines". Why are the women given this type of role in both the novel and the excerpt? Well after reading both the novel and the excerpt, it can clearly be seen that women are used in this form because men are usually the main leader's in society, and women have physical weaknesses that reject them to fight back. This shows that women are shown weak in literature, and therefore they are unable to fight back and defend themselves.

In both the novel and the excerpt, men are seen as the savers of society, and they are the ones that could do anything they desired. They could even fulfill their lustful desires without worrying about anything. Why is this so? And what does this say about the role of men in literature? Well after looking at both the novel and the excerpt, men have the freedom to do anything they desire because they are usually the leaders of society. And since women are under them in society, men usually have control over the women. This shows that men in literature are usually the leaders, and therefore they are shown as the strong characters.

In response to gujuprinz, I have some more to say about the society view of women in this period that you mentioned.

“I used to think of my body as an instrument, of pleasure, or a means of transportation, or an implement for the accomplishment of my will . . . Now I’m a cloud, congealed around a central object… which is hard and more real than I am”

This passage shows the contrast between how women were seen before and during the Gileadean period. The passage refers to Offred’s old and new view of herself, which embodies the change of society she lives through. Before Gilead she saw her body as an instrument and the main embodiment of her character. Now she thinks her body is only important because of its child bearing abilities. Offred’s new view shows that she has taken in Gilead’s attidute toward women, treating them not as special and different individuals, but more like uniform objects that can deliver what the society needs.

[boom^boom]

The Historical Notes show that the republic of Gilead was formed on the basis of many things that existed before it. Offred’s narrative about the pre-Gilead period shows the reader what flaws the Gilead Regime wanted to fix in society. The revolution shows the change in the status of woman, and the actual Gilead period shows many flaws in the new societal ways.

The analysis in the Historical notes shows that the post-Gilead period might have been a mixture of ideals in the Pre-Gilead period and Gilead period. I find Pieixoto’s comments about judging the Gilead period very interesting. He says that Gilead should not be judged too harshly because all such judgments are “culturally conditioned”. The novel gears the reader towards sympathizing with Offred, and disapproving of the actions of Gilead.

Pieixoto’s appeal of understanding suggests that such moral ambivalence sows seeds for future evils. He discusses her as a part in achieving the goal of reproduction, belittling her tale as only a crumb of history. This shows that even societies like ours and like professor Pieixoto’s that are considered progressive still hold seeds from the Gilead period, a period of oppression of women.


I don't think Pieixoto was belittling Offred. Seeing as how his entire lecture was based off of the intel she gave him and his compatriots, I doubt that he had anything but gratitude and respect for her. The lecture shows the difference between the Gileadean era and the one Pieixoto is speaking in. With the new (and at the same time old) freedom they have been given, men like Pieixoto can explore the past more freely. This freedom, however, would not have come into existence without the help of women like Offred and her friend Ofglen.

[boom^boom]

The end of the handmaid's tale ruined the "surprise" element of the book. Remember in "Inception", at the end where everybody in the theater stood up and cussed at the screen? That's the feeling at the end of the handmaid's tale, without the historical background. Lois Lowry didn't reveal what happened to Jonas at the end of "The Giver", and that was the whole idea. The reader is supposed to fill in the blanks for his/herself. With the historical background coming in at the end of Handmaid's tale, that element is removed to a degree. No, Pieixoto does not reveal what happened to Offred, but he does reveal how they got from point A to point B. Why even put it in the manuscript? What does it ADD to the reader's experience?

[fruit loops!]

One aspect of the historical notes that I found to be very important was Atwood decision to make the time gap between when Offred actually lived through the Gilead regime and the analysis on her perspective of the events which took place. The reason this time gap is important is because it seemed that Atwood wanted the reader to pay attention to the fact that the time gap allows the people analyzing Offred to develop their own opinion regarding the regime and to be able to look back at the regime and determine whether it was really worth the struggle or if it was even really necessary at all. This time gap also makes the novel seem a lot more realistic to me. It reminds me of Anne Frank’s Diary, and how Offred like Anne Frank lived through a very traumatic and horrible time period, yet she manages to keep some sort normalcy in her life, even if it is a constant routine or something as simple as interaction with a male. Also it reminds me of how in middle school kids are taught about Anne Frank’s Diary and the Holocaust, and in the “Historical Notes” the people attending the seminars are doing the same thing, only instead they are studying Offred’s recollection of the Gilead Regime and they are learning about all aspects involved in the Gilead Regime itself. Theses aspects combined also make the novel seem more dystopian which might have been Atwood’s goal all along.

[fruit loops!]

The end of the handmaid's tale ruined the "surprise" element of the book. Remember in "Inception", at the end where everybody in the theater stood up and cussed at the screen? That's the feeling at the end of the handmaid's tale, without the historical background. Lois Lowry didn't reveal what happened to Jonas at the end of "The Giver", and that was the whole idea. The reader is supposed to fill in the blanks for his/herself. With the historical background coming in at the end of Handmaid's tale, that element is removed to a degree. No, Pieixoto does not reveal what happened to Offred, but he does reveal how they got from point A to point B. Why even put it in the manuscript? What does it ADD to the reader's experience?

I think that the fact that the historical notes are added at the end of the novel gives the novel itself a more realistic touch. Keeping in mind that the novel is dystopian, shouldn’t a dystopian author to want to make the novel seem as realistic as possible? When learning about history we already know what happened and what the end result was, yet we still learn the little details involved in the event, and are not able to fill in the blanks our selves because it was history. By adding in the Historical notes, to me it seems as if this is exactly what Atwood was aiming for. I think that she wanted her readers to read the novel and in the end feel as if it really could happen in their world, that it could be their future, and people would eventually discuss that future in the same way the characters of the historical notes discuss the Gilead Regime. Also, even though at the end, we learn that Offred did manage to escape into hiding, the reader can still fill in the blanks for him or herself regarding what happened to Offred after she went into hiding.

[rachmaninoff]

I liked how Atwood had everything almost reverse itself in the end. This relates back to the "nature always wins" theme. Back during the time of exploration, the Europeans brought their diseases and greed which wiped out the Native Americans. Then during the time of The Handmaid's Tale, many of the Gileadeans wiped themselves out with toxins and poisons from the war and the colonies. About the people with odd names in 2195, I think this symbolizes both an increase in Native Americans and the ability for one to choose his/her own name. With the Caucasian population so low, all the minority groups have probably become the majorities. However, I think this favors the ability to pick names because I mean, after being oppressed for so long, the least someone could be allowed to do is to pick their name, especially since the handmaids couldn't even use their biological names during Gilead.

[boom^boom]

The names in this thing were awesome. I liked how Offred not only means that the commander's name was Fred, but also references the red color of the handmaid's dresses. When the Commander takes Offred to the jezebels, she gets to change clothes, and take the "red" "Off". This symbolizes a return, sort of, to her old life. Because she is not really Offred, she has a normal name, just as Ofwarren is really Janine. The same thing happens when she goes to Nick. She gets to remove her new life for a while, and return to what she used to be able to do with Luke. The way that Atwood works subtle things like that is really interesting.

On a totally different note, what were the significance of the greetings said between the handmaids? I didn't recognize them, hopefully someone can help me out with how that connects to the religious aspect of Gilead.

[rachmaninoff]

The names in this thing were awesome. I liked how Offred not only means that the commander's name was Fred, but also references the red color of the handmaid's dresses. When the Commander takes Offred to the jezebels, she gets to change clothes, and take the "red" "Off". This symbolizes a return, sort of, to her old life. Because she is not really Offred, she has a normal name, just as Ofwarren is really Janine. The same thing happens when she goes to Nick. She gets to remove her new life for a while, and return to what she used to be able to do with Luke. The way that Atwood works subtle things like that is really interesting.

I agree with this quote, and going off that, I thought the color symbolism was very appropriate for this novel. The Handmaids' red dresses reminded me of Hester Prynne's Scarlet Letter "A"; it draws attention to both of these women's sexual status. Atwood did say that Gilead was intentionally similar to the days of the Puritans and their religious intolerance. The red also symbolizes birth and blood. The wives' blue clothes symbolizes their sadness and frustration that they can't have kids, and the commanders' black items symbolize the power and (in Fred the Commander's case) evil for placing women in such an inferior place.

[rachmaninoff]

I found it interesting how the guardmen are called Angels. Yes, the guards are protecting the women, but they're also forcing them to stay and give away their futures to be handmaids. Angels are supposed to help people and be in heaven, but the women can't even talk to the Angels or anything. Gilead is definitely not heaven...more like the opposite. :devil:

A really sad part of this novel is when Offred is singing Amazing Grace with the messed up lyrics (54). If there is one word that doesn't describe Offred, it's definitely the word "free". It's sad how the Aunts teach that women have to "walk along the same street, in red pairs" (24) with no freedom whatsoever just so men won't "shout obscenities" (24) at them. The women of Gilead are brainwashed to believe that they are free. So Offred is free of being free, which actually means being a servant for life.

[sal7861]

1. Since the form of government in The Handmaid's Tale is a theocracy, religion (Bible) based, shouldn't access to the Bible be easier? Not being "kept locked up, the way people once kept tea locked up" (87)

2. After Offred and Ofglen see the old church they "turn our [Offred and Ofglen] backs on the church and there is the thing we've in truth come to see: the Wall" (31) Is the presence of the Wall being right in front of the church a symbol or a message that the Gildean government has in mind?
I was thinking that it could be like those saying, "die in front of god", thats why it is in front of the church. I am not sure about it.

[boom^boom]

The wall, to me is positioned directly accross from the church to show the contrast between the superficial nature of Gilead, and the true fuel of Christianity: sacrifice. Christianity was born out of a public execution. The wall symbolizes the crucifixion of Christ, with the Gileadean government (i.e. Eyes, Guardians, etc.) symbolizing the Romans. Gilead, in its attempt to relinquish those who would oppose it, has unintentionally created a revolution, once again similarly to the way that Jesus was silenced on the cross. Those who die on the wall become martyrs, and represent the sacrifice that Jesus made.

[rachmaninoff]

"So, the main question is, why are the religious illusions used ironically. Well, I believe it is to show that the goal is deceptive for no one is healed nor does anyone seem to be paid for the sacrifice. The is a perfect element to demonstrate a dystopia and perhaps that's why Atwood used the allusions in this manner." (hp4ever)

I think that Atwood used irony to contribute to the dystopian feel of the novel, and it also helps Atwood emphasize her point that "utopian" societies always fail. It's ironic that Gilead, a society supposedly based so much on religion, has a serious lack of religion. Nobody really talks about going to church, and the Aunts and commanders twist the words of the Bible to tell the handmaids that the only thing they are good for is their fertility. If a woman isn't fertile, she's up the creek. Only men are allowed to read the Bible (or anything at all) to keep women oppressed. In a way Gilead is like the Puritan society because the Gileadeans are willing to kill people "in the name of God".

[Generic_Idea]

Throughout our English course over the year, we've examine the aspect are often used to demonstrate a certain aspect of a character/characters (e.g. see my post on Nathan Price in The Poisonwood Bible). The same seems to true for Handmaid's Tale, except the religious aspect of the society is to demonstrate a common element in dsytopian novels: a deceptive societal goal. Firstly, let's start off by examining the name of the society, which is Gilead. Gilead is a religious reference to the Bible and it describes an area that was a peaceful and healing area. Yet, in reality, Gilead in the novel is the extreme opposite for the women. This is demonstrated by Offred's pain due to her new life: "I want her back. I want everything back, the way it was" (Atwood 122). Offred is filled with despair for her child and her husband are both far waay from her. She claims that "[t]here's nobody [she] can love, all the peoople [she] could love are dead or elsewhere" (103). This seems to quite a healing society huh? (being quite sarcastic there). Also, the concept of peace in this society is laughable for there is wall full of hangings! Thus, it can be concluded that this biblical allusion is used in an ironic sense.
Yet, it seems the majority of the allusions are used in an ironic sense. The Book of Job is another one for it is primarily about Job being tested by having Satan taking things away from him and Job not blaming God at all. Although this is taught to the society members to be willing to sacrifice everything for God but even those in power don't follow this and they make the Handmaids sacrifice all of their positions. This is seen by the existance of the black market (the Wives get Cigarettes and the Commanders get Vogue).
So, the main question is, why are the religious illusions used ironically. Well, I believe it is to show that the goal is deceptive for no one is healed nor does anyone seem to be paid for the sacrifice. The is a perfect element to demonstrate a dystopia and perhaps that's why Atwood used the allusions in this manner.

Closing thought: "Bible is kept locked up" (87) in this society: it's the source of truth. Therefore, the truth is hidden from the eyes of those that are powerless to be able to use the powerful tool of religion to justify their sinful desire for power.

The Irony may also be showing how some people think they are doing the right thing by doing this to the handmaid's. Of course there are people who don't truly car about religion, but there are still those that offred is afraid might, "be a real believer... I can't take the risk" (Atwood 19). Atwood may be warning people; following something or someone blindly can have great consequences, as seen in the rule of Gilead.

[boom^boom]

1. Since the form of government in The Handmaid's Tale is a theocracy, religion (Bible) based, shouldn't access to the Bible be easier? Not being "kept locked up, the way people once kept tea locked up" (87)

2. After Offred and Ofglen see the old church they "turn our [Offred and Ofglen] backs on the church and there is the thing we've in truth come to see: the Wall" (31) Is the presence of the Wall being right in front of the church a symbol or a message that the Gildean government has in mind?
I was thinking that it could be like those saying, "die in front of god", thats why it is in front of the church. I am not sure about it.

The Gileadan government is not a true theocracy. This is what separates Gilead from the Puritans; the Gileadeans are a vindictive, power-hungry government raised in depotism instead of piety. They keep the bible locked away to keep their subjects to keep them from learning the way, similar to the way that the Southern plantation owners kept their slaves from reading. Reading gives knowledge, and knowledge gives power, which is exactly what the Gileadeans want to prevent.

[boom^boom]

1. Why is there still football in Gilead? Who decided that football, a horribly violent sport that does very little good for one's physical/mental health, was ok, while things like reading and scrabble weren't?

2. What is the significance of the aunt's names? Offred references Aunt Lydia about 4349869583444309 times, which makes me wonder if it has some sort of connotation that I missed?

[rachmaninoff]

1. Since the form of government in The Handmaid's Tale is a theocracy, religion (Bible) based, shouldn't access to the Bible be easier? Not being "kept locked up, the way people once kept tea locked up" (87)

2. After Offred and Ofglen see the old church they "turn our [Offred and Ofglen] backs on the church and there is the thing we've in truth come to see: the Wall" (31) Is the presence of the Wall being right in front of the church a symbol or a message that the Gildean government has in mind?
I was thinking that it could be like those saying, "die in front of god", thats why it is in front of the church. I am not sure about it.
Answering #2, I think that the placement of the wall is a message. It shows the religious irony of this novel because religion is something that's supposed to unite people, not divide them, and the Gileadean government uses God (symbolized by the Eyes, Angels, and Guardians) to control by means of fear. Atwood shows the duality in Gilead by putting the wall across from the Church. The Gileadean government tells its inhabitants to praise and cherish God, but at the same time, they tell people that going against the government (God) will send them to the grave or colonies, good old human sacrifice. The placement of the wall shows how messed up Gilead really is.

[heath24]

1. Since the form of government in The Handmaid's Tale is a theocracy, religion (Bible) based, shouldn't access to the Bible be easier? Not being "kept locked up, the way people once kept tea locked up" (87)


Essentially this is how the society "should" work. I believe Atwood is clearly demonstrating how in this society everything seems pretty backwards. The fact that they (the men) lock up the bible shows that they don't really want the wome to be truely pious. Instead it seems that this government is using religion as an excuse to keep its' people, especially women, in line. By not having a wide spread of people know the Bible, there will be no new interpretations or counter ideas that the government will have to deal with. If this society was actually based off God, not only would the bible be there for anyone to read, the churches would not be closed, and the bible would not have been changed to fit the government's will.

[asdf99]

I found some more religious references in The Handmaids Tale. The servants in the house that Offred lives in are called “Marthas”. This is a religious reference to Martha, sister of Mary and Lazarus in the New Testament. She was a friend and follower of Jesus, and her reputation was one of working hard managing her brothers home. Her joy was to welcome others into her home- she had the gift of hospitality.

The name “Handmaid” also refers to the Old Testament. A reference to this can be found in the epigraph:
“And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister, and said unto jacob, Give me Children, or else I die......And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her”.

In this passage we see that Rachel insists that her husband Jacob bed his handmaid because Rachel is unable to conceive a child. This passage is what Gilead uses to justify its actions by forcing women into being handmaids. Gilead uses this biblical scene in a twisted way, simply as a political maneuver to make the citizens of Gilead believe that they are doing the right thing.

[Generic_Idea]

1. Since the form of government in The Handmaid's Tale is a theocracy, religion (Bible) based, shouldn't access to the Bible be easier? Not being "kept locked up, the way people once kept tea locked up" (87)

The so called "theocracy" is a hypocrisy. The Commanders claim to be so holy, but in such a restricted society they are the ones doing the worst acts, such as visiting a brothel like, "Jezebel's" (Atwood 249). The Commanders want to have control and do what they want. They use the Bible in a very cautious way, only using select passages. The society was taken with the word of God so it has to be maintained in the same way. If someone who didn't support the theocracy were to have access to the Bible the whole government could have been overthrown alot sooner.

[asdf99]

The fact that Gilead uses passages from the bible, picking and choosing only the ones that will help promote the ideology of the regime, can be seen in many parts of the novel. The greeting ritual between the Handmaids consist of set phrases such as “may the lord be open” (29). This not only shows biblical allusion, but also shows how the women are forced to act, being compelled to say phrases of religious nature. It also represent the passivity of their situation. They are not allowed to lead personal conversations and express their own opinions; they have to follow exactly what the leaders of Gilead want them to be. This can be seen in a passage when Offred and Ofglen go on their daily walk:
“The war is going well, I hear,” she says,
“praise be” I reply,
“we’ve been sent good weather.”
“Which I receive with joy” (19)

[heath24]

The names in this thing were awesome. I liked how Offred not only means that the commander's name was Fred, but also references the red color of the handmaid's dresses. When the Commander takes Offred to the jezebels, she gets to change clothes, and take the "red" "Off". This symbolizes a return, sort of, to her old life. Because she is not really Offred, she has a normal name, just as Ofwarren is really Janine. The same thing happens when she goes to Nick. She gets to remove her new life for a while, and return to what she used to be able to do with Luke. The way that Atwood works subtle things like that is really interesting.

On a totally different note, what were the significance of the greetings said between the handmaids? I didn't recognize them, hopefully someone can help me out with how that connects to the religious aspect of Gilead.


The names of the handmaid's show whom they "belong to". For example in the historical notes we learn that there are, "two whose names incorporate the element Fred." (306) The narrator's name means she is "Of Fred". Similarly Ofwarren, belongs to man named Warren. This is important to the novel because it further helps the women in the society loose their identity. A name helps say who you are and now that they are restricted Offred does not know how to find people she knows and not loose herself. This re-naming seems like a rather smart idea by the new theocracy so that opposition cannot form too strong.

[rachmaninoff]

1) How come nobody cares about seeing a Martha's face, but everyone cares about seeing a Handmaid's face?


2) What's the significance of Offred comparing everything in the Gileadean city to a museum?

[Generic_Idea]

What is the purpose of the prologue? To me it almost felt like it was saying it is ok to take drastic action in drastic times, but the whole book is about showing how awful the consequences of such actions can be. Is this supposed to be irony, or is there some message that was lost upon me. Also I like how it was almost a flowing story, but in truth it is three different passages. Is there any signifigance to this? It it showing that this is a universal idea?

[asdf99]

The so called "theocracy" is a hypocrisy. The Commanders claim to be so holy, but in such a restricted society they are the ones doing the worst acts, such as visiting a brothel like, "Jezebel's" (Atwood 249). The Commanders want to have control and do what they want. They use the Bible in a very cautious way, only using select passages. The society was taken with the word of God so it has to be maintained in the same way. If someone who didn't support the theocracy were to have access to the Bible the whole government could have been overthrown alot sooner.

The passages that the commander reads the wives are only selected because they support the ideology of the republic of Gilead. The passages are used to brainwash the women into thinking that they are doing what is good for society. What’s also significant is that Offred knows that the passages read to her are not the original ones form the bible, but she cannot look up the original words because reading is prohibited and the bible is locked away. The fact that it is locked away shows importance in that it is done to prevent the people from forming their own opinions about the way things should be.
“who knows what we'd make of it, if we ever got our hands on it? We can be read to from it, by him, but we cannot read.” (94)

[heath24]

When Offred is observing the room she has been moved to for being a handmaid she states, "There's a hard little cushion on it, with a petit cover: Faith." (57) Why is it important that Offred finds this word whcich has a religious connaotation as opposed to any other word?

[heath24]

Why does Atwood change words in religious text such as "ceremony" and "prayvaganzas" in the Gilead regime?

[Generic_Idea]

Why is the wife present in the Ceremony? Is there a precedent for this in the Bible? Why would they cause the wives this much heart ache? The Commander could just go have the ceremony and the wife could stay in the livingroom or something.

[taztara158]

1) How come nobody cares about seeing a Martha's face, but everyone cares about seeing a Handmaid's face?


2) What's the significance of Offred comparing everything in the Gileadean city to a museum?

1)In the Gileadean society, the handmaid's are hidden to avoid them from showing off their bodies. The government thinks that if the handmaids do not have any freedom, they won't have any temptations. Their only job is to produce offspring. Showing off any part of their body is dangerous because it suggests that they do not take their duty seriously. The Marthas are not capable of having kids. Therefor they have more freedom because any temptations won't matter to them.

2)I don't believe Offred compares everything to a museum, but the church was turned into one by the Gileadean government- "The church is a small one, one of the first erected here, hundreds of years ago. It isn't used anymore, except as a museum. Inside it you can see paintings of women in long somber dresses, their hair covered by white caps..." (41). It's interesting that the government turned the church into a museum. It shows how the government changes all aspects of religion to fit their goals. The museum also sensors what it shows. The paintings of women are dressed exactly like the handmaids- long dresses with white wings. This shows how much of an influence the government has on every aspect of society, even religion.

[taztara158]

When Offred is observing the room she has been moved to for being a handmaid she states, "There's a hard little cushion on it, with a petit cover: Faith." (57) Why is it important that Offred finds this word whcich has a religious connaotation as opposed to any other word?

The word "faith" is one that describes Offred's view of her situation. During the time she is a handmaid she has hope that things will go back to normal. For example, she likes to think of where her husband Luke may be. She comes up with 3 different scenarios he could be in. She concludes by saying, "The things I believe can't all be true, though one of them must be. But I believe in all of them, all three versions of Luke, at one and the same time...Whatever the truth is, I will be ready for it" (135). This shows that she knows her husband is somewhere. The pillow serves as a way to symbolize Offred's hope for her old life. Though the government may think this pillow means faith to become pregnant, Offred still holds onto the original meaning of faith by continuing to believe things will be alright.

[taztara158]

The wives are able to buy prayers at the Soul Scrolls store. Why is it important that the only prayers they can order are "for health, wealth, a death, a birth, a sin" (216)? (in chapter 27)

[taztara158]

Offred at one time asks "Which of us is it worse for, [Serena Joy] or me?" (123 - right before chapter 17) Both wives and handmaid's have to give up a lot in this society, but is one situation worse than the other?

[hello:)]

In the Handmaid's Tale, since the Church and State are not separated, to what extent are the outcomes different from our world?

[hello:)]

In the Handmaid's Tale, to what extent does Atwood use religious references so that the readers could understand the novel?

[hello:)]

The Handmaid’s Tale has many qualities of dystopian literature. The society in the novel is opposite from utopia, and presents the world in all its negative aspects. The novel shows how warfare and technological advances have left the Republic of Gilead in a very bad position. The handmaids are seen only as bearers of children, and are used as machines in the process. Women who in Pre-Gildeadean times were mothers and wives now have to take on a roles of Handmaid’s, listening to a twisted form of religion that justifies what they are forced to do. In the Republic of Gilead women are enslaved, tortured, and not allowed the feeling of love or enjoyment- the embodiment of dystopia.Overall, the biggest dystopian element is that the leaders of Gilead have convinced all their subjects that the republic is better for them than the old society was. They emphasize that this control of women makes them protected and should make them feel important- creating what the society reveres the most. This belief forced upon the people of Gilead through twisted bible readings and stern rule enforcement shows that the society is truly dystopian.

Not only does religion justify what the government is doing but it also helps the readers better understand the situation. It allows the reader engage more and more in their religion so that if this kind of situation ever happened to them, they can recognize when they are being told the truth and when the truth is twisted. The fact that the Gileadean government is hypocritical is similar to the Puritans in the Crucible. Both the governments were on the same page, except one of them knows that they are hypocritical and the other does not.

[hello:)]

Why is the wife present in the Ceremony? Is there a precedent for this in the Bible? Why would they cause the wives this much heart ache? The Commander could just go have the ceremony and the wife could stay in the livingroom or something.

Well, one of the epigraphs from the beginning of the book was from Genesis 30:1-3. "And [Rachel] said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her." I think Rachel says that Jacob should use my maid and have kids with her, which will be mine. But when you both perform the ceremony, "she shall bear upon my knees." It seems like this is where the Gileadean government got the idea from. To the Gileadean government, the wives are supposed to be happy. But only the wives know that the ceremony is heart-aching and they are probably not allowed to say anything even though they are from the highest caste.

[cookies55]

Offred at one time asks "Which of us is it worse for, [Serena Joy] or me?" (123 - right before chapter 17) Both wives and handmaid's have to give up a lot in this society, but is one situation worse than the other?

The most important aspect in the Gileadean society is power: the control of it, the use of it to subjugate individuals, the total relinquishment of it, etc. All women, just as you pointed out, have to give up their previous "power" over their male counterparts regardless of their social status. The quote you provided is one that Offred reflects upon right after the first Ceremony that is described in the novel. While it is awful for Serena Joy to have to watch her husband have sex with another woman, it is equally as difficult for Offred to take part in the Ceremony. However, to answer your question, I believe that Offred's situation is worse than that of Serena Joy, mainly regarding the aspect of power. Although both women give up their power in the male-dominated society, Serena Joy still has the power in her household to order Offred and the Marthas around. She is still seen as the "Mistress" of the household and while lacking power over men, she has significant power over other women because of her social status. I believe this power is something that helps keeps the Wives sane, while the Handmaids are always a little over the edge. Wives are allowed to knit and garden while Handmaids are allowed to sit and have sex, which is a reflection of their social status. For example when Offred is exploring her room she tells the reader that "I had a lot of time to pass" (Atwood 50), and the inference is that she had nothing to do with all this time. A little power in this sort of situation is better than none.

[weezyhaahhh]

In the Handmaid's Tale, since the Church and State are not separated, to what extent are the outcomes different from our world?

In my point of view, the Church and State are in fact separated. When Offred first describes the church across from the Wall, she describes it as "a small one, one of the first erected here, hundreds of years ago. It isn't used anymore, except as a museum...Admission is free" (31). Despite the fact that specific verses are chosen from the Bible to be used to promote the traditions of the Gilead, there is no account of actually attending Church. This is similar to the Church and State of the United States. We see phrases such as "In God We Trust" but Christianity is not denoted as the "official" language. There is no law requiring citizens to be Protestant. In comparison, Gilead does persecute other religions. Though their official denomination is not known, we see the use of the Wall beside the church museum: persecution of those against the government, including priests of several Christian denominations.

[cookies55]

In the Handmaid's Tale, to what extent does Atwood use religious references so that the readers could understand the novel?

Atwood uses religious references in the novel mainly as a form of irony which also helps to emphasize the dystopian aspects of the novel. For example, she uses the word "Ceremony" to describe sex between the Commander and the Handmaid. "Ceremony" normally has a positive connotation of something that is happy, pious, and religious in nature. Instead, Atwood uses it in this context as something that is negative and has more of a clinical nature than we would normally think. This exemplifies the dystopian nature of the novel, in that a seemingly religious event is turned into something used by the government to exert control. At the same time, Atwood's religious references also represent the theme of duality she portrays throughout her novel. The above example also shows this idea. One of the epigraphs from the beginning of the novel is a quote from the Bible extolling the very same event that is described in Atwood's "Ceremony." So in this way, the "Ceremony" does have a religious undertone to it, and Atwood uses both the religious and seemingly devilish aspects of the "Ceremony" to illustrate the theme of duality that has been evident in all literature we have read so far in class. Also the "Ceremony" is just one example of Atwood's religious perversion. Some others include the "Angels" and "Guardians", "Jezebel's", and the many parts when Scripture is quoted incorrectly throughout the course of the novel. Atwood's religious references help the reader to better understand the society in which the novel takes place, as well as the dystopian nature and duality Atwood portrays during The Handmaid's Tale.

[cookies55]

What is the religious or any other significance of the name of the club that the Commander takes Offred to? "Let, hell, they encourage it. Know what they call this place among themselves? Jezebel's" (Atwood 249).
I discovered that she was a princess in the Bible, if this helps.

[cookies55]

How do the words "Love" and "Faith", typically associated with religion and the Bible, play into Offred's journey? To what degree do they help her keep her hope alive and exist as long as she does or to what degree do they prevent her from fully assimilating into the Gileadean culture, therefore putting herself at a disadvantage for survival?

[sal7861]

"Faith" is found on the pillow. Its like her only connection to the past, because women could read in the past. She says, "I can spend minutes, tens of minutes, running my eyes over the print: FAITH. Its the only thing they've given me to read." (57) This is like her escape from the harsh Gildean society

[gujuprinz]

"Faith" is found on the pillow. Its like her only connection to the past, because women could read in the past. She says, "I can spend minutes, tens of minutes, running my eyes over the print: FAITH. Its the only thing they've given me to read." (57) This is like her escape from the harsh Gildean society

I also think that the "Faith" found on the pillow shows that she will be able to escape the Gildean Period if she tries her hardest and doesnt lose her hope. Many have tried to escape from the Gildean society, but it's just so impossible because of the "Eye" always keeping an eye on the people. And going with the quote, "I can spend minutes, tens of minutes, running my eyes over the print: FAITH. Its the only thing they've given me to read" (57), a possible conclusion could be made that the word was "shown" to her to give hope to successfuly escape the Gildean society.

[gujuprinz]

How do the words "Love" and "Faith", typically associated with religion and the Bible, play into Offred's journey? To what degree do they help her keep her hope alive and exist as long as she does or to what degree do they prevent her from fully assimilating into the Gileadean culture, therefore putting herself at a disadvantage for survival?

The word "love", typically associated with religion and the Bible plays into Offred's journey because it helps Offred realize that even though the men have been using the women as "sex machines", and they dont really love them, there is still some other source of love that Offred could recieve. The commander in the novel starts to have an "affair" with Offred by calling Offred to his office. There, they play scrabble and read magazines, in which Offred starts to "love" the Commander. In this way, Offred kind of has an escape from the Gildean society because the commander provides her with everything.

[gujuprinz]

What significance is Margaret Atwood trying to show by using Christian Religious names as the characer's names? Is she trying to set up the society by using these names?

[gujuprinz]

In what extent is Chrisitanity used to manage the society in the Gildean Period? And what point is Margaret Atwood trying to get to by doing this?

[kira1234]

How are the events in the past that are related to religion as a power/weakness mechanism (ex: persecution of the Jews in Germany)similar to the treatment of the people in the Gilead society according to their religion?

[kira1234]

How are the events in the past that are related to religion as a power/weakness mechanism (ex: persecution of the Jews in Germany)similar to the treatment of the people in the Gilead society according to their religion?

[kira1234]

In what extent is Chrisitanity used to manage the society in the Gildean Period? And what point is Margaret Atwood trying to get to by doing this?
The Bible says "Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” Atwood creates a society where the Handmaids are basically the slaves of the higher classes (the Commander). The quote from the bible which refers to the love between and a women is transformed in order to give a reason to the women in society for why they must bare childeren for the family of the Commander. This is the reason why women are radically subordinate in the Gileaden society. Furthermore, the typical bearing of a child is a result of two people in love but in this society the women do not pray to find the man that they will have a family with but they pray directly that "Give me children, or else I die. Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb? Behold my maid Bilhah. She shall bear upon my knees, that i may also have children by her" (Atwood, 88).

[kira1234]

It is important that all the women only pray for the same certain things because women are not allowed to be exposed to anything, for example even reading. In the Gilead society women are only used for one thing, and that is children. If every aspect of there life is isolated and limited, to gain further control even their prayers are monitored. Furthermore, they all pray for the same thing. "Oh God, the King of the universe, thank you for not creating me a man. Oh God, obliterate me. Make me fruitful. Mortify my flesh, that I may be multiplied. Let me be fulfiilled..." (Atwood, 194).

[VintagaGirl]

How are the events in the past that are related to religion as a power/weakness mechanism (ex: persecution of the Jews in Germany)similar to the treatment of the people in the Gilead society according to their religion?

Well, they are similar in the fact that in both situations, a powerful force makes people under their control believe that other group(s) of people are "wrong" in some way. During the Holocaust, obviously, Hitler led the Nazi army to believe that all Jews were to be hated and killed, alongside handicapped peoples (physically or mentally), homosexuals, Gypsies, etc. In Gileadean society, the government killed many, including doctors who once gave abortions to women (Atwood 32), preists and homosexuals (Atwood 43), Catholics, (Atwood 200), and surely many others.
They are dissimilar, however, because the Holocaust was an event that everyone understood: Hitler hated certain types of people, so he sent out his army to kill them. In Gilead, very few people understand what is actually going on or why so many people are being killed. This is portrayed when Offred is so eager to watch the news, even though she knows it may be fake: "Any news, now, is better than none" (Atwood 82).

[weezyhaahhh]

What is the religious or any other significance of the name of the club that the Commander takes Offred to? "Let, hell, they encourage it. Know what they call this place among themselves? Jezebel's" (Atwood 249).
I discovered that she was a princess in the Bible, if this helps.

The Jezebel in the Bible is also said to have "powers behind the throne". For the text, the club gives women a sense of "freedom", or escape from their normal lives in society. Both reasons go against the norms of society; women do not have power and are assigned specific deeds in Gilead.

In the Bible, Jezebel was also seen as manipulative. While being a princess, she encouraged the worship of Baal, a false idol, over God. In The Handmaid's Tale, the women's bodies can be seen as encouraging, luring the Commanders in for all that "jazz".

[weezyhaahhh]

In the Republic of Gilead, we see store names with Biblical references, such as Milk and Honey (referring to the Holy Lands of Israel) and Loaves and Fish (referring to the miracle of feeding the 5000). What is Atwood hinting at in naming these places after Biblical allusions?

[VintagaGirl]

In the Republic of Gilead, we see store names with Biblical references, such as Milk and Honey (referring to the Holy Lands of Israel) and Loaves and Fish (referring to the miracle of feeding the 5000). What is Atwood hinting at in naming these places after Biblical allusions?

I think that Atwood is trying to emphasise the Bible's effect on the Gileadean society. The only problem is that it seems as though only select portions of the Bible are ever used in society, and even then the passages may be revised: "Blessed are the meek. She didn't go on to say anything about inheriting the earth" (Atwood 64). The importance of the Gileadean practice of using carefully selected Bible passages emphasises the corruption of the society.

[merelyjoshing]

When Offred is observing the room she has been moved to for being a handmaid she states, "There's a hard little cushion on it, with a petit cover: Faith." (57) Why is it important that Offred finds this word whcich has a religious connaotation as opposed to any other word?


"Faith" is found on the pillow. Its like her only connection to the past, because women could read in the past. She says, "I can spend minutes, tens of minutes, running my eyes over the print: FAITH. Its the only thing they've given me to read." (57) This is like her escape from the harsh Gildean society


I also think that the "Faith" found on the pillow shows that she will be able to escape the Gildean Period if she tries her hardest and doesnt lose her hope. Many have tried to escape from the Gildean society, but it's just so impossible because of the "Eye" always keeping an eye on the people. And going with the quote, "I can spend minutes, tens of minutes, running my eyes over the print: FAITH. Its the only thing they've given me to read" (57), a possible conclusion could be made that the word was "shown" to her to give hope to successfuly escape the Gildean society.

I agree with the idea that the word faith on the pillow allows for Offred to keep hope in finding a way out of the society; she may use it as an escape just like all of her flashbacks to the told times with Luke.
However, I also think it may be an allusion to how to Gilead government is similar to a religion. Faith is generally associated with strongly following a religion based on beliefs and not necessarily hard evidence (even though there may be some). The idea of faith can also be applied to people or organizations as it is in the Gilead society. I doubt that the government would accidentally leave the pillow: "It's the only thing they've given me to read" (Atood 57). Therefore, I think that it was placed deliberately to promote a sense of following and belief that the government is doing the right thing, very similar to the names of rituals and people (the ceremony, prayvaganza, handmaid, commander, etc.)

[VintagaGirl]

In The Handmaid's Tale, all handmaids are required to wear a cap with a pair of white "wings" (Atwood 8). The all-seeing Eye also has a pair of white wings (21-22). Why does Atwood give both the powerless handmaid and the extremely powerful eye the same symbolic feature?

[VintagaGirl]

"It strikes me that, although I know he's a Commander, I don't know what he's a Commander of. What does he control, what is is field, as they used to say? They don't have specific titles.
"You might say I'm a sort of scientist," he says" (Atwood 185)
Offred poses an interesting question: What are the Commanders commanding? What do they actually do? Might they be in charge of the entire republic of Gilead? If so, why do they place themselves in the position of fertlizing the handmaids when there are other, younger (and probably much more preferable) men available?

[weezyhaahhh]

Before Offred and the new Ofglen depart, we hear them say the phrase "Under His Eye" to each other (285). Who do you think this "His" is referring to? We have seen many references to the Bible in this novel, so could the society be based on one denomination of Christianity or some other high figure(s) in their society?

[merelyjoshing]

I found it interesting how the guardmen are called Angels. Yes, the guards are protecting the women, but they're also forcing them to stay and give away their futures to be handmaids. Angels are supposed to help people and be in heaven, but the women can't even talk to the Angels or anything. Gilead is definitely not heaven...more like the opposite. :devil:

I think the Angels refers more specifically to the soldiers that are fighting in the religious wars. Besides protecting the women, I think the Gilead government wants to imply that they are going out and spreading what they think is the correct form of religion. In their society, the Angels are doing good and it is normal for the women not to be able to talk to the men. Only the prior knowledge of Offred and our own biases causes us to think that the society is the opposite of a heaven, for some of the people in the society it is.

[merelyjoshing]

Why is it important that it is not explicitly stated what religious denomination the Gilead society belongs to. Is Atwood trying to show the reader the dangers of believing too strongly in one thing?

[merelyjoshing]

Are there any other allusions to the Puritans in the Handmaid's Tale? In an interview Margaret Atwood stated that she based he novel on religion and we can see the reference to the elected (the Commanders). Does the witch hunting idea apply to the Gilead society? Offred also mentions "Puritan aids" (64) which is the soap that she uses to clean herself with.

[merelyjoshing]

Before Offred and the new Ofglen depart, we hear them say the phrase "Under His Eye" to each other (285). Who do you think this "His" is referring to? We have seen many references to the Bible in this novel, so could the society be based on one denomination of Christianity or some other high figure(s) in their society?

I think it is important that it is kept a mystery to both the characters in the novel and the reader. The idea of some unknown person or thing watching promotes fear that keeps the citizens in line. This idea related to how the government uses religion to control people. Furthermore, relates to the advance in technology and how it can be used to watch people. I think Atwood leaves this idea open to the reader's interpretation so they can evaluate the controlling factors in their own society and apply it to their time period.

[merelyjoshing]

If the Gilead society is supposed to be focused on religion, why do they condemn and execute priests and nuns, usually thought of as the most pious people? Is Atwood just using this to show the absurdity and hypocrisy of the society?

[Geekzilla93]

In the Handmaid's Tale, to what extent does Atwood use religious references so that the readers could understand the novel?

There is irony in the amount of religious references Atwood makes in the novel. Albeit she has many references to Christianity by the Bible, there are no actual references to Christ himself. The church is abandoned and is only a museum, and right across from the church is the Wall. The wall is where many innocent people have been killed and were now being displayed for the sick reason of simply making an example of what not to do. It's quite ironic because that was the purpose of Christ's crucifixion, to show people where the real power lay and to make an example of him. For a very religious society, there is very little mention of religion. I believe the reason she may have done this is to show that what is controlling this society really isn't...religion per say, but just a very corrupt group of peoples who understood that the way to many people's inner thoughts and fears was to mention god.

[Geekzilla93]

Reading the Handmaind’s Tale, I think we have all noticed that the handmaid’s names are rather similar to each other. Each having the prefix of ‘of’ and then a masculine names afterwards, (Fred, Glen…). The reason for this is to make the women look like commodities, they don’t even get to retain their original name. On page 99 (Google Books version) Offred is talking about how she is forbidden to say her original name. Besides just taking away the woman’s identity, is there possibly another reason that Atwood chose the suffixes that she did?

[fruit loops!]

If the Gilead society is supposed to be focused on religion, why do they condemn and execute priests and nuns, usually thought of as the most pious people? Is Atwood just using this to show the absurdity and hypocrisy of the society?

I think the Gilead society condemns and executes priests and nuns because these priests and nuns have excessive knowledge regarding the religion the Gilead regime is trying to manipulate and use to its advantage. If the priest and nuns were still around during the Gilead regime, it would not be possible to manipulate them and change the context of the Bible because the nuns and priests would know that it is not correct. At one point in the book it says "Blessed are the silent. I knew they made that up, I knew it was wrong, and they left things out, too, but there was no way of checking" (89). Offred knows that this part of the Beatitudes was incorrect, but she does not have the knowledge to really be sure. however, if it were a nun in her place, or if Offred had access to a priest or a nun, she could confirm this, and other women could know for certain that they are being preached lies and are being manipulated. all of this relates back to the theme of manipulation of religion.

[fruit loops!]

Before Offred and the new Ofglen depart, we hear them say the phrase "Under His Eye" to each other (285). Who do you think this "His" is referring to? We have seen many references to the Bible in this novel, so could the society be based on one denomination of Christianity or some other high figure(s) in their society?

To me it seems as if the regime requires them to use this greeting so that to the outsiders it seems as if they are saying under God's eye, but when the handmaid's say it to each other, it is almost a warning, reminding each other to watch what they say because they are always being watched by someone. At one point in the novel Offred mentions that everyone is supervising the other, and every person is required to report anything suspicious and inappropriate they hear or see. So when the handmaids greet each other by saying "Under His Eye" (285), they are either warning or looking out for the other by telling them to watch what they say and do. I also think that because no specific denomination of Christianity is given in the novel, it would be hard to really pinpoint who Atwood was referring to by the use of "His".

[fruit loops!]

"Dear God, I think, I will do anything you like. Now that you've let me off, I'll obliterate myself, if that's what you really want; I'll empty myself, truly, become a chalice. I'll give up Nick, I'll forget about the others. I'll stop complaining. I'll accept my lot. I'll sacrifice. I'll repent. I'll abdicate. I'll renounce. I know this can't be right but I think it anyway. Everything they taught at the Red Center, everything I've resisted, comes flooding in" (286). In this quote we see that at the end of the novel when Offred suspects that she is going to be taken away, she turns to God and tries to bargain her way out. Do you think there was a reason that Atwood chose for Offred to suddenly turn to religion before she is taken away, and do you think that Offred really believed that she could bargain her way out?

[fruit loops!]

In the epigraph of the novel it says "And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her" Genesis 30:1-3
If in the bible it states that Jacob and Rachel used a maid to birth their child, does this imply that Atwood is criticizing religion as well as society, or is Atwood implying that a dystopian society begins when people take a small part of religion and base their whole society around it without taking into consideration all of the other parts of the religion?

[zombie8mybrain]

Why Atwood chooses to name the stores after biblical events and other such allusions is to make the setting of the book a new city upon a hill as the Puritans declared they would. I believe that with the all seeing government that Atwood creates is similar to the city upon a hill the puritans wished to achieve. "that we shall be as a city upon a hill—the eyes of all people are upon us". This is from Winthrop's sermon on creating the new Jerusalem in Massachusetts. This quote can be interpreted that all other governments will model theres after this newly created one, but it can also be interpreted that all of the people of the city upon the hill will be in the eyes of the government as well. Atwood could be alluding to the terrible end of the Republic of Gilead as well as happened to the Puritans who also took biblical context and used it for their benefit in controlling a newly assembled mass of people.

[asdf99]

With all of it's controlling ways, can the republic of Gilead be considered a "stable" society? What factors in the society's structure show it to be stable?*

[zombie8mybrain]

In the Republic of Gilead, we see store names with Biblical references, such as Milk and Honey (referring to the Holy Lands of Israel) and Loaves and Fish (referring to the miracle of feeding the 5000). What is Atwood hinting at in naming these places after Biblical allusions?

Why Atwood chooses to name the stores after biblical events and other such allusions is to make the setting of the book a new city upon a hill as the Puritans declared they would. I believe that with the all seeing government that Atwood creates is similar to the city upon a hill the puritans wished to achieve. "that we shall be as a city upon a hill—the eyes of all people are upon us". This is from Winthrop's sermon on creating the new Jerusalem in Massachusetts. This quote can be interpreted that all other governments will model theres after this newly created one, but it can also be interpreted that all of the people of the city upon the hill will be in the eyes of the government as well. Atwood could be alluding to the terrible end of the Republic of Gilead as well as happened to the Puritans who also took biblical context and used it for their benefit in controlling a newly assembled mass of people.

[zombie8mybrain]

In The Handmaid's Tale, all handmaids are required to wear a cap with a pair of white "wings" (Atwood 8). The all-seeing Eye also has a pair of white wings (21-22). Why does Atwood give both the powerless handmaid and the extremely powerful eye the same symbolic feature?

The reason Atwood gives both the soldiers who are powerful and the handmaids who are not powerful at all the same symbol is to represent protection. The Soldiers, referred to as "Angels" are there to protect the well being of the people of Gilead from any infiltrators with ill will. The wings of the handmaids' outfits is also to demonstrate their purpose to keep away unwanted eyes of men as Offred explains on P.21 as she thinks about what her provocative swaying must do to the guardians. The wings are symbolizing protection Gilead tries to promise. Though, it is also ironic that wings also symbolize freedom and what Gilead has to offer its people (mainly the women) is the opposite of freedom.

[zombie8mybrain]

"And so I step up, into the darkness within: or else the light." (295)

"Did our narrator reach the outside world safely and build a new life for herself? Or was she discovered in her attic hiding place, arrested, sent to the Colonies or Jezebel's, or even executed?" (311)

Why is it important that Offred's fate remains anonymous? Is it merely just a plot device to ponder her plight after the covers have been closed? Or is it to demonstrate the human capacity to have faith in the unknown or something completely different? Why does Atwood do this?

[zombie8mybrain]

In the Historical Notes section at the end of Handmaid's Tale, the historical research characters review the tape's created by Offred and scour them for any historical tidbits left by her to create a better understanding of Gilead and its inner workings. They treat her memoirs just as an unfortunate event in history that has come and passed. Why does Atwood create this end section? It seems to lessen Offred's plight in the grande scheme of things and alludes to the possibility that history is liable to repeat itself again. Is Atwood doing this as a warning to us, that societies like Gilead and others are doomed to fail eventually?

[Geekzilla93]

Are there any other allusions to the Puritans in the Handmaid's Tale? In an interview Margaret Atwood stated that she based he novel on religion and we can see the reference to the elected (the Commanders). Does the witch hunting idea apply to the Gilead society? Offred also mentions "Puritan aids" (64) which is the soap that she uses to clean herself with.


I believe the other Puritan references made were more subtle than the soap itself. The other references were made in the way of the fact that this society presents itself as perfect society with no vice. Such as on page 118, the Aunt is showing them pornography and videos where women are treated violently, only to compare them to the Gilead society and to proclaim that their land is perfect, that their world is the little 'city on the hill' as the Puritans struggled to achieve.

[Geekzilla93]

There is the point in the novel where the first Ofglen committed suicide because the van was coming for her. Gilead has also removed anything that may be a used a suicidal device for the women. Even more ironic is the fact that their freedom is further obstructed by 'wings' and 'angels'. If Gilead is well aware that the women wish to escape so badly, why does the government continue to make women suffer? What is their perspective on the light at the end of the tunnel? And furthermore, how do you think they explain the suicides to the other women?

[Watermelon]

I think the Gilead society condemn the priests and nuns to achieve total control of the people's believes. For them to achieve total control in the way that happened in the book, there must be no oppostion to the established religion and no other forms of religion. This can also serve as an example into scaring people to obey the orders because if they don't, they might end up dead and hang on the Wall like teh priests and nuns.

[Watermelon]

"Dear God, I think, I will do anything you like. Now that you've let me off, I'll obliterate myself, if that's what you really want; I'll empty myself, truly, become a chalice. I'll give up Nick, I'll forget about the others. I'll stop complaining. I'll accept my lot. I'll sacrifice. I'll repent. I'll abdicate. I'll renounce. I know this can't be right but I think it anyway. Everything they taught at the Red Center, everything I've resisted, comes flooding in" (286). In this quote we see that at the end of the novel when Offred suspects that she is going to be taken away, she turns to God and tries to bargain her way out. Do you think there was a reason that Atwood chose for Offred to suddenly turn to religion before she is taken away, and do you think that Offred really believed that she could bargain her way out?

I think Atwood had a specific reason for chose for Offred to suddenly turn to religion. Throughout the book, Offred has very little belief in religion and while praying, she prays a phrase that she does not know the meaning of. But living in this society, no matter how strong willed, will be brainwashed to some extend, these beliefs, because she hears them everyday, cannot help but to rub off on her. So I think Atwood used thsi to show that although Offred has hope and somewhat of a clear mind, she still cannot resist the power that society has to influence her.

[Watermelon]

Throughout the Handmaid's Tale we see Offred obessed with her memories of Luke, missing him. When Nick came into the picture, she seem to justify by saying that Luke won't mind. Do you think the religions preachings in this society influenced her thinking? (the passage from Genesis)

[Watermelon]

As we see in this society in the Handmaid's Tale that the Commanders have a lot of freedom and power, things for them seem tobe better in this society. If life for them were already so great, why did Atwood specificly made the Commanders "rebel" and break the rules?

[Generic_Idea]

What makes a narrator reliable?
Is Offred a reliable narrator? Why / why not? What textual evidence supports your conclusion?
What are other time-related factors at work in the novel?

A narrator is only as good as what they see and hear and how well they can recall events unbiased. For example the narrator from The Great Gatsby stated in the beginning of the novel that he would be unbiased, but then throughout the novel the reader has to question if he really is telling the story in a purely factual way.

Offred's reliability as a narrator depends on the aspects she is judged. From a storyline standpoint, she is not very reliable. As the historians mention at the end of the book, she doesn't speak much about the government, or national events. She speaks about her life and her day to day troubles. However looking at this from a message standpoint, Offred is reliable because she shows all the turmoil in her life. In this case her bias is a good thing because how she is feeling is important to how the story is told.

:shocked: (I don't think I understand this last question...) Offred always has al this time off but there is nothing she can do. Either the marthas do any chores she could have, or she isn't allowed to do an activity. In this society, just going for a walk without a reason is dangerous because it attracts government attention. Another important time is th night. Most of the things Offred does that she isn't supposed to do is done at night. This may be because of it's darkness and shadow.

[Watermelon]

A reliable narrator is suppose to tell the reader the setting, the plot, and the unique story from a personal, yet not too bias view. The narrator is suppose to provide the reader with accurate and information that is key in understanding and connecting with the story.

I think Offred is a reliable narrator. She provides the reader with the drastic change in society and how things are before and how things are now in the society. "Luke and I used to walk together, somemes, along these streets. We used to talk about buying a house like one of these, an old big house, fixing it up. We would have children. Although we knew it wasn't too likely we could ever afford it, it was something to talk about, a game for Sundays. Such freedom now seems almost weightless" (24). In this short passage, she gives the reader a glimpse life in the past and life now, although it's somewhat personal, it still contains the valuable information needed in order to understand the book as a whole.

What stood out to me was the lack of time in this novel. Offred would take specific nights or a chunk of time when things are happening and tell it like a story, but it is not by any means continuous. She briefly mentions different season like it's no big deal. This adds to the feel of despair Offred is facing, living through everyday, the same, boring routine.

[Watermelon]

One of the key symbols ia the Bible. In a dystopian society the goal is to create a utopia, but things always go wrong and sa dystopian society is the result of the failure to create the utopia. The bible perfectly demonstrates this. Poeple are suppose to be happy and living together peacefully under the word of God, but instead, the Bible is used to justify something that is entirely not moral. "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (88).

Another key symbol is the word "FAITH". "FAITH is a faded blue, the leaves of the lielies a dingy green. I can spend minutes, tens of munites, running my eyes over the pring: FAITH" (57). In a dyspotian novel, the main character usually goes through a self-fullfilling journey where at the end, she came to the realization of what is right or finds out who she really is. hile she is going through that journey, there needs to be some form of hope that someday, everything will turn out ok. The word "FAITH" is Offred's hope throughout her journey, and it constantly reminds her that she needs to believe in a better way of living and a brighter future.

[gujuprinz]

In the "Handmaid's Tale", the symbolism of the Handmaid's red costumes is clearly portrayed. Atwood uses these red costumes to show how plain the women are, and that they are full of "sin". According to a webpage of symbolism (http://www.three-musketeers.net/mike/colors.html), the color red symbolizes energy, speed, strength, and love. Because red symbolizes energy, it shows how the Handmaid's endure all of the sexual abuse they receive from the men. The color red also symbolizes strength, which expresses that the Handmaid's had the strength to live life even though they were separated from their husbands and children. And at last, the color red also represents love, which shows that even though the Handmaid's were used as "sex machines", they still tried to fell the extra sense of love because in the Gildean Period, the Handmaid's were lacking love. In easier words, the only reason why people cared about Handmaids was because they could be used as sex machines for pleasure, and also to give birth to children. In conclusion, Atwood uses color symbolism to portray how the Handmaids had to live and adapt through the Gildean Period.

[bleep196]

Throughout the Handmaids Tale, religion plays a major theme in the actions of the characters both seen and not seen. Why or how do the religious aspects lead to the spiral of dystopian decline in the Novel?

[bleep196]

In the "Handmaid's Tale", the symbolism of the Handmaid's red costumes is clearly portrayed. Atwood uses these red costumes to show how plain the women are, and that they are full of "sin". According to a webpage of symbolism (http://www.three-musketeers.net/mike/colors.html), the color red symbolizes energy, speed, strength, and love. Because red symbolizes energy, it shows how the Handmaid's endure all of the sexual abuse they receive from the men. The color red also symbolizes strength, which expresses that the Handmaid's had the strength to live life even though they were separated from their husbands and children. And at last, the color red also represents love, which shows that even though the Handmaid's were used as "sex machines", they still tried to fell the extra sense of love because in the Gildean Period, the Handmaid's were lacking love. In easier words, the only reason why people cared about Handmaids was because they could be used as sex machines for pleasure, and also to give birth to children. In conclusion, Atwood uses color symbolism to portray how the Handmaids had to live and adapt through the Gildean Period.

I wouldn't really call the Handmaids "Sex Machines" as the whole idea of the Handmaid was for them to be the vessels of reproduction to fix the declining birthrate in the Novel. In altering soceity so that women like offred would be forced to become these hapless carriers of in most cases what would have been unwanted children, but in the newly warped society is seen as a pleasure or a reward, Atwood almost seems to create an entirley new religion of preserving humanity, rather than concentrating on heaven and hell and how to avoid being sent to the latter and getting into the former or explaining the universe as a whole as most religions do.

[bleep196]

I think Atwood had a specific reason for chose for Offred to suddenly turn to religion. Throughout the book, Offred has very little belief in religion and while praying, she prays a phrase that she does not know the meaning of. But living in this society, no matter how strong willed, will be brainwashed to some extend, these beliefs, because she hears them everyday, cannot help but to rub off on her. So I think Atwood used thsi to show that although Offred has hope and somewhat of a clear mind, she still cannot resist the power that society has to influence her.

I agree with this, but i also think that because Offred has been deprived of everything else she had in the time before the Giladeans took over, i think religion is just about the last thing she does have, and without it she would be unable to resist the new conformity that was not only being forced on her, but on all the other handmaids as well.

[taztara158]

Orwell presents several thought-provoking statements in 1984 that question even our society. This is an aspect of dystopian literature that creates fear in the reader so the society in the novel does not become real.

One thing the narrator says is "Your worst enemy...was your own nervous system" (64). In dystopian societies this is very true. The governments only create a punishment for different crimes. The true fear comes from within. People are so scared to make a change. Without any change, society will stay the same. People are also scared of what they are losing. Winston has little knowledge of the past and asks the old prole which society is better. It could be that Winston is scared of finding out there is not a possibility of a better life. However fear is just a feeling in the nervous system. There is often no real reason behind it, but once the nervous system is turned on there is no going back. In the end, the fear can make you risk everything or nothing. By risking everything dystopian characters could be killed, but by risking nothing they will never know a better world. Orwell uses this line to reflect on all dystopian societies and scare the reader into letting their world become one.


On a different note, there is also some possible foreshadowing. The narrator says, "...Winston, with a violent lunge, succeeded in touching his toes with knees unbent, for the first time in seven years" (37). This simple physical ability may be leading to Winston's intellectual growth that could drive him to take a stand against the government.

[cookies55]

Orwell presents several thought-provoking statements in 1984 that question even our society. This is an aspect of dystopian literature that creates fear in the reader so the society in the novel does not become real.

One thing the narrator says is "Your worst enemy...was your own nervous system" (64). In dystopian societies this is very true. The governments only create a punishment for different crimes. The true fear comes from within. People are so scared to make a change. Without any change, society will stay the same. People are also scared of what they are losing. Winston has little knowledge of the past and asks the old prole which society is better. It could be that Winston is scared of finding out there is not a possibility of a better life. However fear is just a feeling in the nervous system. There is often no real reason behind it, but once the nervous system is turned on there is no going back. In the end, the fear can make you risk everything or nothing. By risking everything dystopian characters could be killed, but by risking nothing they will never know a better world. Orwell uses this line to reflect on all dystopian societies and scare the reader into letting their world become one.


On a different note, there is also some possible foreshadowing. The narrator says, "...Winston, with a violent lunge, succeeded in touching his toes with knees unbent, for the first time in seven years" (37). This simple physical ability may be leading to Winston's intellectual growth that could drive him to take a stand against the government.


The first quote and argument presented can be related to the government instated language, Newspeak. In the passage that is pointed out, Winston is reflecting on how even the smallest bit of tension you feel can be transferred into a physical action, and how that action can give you away as unorthodox. Winston goes on to say that "The most deadly danger of all was talking in your sleep. There was no way of guarding against that, so far as he could see" (Orwell 64). In the section labeled "Principles of Newspeak", the reader is informed that the reason for the creation of Newspeak was mainly to condense the vocabulary of Standard English in a way that would make it impossible for people in the society to commit thoughtcrime, as there are no words to express your feelings. Winston's reflection earlier in the novel shows how Newspeak is prevalent in a person's daily routine. When Winston talks about being discovered as a rebel during the day, he does so in relation to bodily actions and functions, indicating that the people in this society make a conscious effort to incorporate Newspeak into their lives. Winston's remark about talking in your sleep indicates exactly the opposite. The institution of Newspeak in this society is not as ingrained subconsciously in a person's life as something like the Two Minutes Hate is. People still resort to subconsciously using Oldspeak to articulate their rebellious ideas.

[cookies55]

The narrator says that the closest translation of part of the Declaration of Independence in Newspeak would be the one work "crimethink" (Orwell 312). This example illustrates an aspect of Newspeak and the society. By creating a language that will only offer one translation of an influential document, the government has accomplished exactly what it wants to. At the same time as making the language open-ended, they have succeeded in making it the narrowest language ever created. Although there are many ways to interpret the word "crimethink" as we see it, to speakers of Newspeak the word has only one connotation and that is a bad one. By erasing all words that represent certain abstract and ideological thoughts, the government has basically made sure that there is only one reality for every person in the society. Relating this idea to my own definitions of reality and truth, (truth being a commonly accepted idea and reality being a perception of life) the government has essentially equated the two ideas through Newspeak. By making reality the same for every person the government has turned reality into truth and vice versa. They have erased perceptions and succeeded in creating the ultimate form of conformity, controlling every person's reality.

[merelyjoshing]

these are a few of the symbols I found in 1984:

The glass paperweight with the coral embedded in it symbolizes the peace and beautiful society that Winston is trying to reach. The coral represents the old culture and can be extended to freedom of thought. It also contradicts the 1984 society in that it has no apparent use: "The thing was double attractive because of its apparent uselessness" (96). The paperweight represents Winston and Julia's rebellion and when the paperweight is broken by a Thought Police, their rebellion was foiled. When he first discovers it, the paperweight could also show Winston's individuality - how he is different in his thinking and separated from the other party members like Parsons.
The picture of St. Clement's Church is another symbol that represents the past, but ultimately leads to Winston's downfall. Winston's desire to learn the rest of the rhyme associated with it shows again his rebellion and search for the past. Similar to the paperweight, when Winston and Julia are discovered, the picture falls away to reveal a telescreen. The picture was also used to foreshadow the downfall of Winston in that Julia says "I bet that picture's got bugs behind it" (147). The picture that is actually concealing a telescreen is also used in the comparison to the government as God or religion.

Orwell uses a lot of white in the end of the novel along with the idea of the place where there is no darkness. These symbols are used ironically to show the corruption of the government. White, known for purity, is used by the party in its prisons and government buildings which are the opposite of pure. The meaning of light is also flipped when Winston realized the place where there is no darkness is actually the prison rather than a perfect future.

Winston's varicose ulcer is used to show or foreshadow trouble or the state of his life. When he first writes in his diary he notes that the ulcer began to itch. However, when he begins his relationship with Julia, Winston finds that the freedom and experience of happiness has made the ulcer go away. When Winston is captured by the thought police and tortured, he finds that once again his ulcer is inflamed. Winston's stomach is also used similarly in that when he is waiting in prison his stomach begins to ache and his thoughts follow the feeling of his stomach.

[merelyjoshing]

The red armed prole woman outside of Mr. Charrington's shop is used as a symbol of all of the proles and how they are the only hope for the future. Winston notes how she sings while he has never heard a party member sing. She is also a symbol of fertility and beauty compared to Julia.

Technology is another major symbol in the novel (and most dystopian literature). Through the telescreens, speakwrites, and helicopters we see how the government uses technological advancement to control the people. In Goldstein's book, the purpose of technology in the society is explained - how advancement is solely focused on control of the people and new methods of destruction (even though they never produce anything new because they do not need it).

[heath24]

Freedom and Love in Parts One and Two of 1984
Big Brother- I think Big Brother would define freedom as crimethink. This society clearly does not believe that freedom is necessary or even helpful with the slogan “Freedom is Slavery.” The people who idolize the meaning of freedom, such as Winston, are only a danger to the party. The use of the thought police help to eliminate this and achieve the goal of the party. I believe Big Brother would define love more similar to how we think of pride. This does not refer to pride in oneself, but pride for the party. All the people who have been brainwashed by false information and propaganda, such as Parsons and the children, believe the party is wonderful and essentially the closest thing to real love. The people are only allowed to feel hate for anything except for Big Brother.

Winston-I believe that Winston would define freedom as the way everything was in the world before the party existed as the main government. Freedom to Winston would be a world in which he could go to the antique shop, share his opinion, write, or be with Julia, all without fear. The notion that true freedom could exist is the driving force behind his risky actions, such as buying the diary and being with Julia. One thing that invovles freedom is love. I believe Winston would define love as something powerful that existed before the takeover of the party. I think Winston probobly most identifies love with the feelings he remembers for his mother. The way he describes her, but can't quite put his finger on the emotion or memory shows the extent of power in the party.

Julia- Julia seems to have a very different perspective than the other party members, especially of the women. Freedom to her would be the ability to do what she wants, when she wants to with more ease and acceptance in society. For example, being with Winston makes her feel like she is defying the party, but she wishes she had the freedom to be with each other in public. However, with the party in power, they can only get a few stolen moments in large crowds. I believe she would define love very similarly to freedom. Love to Julia is the defiance of the party in obtaining what she wants. Julia is the youngest of these characters and therefore has even less of a connection with true love, as she has been around the party her whole life.

[asdf99]

The party in 1984 dissolves all love, sex, and family connections between people to establish complete power and control over its citizens. The party has "cut the links between child and parent, and between man and man, and between man and woman. No one dares trust a wife or a child” (267). By using these tactics it trains its subjects to complete devotion and love for Big Brother and the Party.

The Junior Anti-Sex league is an example of the party using this tactic for controlling its citizens. Even children are no longer trusted by their parents because they have the power to report them to the thought police. By this method the party manages to wedge itself between one of the strongest bonds that humans have, the love between parents and children. The children become loyal to the party instead of their parents, and parents fear their own children as a result. Betrayal of love in the family is a common idea in the novel. This is seen with Parson being betrayed by his own children, and with the imprisoned man in the ministry of love yelling that he is willing to watch his wife and children’s throats be slit instead of being taken to Room 101.

Winston’s has dreams about his mother and his childhood "in a time when there were still privacy, love, and friendship, and when the members of a family stood by one another without needing to know the reason"(28). In this novel Love is opposite everything that the party stands for, making the theme very ironic. For example, the Party uses Love as an excuse to control its subjects, as seen in the “Ministry of Love” which tortures its subjects into obeying the party. Winston rebels against the party using love. He battles everything the party stands for by allowing himself to love and stand for another human being, Julia. As long as Winston loves Julia, and what she represents, he is able to believe that another world can exist and is able to hold a hate for Big Brother and the Party.