odysseus vs aeneas

[underground]

hello again,

i need a little help with my coming paper. i've decided to make a comparison between odysseus vs aeneas, somewhat belittling the latter. i feel that aeneas hasn't done as much and hasn't suffered as much as odysseus and therefore doesn't deserve that much credit. for example, aeneas doesn't get lost in the sea, doesn't accidentally land on islands of cyclops or lotus-eaters and whatnot, and when aeneas reaches carthage, he stays there on his own will, as opposed to odysseus, who is "captured" by calypso. in addition, aeneas seems to be a passive character. he is pious, but piety doesn't seem to be a very wanted quality of a leader.

anyway, i am somewhat stuck around these ideas and a little more, and i was hoping for some suggestions to get my brain going again. also if you could argue that aeneas is as heroic as odysseus, it would also be great.

thanks. :)

[Sitaram]

I get the impression that the Epics of Homer developed for some centuries as an oral tradition and were perhaps only redacted into their final form by someone we call Homer, whereas I get the impression that Virgil was personally composing his work from scratch, though drawing upon myth and tradition, and had in mind certain political agendas regarding Roman hegemony. I have nothing to base these hunches on, unless I were to do some google search and get lucky. I think imagine that oral traditions that evolve over centuries, and are recited around campfires perhaps, must have a lot more action packed "chase scenes", and there is a lot more Jungian archetypal activity taking place, whereas a cultured educated individual who is composing his own opus for an audience he knows may not have in mind a goal of such diversity and drama. I have not really looked closely at Virgil or Homer in almost 40 years. I may be quite mistaken in my views. But I offer you these half-baked impressions in case they give someone else some ideas. Of course, the answers are probably to be found at sparknotes.com.

As I think about it, works like Homer, or the Ramayan, evolving over centuries of oral tradition, are like rain forests. If you destroy a rain forest, you can never get it back I am told. There are only so many such oral traditions. You could not decide tomorrow to evolve a new one. The tribes of the earth were ravished of their innocence millenia ago. If a pine forest burns down, Smokey the Bear and his crew can plant another one. Hemingways and Faulkners and Pynchons and Martels are always coming down the pike. (Shades of Oz: "Lions and Tigers and Bears, Oh my!" "Falkners and Pynchons, Martels, go buy!") ... might as well help out Amazon with a plug... what serendipity! The Amazon IS a rain forest. I must be on the right track, er, path.

I talk about the Aenead a bit in this paper:

http://toosmallforsupernova.org/method.htm

Perhaps you will find something there to give you an idea.

[PeterL]

The Odessey is an epic of individual development, while Virgil wrote the Aenid to create a national myth of Rome. Odysseus' troubles are allegorical, and the Greek gods are also allegories of aspects of human behavior. Aeneas was a perfected man who was perfectly suited to be a great leader.

If you want to contrast characters, you could contrast Penelope with another female character, perhaps the woman who was running Carthage.

[RococoLocket]

Haha, i've just spent 3 years as a Classics student & done an exam on this very subject a mere month ago! I may try to help you when my brain recovers from the trauma of exam-time :goof:

[mono]

The Odessey is an epic of individual development, while Virgil wrote the Aenid to create a national myth of Rome. Odysseus' troubles are allegorical, and the Greek gods are also allegories of aspects of human behavior. Aeneas was a perfected man who was perfectly suited to be a great leader.

If you want to contrast characters, you could contrast Penelope with another female character, perhaps the woman who was running Carthage.
Indeed, I absolutely loved The Æneid, yet I have heard that Roman officials at the time nearly persuaded him to write the Roman epic, though, in my opinion, Ovid's Metamorphoses seems a far more metaphorical piece (also written in part of modern-day Italy). That Virgil wrote his epic, continuing off of Homer's The Iliad and certain works of Euripides, I think, further projects his intentions (or Roman officials' intentions) to create an epic poem that would survive time as well as Homer (and, if I may admit, Wolfgang Petersen did a wonderful job in directing Troy, the film, which he adapted from both The Iliad and The Æneid).
Comparing The Odyssey with The Æneid sounds very interesting - both Odysseus and Aeneas intended to make a long trip, exploring vast lands, but for different reasons - Odysseus to explore, and, in turn, conquering lands, and Aeneas to avoid Troy, his land just controlled by King Agamemnon. As PeterL mentioned, very truthfully, The Odyssey and Odysseus seemed much more involved with Divine Beings, for better or worse (getting captured by Calypso, yet helped later by Athena) than Aeneas and The Æneid.
Good luck!

[PeterL]

I think that Underground has half of his paper now.

[nessgavin]

I really have a question. Does anyone else think of the story of Calypso and Odysseus as an allegory? That Odysseus was held prisoner of his own desires? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[JCamilo]

The differences are not about what they suffered, but it is the difference between Greeks and Romans.
The suffering of Odisseus is the suffering of a traveler, the gods are punishing him but he is a individual fighting against it.
Aeneas is the suffering of a nation, he is what is left of Troy, he have to place the nation before his feelings (Dido dies because she goes in the way of the nation. Aeneas would have stay, but to create the Roman empire he had to leave). Aeneas had a duty, the gods are giving an obligation, not a punishment like with Odisseus.
Aeneas also reflects the virtues of a citzen while Odisseus reflects the virtues of a lone wolf. Moral wise Odisseus is not bound to anything but his own will to return home. Aeneas is, reflecting the roman citzen, the member of a Nation and not a "Just" a culture.
It is impossible to argue who suffered the most. If anything Aeneas is a homeless, he is not lost in the sea because to be lost you need to have a home to return. Odisseus destroyed Aeneas house. I suggest you to compare them from the point of view of a epic character that represented a culture and other than represented a nation.

[JCamilo]

I really have a question. Does anyone else think of the story of Calypso and Odysseus as an allegory? That Odysseus was held prisoner of his own desires? Any input would be greatly appreciated.


I do not think Homer was doing allegories exactly, but if he does it with Calypso all rest is allegory too. Of course, Homer didn't believe in the literal meaning of his work and so all greeks, therefore poetic interpretations are all welcome.

[ohz66]

HI, this is really great subject about Aeneid and Odyssey, but Could anyone help me to fined acoparing between both of the stories.

I'll be thanks to all of you.

[JBI]

Actually, historic readings have also read the Aeneid as the tragedy of Dido, rather than the birth of a nation, and subsequent criticism has also defined it as containing a subtle commentary on the flaw of the nation at the end, but that is not really relevant.

Look up the definitions of Arete as applied to Homer's Audience, then look into Roman idealism. Even something such as Roman verses Greek sculpture can show you the staggering differences of the cultures.