Coops Reaction Too-- Two

[tallcoopscoach]

Since approximately 8 people responded to the first prompt, I'll assume that most are procrastinating and they will pay for that. Anyways, the second thought has to do with bouncing ideas off of one another... Obviously fate is what we see here as well as irony but I want you to go beyond fate and see what else is a main theme that runs throughout these plays. Also, what type of irony does this play contain? :bday_2:

[jbarrett]

A powerful theme in these plays is the idea of the strengh of the unknown and Gods and how much power they hold over all of the mortals. There are a few instances of irony in these plays. One example is of how Oedipus insults the old man, Tiresias, for being blind and he himself becomes blind. When Oedipus finds out the truth about his life and birth, he realizes there is a form of truth in blindness since the old man was blind. This is dramatic irony. Oedipus calls the man a blind fool and in reality he is the only one who knows the truth regardless of his blindness.

[jbarrett]

I am just posting again to let you know that obviously I am now a registered user, hence why I posted the reply above, so I will not be writing you anymore pestering emails Mr. Annen, and also that I am going to be gone on a mission trip July 22 - 31. I am sure there will be posts before that but I am just letting you know now just in case I forget to tell you. Thanks!

[thebodystjohn]

THIS IS TAYLOR ST. JOHN! I think the other major theme that runs through the trilogy is the idea of a black vs. white mindset. The characters all see things as being one extreme or the other with no space inbetween for any sort of compromise. People, choices, and beliefs are either good or bad. When in truth, a human being, as well as the choices they make, are combinations of good and bad. Antigone and Creon battle between two extremes with zero compromise, the end result is tragedy. Both of these characters are too bull-headed to at least realize the value of the other's argument. Oedipus also experiences this same conflict within himself. When he realizes what he has done and his troubling history, he is at constant unrest in trying to decide whether he is a good or bad person. While the reader sees Oedipus, as a human, have qualities from both sides.
The other theme in the trilogy is the power of hidden secrets. When Oedipus's incestuous and violent family history surfaces, the repercussions are felt through the rest of his own life, the lives of his daughters, and the people of Thebes.
The plays are ironic because everything that occurs is premeditated by the characters in some way and ignored by another. Oedipus ignores the prophecies that say he killed his father and married his mother; Creon ignores Antigone's threats of death; and in both cases their ignorance leads to far worse consequences than if they would have accepted their fates earlier. This is ironic because, by trying to avoid their destinies the characters recieve more wrath and less resolve.

TAYLOR ST. JOHN

[Reynoldswrap]

Another theme other than the inevitability of fate present in the Oedipus cycle is the power of the Gods over mortals on earth. The Oedipus cycle is a humbling journey which attempts to knock humans off the " High Horse" which we normally associate ourselves with. The story contains situational irony meaning actions that the characters take seem to have adverse and unpredictable outcomes. Like Jamie mentioned when Oedipus insults the blind man he himself becomes blind. Irony? I think so! By the way whats up Jamie hows your summer?

[jbarrett]

Hey Ross! Not too bad and yourself? I can't wait for A.P. next year. I'm sure it will be a blast. Well, have a great summer and stay out of trouble! :)

[KWikstrom]

I can't say that I agree with Jamie and Ross on their opinion that the power of the Gods is a major theme of the plays. True, many blame their fates on the Gods. However, I think that Sophocles was trying to show that, in the end, individuals have control over their own destinies. The Gods do not make choices for them - their fates are decided by their own actions. It drives me crazy when people blame everything bad in their lives on God or Satan. "The devil made me do it" is not an excuse. Each person has control over themselves. Perhaps the dieties know each of our personalities and can foretell our futures; however, it is up to us in the end. I find the Puritan theory of Predestination absolutely ridiculous. Oedipus is a good example of how people create their own destinies. His own rash anger spelled out his dire fate when he killed his father over a very minor incident. Antigone is also an example. Though the gods were an influence in her decision to bury her brother, they were by no means the deciding factor - she had a choice, and she chose to act the way she did. There is always a choice. The options may not be the ones we want, but nonetheless they are there. Each action has its own consequence - sometimes good, sometimes bad. Each individual is in control of his or her destiny. Certain personalities are more likely to suffer than others. One of my favorite quotes from Oedipus Rex is when Creon says to Oedipus "Ugly in yielding, as you were ugly in rage! Natures like yours chiefly torment themselves!" Creon realized that the suffering of Oedipus was brought upon him mainly by himself, not by the gods (though Oedipus seems convinced that they were the ones who caused all of his woes).
It is definitely ironic that in trying to escape the horrible prophesies, Oedipus left the place where he was safe and carried himself into the very place where they would be fulfilled. It is often debated as to whether people become a certain way or do a certain thing because someone else tells them that it is unavoidably who they are or what they are bound to do. Here is an interesting question: If Oedipus himself hadn't heard the prophesy in the first place, would any of that have happened? Or what if his parents had ignored the prophesy and decided to keep him there and not kill him? I believe that things would have gone very differently if they hadn't heard or heeded the prophesies. It is certainly ironic that in trying to avoid the fates spoken of in the prophesies, they actually fulfilled them.

[tallcoopscoach]

not too many have replied... too bad for them:(

[Koa]

If I only I understood what you are talking about....:confused: Which plays???

And a thread is not made to count the replies it has...

[kilted exile]

If I only I understood what you are talking about....:confused: Which plays???

And a thread is not made to count the replies it has...

I think this is some school course thingy, and they've decided to use the forums here to discuss the books.

[JWright]

I think that of course fate is inevitable but in the plays, the Gods are the ones who control the destinies, which is why fate has it's inevitable quality. In Oedipus Rex, Creon is sent to Apollo to bring news of which act must be completed in order to fulfill the oracle and lift the curse over Thebes. In addition, Oedipus comments, "May the Gods deny...the fruit of the earth. Also, in Oedipus at Colonus, references are made to Apollo, Zeus, Pallas, and Poseidon. The chorus notes, "That lord, Poseidon, must I praise again." The characters try to control their destinies but ultimately it is the Gods who are in control. As for irony, the biggest one is in Oedipus Rex when Oedipus says, "I'll find the hand that brought death to Labdakos' and Polydoros' child" (King Laios). He unknowingly would be searching for himself because he was in fact the murderer, he just didn't know it at the time. Also, he slept with his mother who, at the time, he thought was his wife. So this whole time, Oedipus thought he could control his destiny. But he fulfilled the oracle before he even knew one existed. Another ironic point is in Oedipus at Colonus when Creon comes to tell Oedipus to come home in saying "So, now, poor Oedipus, come home...Your countrymen are right in summoning you..." But Oedipus replys with, "That time when I was sick with my own life's evil: when I would gladly have left the earth- You had no mind to give me what I wanted!...It is the same thing now: You see this city and all it's people being kind to me, so you would draw me away..." How awful! When Oedipus wanted to die, Creon wouldn't let him. But now that Oedipus is happy and he finally found some place of acceptance, Creon is offering him to come home. That's mean! This whole book is irony scared in fear from the Gods. I like it!
~Julia Wright

[Koa]

I think this is some school course thingy, and they've decided to use the forums here to discuss the books.


aaaah...makes much more sense now!!! sort of...

[ilar18]

Jerry Ilar - - - Another theme in “The Oedipus Cycle” is the theme of arrogance and pride. Several times Oedipus is given many truths of the prophecy. Such as him killing his own father and marrying his own mother. When he hears this by Teiresias and the other messengers, he refuses to listen and continues to believe the oracle is wrong. His own pride leads to his downfall, for he is not able to accept that the prophecy was true. Another theme is the secret incestuous love between Oedipus and his own mother Iocaste. Iocaste had seemed to know the truth of knowing that Oedipus was her own son, and the father of her four other children. She had refused to give the knowledge of Oedipus’s parents, for she knew it was wrong to love her son. In the end she kills herself not able to live while Oedipus knew the real truth that she was his mother.
A type of irony that runs throughout the play is dramatic irony. The characters in the play seem to try to change their own destiny while in the end they are actually fulfilling them. For example, when Oedipus meets his own father, the king on the highway, he kills him. At the time readers knew the king of Thebes had gone out on a journey and was killed by a band of highway men. Which the readers find out was Oedipus himself.

[Sitaram]

We get the word "dinosaur" from a Greek word "deinos" which can mean terrible, but may also have many other meanings, such as wondrous, or aweful in the sense of something that fills us with awe.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=d&p=10



1841, coined by Sir Richard Owen, from Gk. deinos "terrible" + sauros "lizard," of unknown origin. Fig. sense of "person or institution not adapting to change" is from 1952.

There is a very famous chorus in Sophocles Antigone, the "Ode on Man" which begins: "Pola ta deina..." and translates as "Many are the wonders/marvels, but none so wondrous as man."



Now "deinos" sounds like it might be related to dynamis "power". Tis a consumation devoutly to be wished, but I doubt that there is any etymological connection.





1817, as a term in philosophy; 1827 in the sense "force producing motion," from Fr. dynamique (1762), from Ger. dynamisch, introduced by Leibnitz 1691 from Gk. dynamikos "powerful," from dynamis "power," from dynasthai "be able to have power," of unknown origin. The fig. sense of "active, potent, energetic" is from 1856. Dynamics as a branch of physics was in use from 1788.


My time is somewhat limited at the moment, but I would like to return to this post and add to it some thoughts about that line from that chorus: "Pola ta deina"

Here are some interesting things I collected regarding "Pola ta deina", 3 years ago:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sitaram/message/1046


http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2004/2004-07-65.html




The plays are not a trilogy, although, in a wonderful expression of the things at work in the three tragedies, they say that if "these three stories have a resolution, it is in Oedipus at Colonus, but what this play resolves is far grander than the story of this family. Oedipus himself has become an enormously powerful figure in this last play: his presence throughout the action, seated on the forbidden ground he has chosen, which the gods have chosen for him, concentrates in one man great themes of the sacred and the profane, of the acceptance and denial of mystery, and of the violence that destroys peace and the violence that sustains it" (vii). For M/W, in Sophocles human actions are by choice, not by the control of the gods: "Sophocles is closest to humanism in his way of writing plays, and this humanism leads him to construct discrete dramas that link human effects directly to human causes" (vii). They take care to establish that O is a tyrant in some senses, but they don't say what the implications for the play are, except that he is "therefore prone to some forms of hubris" (l). Hubris seems to be an aspect of OT, but not, as far as M/W are concerned, the point. On the Fate question, they say that it "should not detain us here, save to point out that Greek literature from Homer through tragedy seems comfortable with the idea of double causation. A hero's life is explained equally by his choices, his strength, or his wisdom, on the one hand, and by an intervention of the gods on the other" (li). M/W seem to settle on the idea that OT is a "Tragedy of Complexity" and make reference to the ideas of Nietzsche, Vernant, Reinhardt, and Segal. They quote each scholar briefly, but they add little of their own opinions. The introduction also tends to presume unanimity of the original audience's thinking. The Athenians, for instance, "would have been shocked by the sight of a son arguing with and making threats against his father" (xxxi). We should be careful about overstating the universality of perceived cultural norms.




http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/1998-August/000933.html



Most English translations of Matthew 7:28 translate the Greek word exeplhssonto by "and they were amazed". Properly, however, an English translation using the word "amazed" would require the Greek word thauvmadzo, which means "to be amazed, to be delighted". The Greek word that the writer of the Gospel uses, ekplhssw in its lexical form, means "to be overwhelmed, overcome with fright, horror".

The difficulty may lie with the ambiguity of shock as an emotional phenomenon in Greek which may indeed indicate horror just as well as amazement. What needs to be considered, however, is that what exceeds the natural or the ordinary tends to be deemed by the ancients as a mark of the supernatural, whether of the demonic or of the divine. In this connection, one might well consider the Attic idiomatic adjective phrase for a powerful speaker: he is said to be DEINOS LEGEIN, "awesome at speaking." DEINOS/-H/-ON actually means "fearsome," but more commonly than not it has the sense of "wonderful." This adjective is sufficiently ambiguous that the famous Sophoclean "Ode on Man" from the middle of the Antigone begins with the sentence: POLLA TA DEINA, K(AI) OUDEN ANQRWPOU DEINOTERON (ESTIN). One finds this sentence normally translated, "Many are the wondrous things, and nothing is more wondrous than Man"; however, in Martin Heidegger's fascinating essay on the poem there is a different spin: Heidegger makes it: "Many are the strange/terrifying things, and none is more strange/terrifying than Man."

[Sernick-looloo]

If fate rules someones life and predestination rules supreme than why even attempt to live? if you have no contrl over your own life than what makes Oedipus get up every morning when he knows that someone else has planned out his entire day? Katy hit it right on the head when she said that it is stupid to blame your faults on the gods. Note to Oedipus: If you don't kill anyone you don't risk killing your father! This story made me slightly annoyed because I don't want to hear that screwing your mom or killing your dad was some gods fault- it was yours, you did it. The irony of the story is that in Oedipus he blamed his actions on his predetermined future but yet he punished himself for his actions. Another note to Oedipus: pick someone to blame and go with it.

[ahehl663]

Hey everybody, sorry about being a little late with this one :(. I was on vacation. Anyways here are my thoughts on irony and themes in the Oedipus plays:

First off, I don't understand Taylor’s whole black and white mindset theme. I'm not sure what "extremes" you are talking about! Please elaborate if you will.
What I think is that in these plays people are categorized, branded with a "good" or "bad" person label, and they can't do anything to change it. Oedipus is an outcast, to be avoided and regarded with revulsion, even though he had saved the city and loved it with his whole heart such a short period before. Even though his good deeds are more numerous, it seems the evil deeds carry a heavier stain, and Oedipus can't overcome this label, because people only see the bad things that he has done.
A theme in these plays is one of human nature. When doubt arises, Oedipus, being curious must probe into his heritage, and know the truth even if it hurts. The truth does hurt, it tears apart his family and his life, and he even punishes himself more severely than others would have. We watch Oedipus' downfall, and then witness how he becomes heroic once again in death.
Also, I want to say wow, Katy. I totally agree with your view that there is always a choice. The idea of predestination appeals to my imagination, but only because it makes a good story. It is the whole plot of this story – a tragic hero driven out by the fulfillment of his destiny. Like David said “If fate rules someones life and predestination rules supreme than why even attempt to live?" Destiny seems to work in books, but I do not believe that it is applicable to real, everyday life. Katy and Dave, rock on!! :banana:
As for irony, which example would you like? Sophocles is a master at incorporating irony. It seems to be what makes these plays entertaining after so many years. Everyone has made good points about irony in The Oedipus Cycle These are my new points:
-Oedipus curses King Laios’ murderer on page 14 and does not leave himself exempt, “And as for me, this curse applies no less…” This is verbal and situational irony because it turns out that Oedipus is the cursed one and murderer, and so these words will come back to haunt him when he learns the truth.
-Oedipus says he will avenge Laios like he is his son (page 14). Oops, newsflash- YOU ARE HIS SON! :smash:
-This last point I am not sure if it is verbal irony, but I noticed that when the Messenger brought his good news that King Polybos of Corinth died, it is actually bad news. Hello, it is the only father that Oedipus knew! This news is also good in another way because it means Oedipus did not kill his father, which leads to the truth that Polybos isn't his dad!! Whew, if you can follow that I think you will see what i mean about verbal irony.

Yes, these are my thoughts, and I want to tell everyone that I hope you are living it up, because summer is flying by! Have a good one.
ASHLEY HEHL

[porterfield21]

Oedipus becomes blind to his own fate, and then in turn blames others. But also, each and every character has his/her own ladder of fate that bounces off of Oepidpus' life. Mainly his family, being his children. They watch and see how their father's life is ultimately destroyed by not only his physical blindness but also the blindness within his heart and soul. I felt that the Gods did control most of Oedipus' life, because before he was born he wasn't allowed the choice of whether or not to kill his father, is was predestined for him. However, the result and aftermath of the death of Oedipus' father was Oedipus' own choice of becoming blind, and living the life that he did.

[That Hoyer Guy]

Jonathan Hoyer

Wow, this is some awsome discussion! Now I'm wishing I would have posted sooner, all the good points have been taken :(

Anyways, I agree with Katy on Fate vs. Choice. All the different characters have many choices to make. It's not like they are robots programmed by the gods to follow one, inescapable path throughout their entire life (Well, unless you count that they aren't real people and the play was written that way, but that's besides the point). It seems like lots of characters made the wrong choices, rather than having bad prophecies. I think that all the prophecies really meant nothing on their own. They were just words, nothing more. What really matters is how the characters themselves INTERPRET those prophecies. Katy made an excellent point: What would have happened had Oedipus' parents never heard the prophecy, or ignored it? Probably everything would have turned out just fine. I mean, if the characters REALLY believe in the Gods, shouldn't they trust in them to guide their lives the right way? Oedipus boldly proclaimed on Page 9 "You shall see how I stand by you...to avenge the city and the city's god." I think he needs to practice what he preaches by actually listening to the city's god for once, or at least the prophet of the city's god. If he, and every character really, put their trust in the gods, instead of themselves, everything would have probably turned out all right. But because they relied on themselves, and made their own poor choices, they ended up dooming themselves. Who knows, the gods could have even been punishing them for not trusting in their divine power! But could any of this have happened if all actions were just "because of fate," and none of them have any free will? Of course not. All actions of humans begin with free will.

And so I'll end this with a really cool quote from the sixth Harry Potter book, which I think really parallels what I'm saying. I'll try and keep it as unrevealing as possible, in case some of you haven't read the book, and don't want it spoiled:

"He singled you out as the person who would be most dangerous to him--and in doing so, he MADE you the person who would be most dangerous to him!"
"But it comes to the same end, doesn't it?"
"No it doesn't! You are setting too much store by the prophecy! If he had never heard of the prophecy, would it have been fulfilled? Would it have meant anything? Of course not! Do you think every prophecy has been fulfilled?"

(P.S. -- I know that this post doesn't answer the original prompt. I just wanted to put down my thoughts about Fate vs. Choice. My answer post is coming soon :nod:)

[That Hoyer Guy]

Jonathan Hoyer

Okay, I'm back, here's the rest of my post.
Throughout the novel it seems like one theme that keeps coming up is the fallibility of humans. Oedipus, King Laios, Iocaste, Creon, all of them thought, "Oh, I'm such a good and smart person. :angel:" But they all were proven wrong, that they really weren't as good as they thought. Oedipus thought he was a good ruler, and had the wits to avenge his city of the curse. But he ultimately finds out that it was HIS problems, HIS actions that were the cause of the curse. He wasn't as good as he thought he was. King Laios and Iocaste also made a grave mistake. They thought they were doing the right thing in sending Oedipus away, so as not to cause pain to themselves, and to him. But BECUASE of their error in judgment, Oedipus just comes right back to them and, ultimately, kills them both. Even Creon (in Antigone) thought he was being honorable and patriotic by punishing the "treacherous" Polyneices and letting his body rot. But, surprise surprise, that very action caused his son and his son's fiancé to die. So much for "good judgment. :brickwall" This just shows that no human, no matter how great or small, is perfect. Everyone screws up and fails; it's only natural to do so. The problem with the characters in the novel is that they thought they WERE perfect, or pretty near to it. Their arrogance, as well as their fallibility, caused events to turn out like they did.

This novel is full to the brim of irony. Even though people have posted lots of examples of it, there’s so much in this book that we’ve just scratched the surface! Here's a few new ones I found:

• Page 21, “This prophet fraud—why he is no more clairvoyant than I am!” Oedipus accuses Teiresias of being a false prophet and having no more skill at phophecy than he himself does. This is dramatic irony, because in Oedipus at Colonus, Oedipus actually DOES become clairvoyant and makes correct prophecies, big ones too. So Oedipus’ accusation against Tieresias is actually a compliment!
• Page 14, “Now I…Having his bed, begetting children there upon his wife, as he would have, had he lived—their son would have been my children’s brother…” Oedipus is lamenting for King Laios in this scene. He talks about having children with Laios’ wife as if it were his duty to do so. This is dramatic irony because he already fears sleeping with his mother and having children with her. And yet, the thing he fears the most in life he boldly proclaims having done, all because he doesn’t know the truth! It kind of parallels what David said, “If you fear sleeping with your mother, then how about you don’t sleep with anyone! :smash:” Also, he talks about Iocaste’s son being his children’s brother. Well Oedipus, guess what? Since you ARE her son, you ARE your children’s brother!
• Page 31, “Would any sane man prefer Power, with all a king’s anxieties, to that same power and grace of sleep? Certainly not I. I have never longed for the king’s power…” Creon has a pretty cool speech here about his reason for staying true to Oedipus. However, it is ironic because he keeps saying he doesn’t want to be king, yet in Antigone he becomes king and uses (and perhaps abuses) the king’s power, which he said he never wanted! I’m not quite sure whether this is verbal or dramatic irony, because I can’t be sure at this point whether Creon actually DOES want the king’s power or not.
• On page 69-ish is the scene where Iocaste kills herself and Oedipus gouges out his eyes. All throughout the play Oedipus has been searching for the unknown murderer and his past. He devoted all his energy to it and wished for nothing else. But now that he finally found out the answer to both questions, he wished he hadn’t, because in doing so he cause his wife to kill herself with guilt. This is an example of “cosmic irony,” or irony that reaches tragic proportions, like death. The answer he sought for the most turned out to be the answer he wanted the least!

[KWikstrom]

Have you finished the last Harry Potter book, Jonathan? It was awesome! I loved it. Way to link the whole idea about the prophecies! I thought of Oedipus when I read it too!
Anyway, I was reading through a book of sonnets I have and I found one that made me think of another theme for The Oedipus Cycle. I don't know if it is necessarily the most important one, and it might be a little far-fetched, but I don't suppose any theme could be called outright wrong because it all depends on the interpretation of the reader. The sonnet is called 'Ozymandias ' and it is written by Percy Bysshe Shelley. I'll write it out so you guys will know what I am talking about when I refer to it.

Ozymandias
I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert...Near them, on the sand,
Half-sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

This reminded me of a quote that I had highlighted in Oedipus at Colonus : "Time watches all things steadily." I've thought about it a bit, and I've decided that a theme for all three plays could be the continual rise and fall of empires, of societies, of rulers, of families...of individual people. Life goes through a continuous cycle, soaring to the greatest heights and then sinking to the lowest depths, again and again and again for all eternity. And throughout it all Time continues, unscathed by contemporary events owing to the fact that it has seen the same cycle over and over since the beginning of History. Nothing can surprise or impress Time - it remains victorious and unmoved by all. Even mighty rulers such as Ozymandias (or Oedipus) are lost in the deserts of Time. Oedipus' family is an example: his parents, hisself, Eteocles, Polyneices, Antigone, Haemon, his mother...all had their moments of glory and then were buried in Time as new events unfolded and others after them rose and fell. Greatness is a fickle thing - often won so easily and just as soon lost. And still, Time watches all things steadily.

Oh, and about Predestination: I am seriously critical about the whole idea. I just can't believe that our lives are already planned out and decided before we are ever born. I would like to think that my own actions are going to be what makes my life the way it is, or else why even bother? What if every single person thought that their life was already planned out for them so they just sat around on their butts all day waiting for it (life) to come along? No, I definitely don't agree with it. We can obviously see throughout our lives that we have choices to make, and that those choices affect us directly.

By the way, are we going to get any feedback on these posts? Maybe when school starts?