BRING ON THE PAIN!!!

[AbdoRinbo]

Anyone here read Venus in Furs by Leopold von Sacher-Masoch? Share your thoughts if you'd like.

[Downer]

Oh yes,
A very interesting read. Don't read his letters before reading the book as his life seems to have almost entirely mirrored his writing.
To me it's one of the strangest of the erotic genre in that I can't recall there being a single sex act in the entire book, none the less it carried over a very decedant and sensual air.

I'm suprised how few people have heard of it or him when you compare it to the notoriety of Justine, or Lolita and out of the three I mcuh prefer Venus in Furs ( Justine I found really quite unpleasant, De Sade wasn't a paricularly good writer, just shocking in his time.)
The Black Czarina is well worth tracking down if you can - also a Sacher Masoch, I eventually had to buy another copy of Venus in Furs to get hold of it.

One thing I really enjoy about such books is the looks you get buying them - I have no shame and I take a perverse, dare I say Sadistic amusement in plonking them in plain view on the counter and watching a bright red shop assistant hastily shuffle them off the counter and out of view. I figure some people must take take pleasure in the humilation and embarassment of buying them.

I do wonder what constitues erotica as opposed to pornography - to be pornographic requires ( dictionary definitionwise at any rate ) the portrayal of human sexual behaviour whereas to be erotic doesn't necessarily have to but they do over lap in the middle, so where's the dividing line. I don't personaly consider de Sades stuff to be particularly erotic - Philosophy in the bedroom read like a porn script but it's interesting to see the how the use of some words had changed with time.

Out of all I've read so far I think Anais Nin comes out on top ( I wish she would............ sorry getting carried away there ) for the style and range of her writing and the fact that it seems so much more sensual when written from a womans point of view, Sacher Masoch comes close though and I can understand to some extent the appeal of a powerful attraction that you cannot consumate - though of course in his case he chose, in fact demanded to be treated like that.

any other suggestions on the erotic side of things - it's rare to get an opportunity to discuss them,
Downer

[AbdoRinbo]

From my understanding--which is limited, since I haven't actually read anything by Leopold von Sacher-Masoch--the ideology or whatever you want to call it of 'Masochism' is self-inflicted abuse (for lack of a better term) emotionally, physically and sexually; whereas Sadism is the very opposite: it is the pleasure derived from inflicting pain on others. I prefer Masoch's view over Sade's; I think Masoch has something to say about embracing awareness and abolishing 'judgement' (which will always fail us). In some way I think Masoch sides with some of the Eastern views on reality. For this reason, I find him very appealing on a personal level.

[Downer]

http://homepage.newschool.edu/~schlemoj/imptopia/sacher-masoch.html

A nice brief biography of the man himself.

[AbdoRinbo]

Thanks, Downer. I read it and enjoyed it immensely. After I get done with my current read I'm going to pick myself up a copy of Venus in Furs for sure. Let me know if there is anything you think I should keep in the back of my mind while reading (the sort of explanation you would give to someone who was just about to begin reading Dune or the Dubliners).

[AbdoRinbo]

You're too good to me, Den, you know that?

[den]

:oops:

[AbdoRinbo]

:oops:

You're a peach.

[AbdoRinbo]

'Nur . . . ein . . . Op-fer!
Sehr ins Vakuum,
("Won't somebody take advantage of me?")
Wird niemand ausnut-zen mich, auch?
("Just a slave with nobody to slave for,")
Nur ein Sklave, Her-rin (ya-ta ta-ta)
("A-and who th' heck wants ta be, free?")
Wer zum Teufel die Freiheit, braucht?

(All together now, all you masochists out there, specially those of you don't have a partner tonight, alone with those fantasies that don't look like they'll ever come true--want you just join in here with your brothers and sisters, let each other know you're alive and sincere, try to break through the silences, try to reach through and connect. . . .)

Aw, the sodium lights-aren't, so bright in Berlin,
I go to the bars dear, but nobody's in!
Oh, I'd much rather bee
In a Greek trage-dee,
Than be a VICTIM IN A VACUUM to-night!'

-- Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow, p 415)

[ihrocks]

I do wonder what constitues erotica as opposed to pornography - to be pornographic requires ( dictionary definitionwise at any rate ) the portrayal of human sexual behaviour whereas to be erotic doesn't necessarily have to but they do over lap in the middle, so where's the dividing line.

...Out of all I've read so far I think Anais Nin comes out on top for the style and range of her writing and the fact that it seems so much more sensual when written from a womans point of view.

Downer

Erotica can be erotic without ever touching on human sexuality. I think it's Lawrence in "Women in Love" who does a description of water lilies that is plainly meant to do more than broaden one's horizons on horticulture, but it is completely without a context of "human sexual behavior." In fact, I would guess you read another 100 pages before there's any "human sexual behavior" at all in that instance.

I agree with you that Nin seems to be in a class by herself, but I don't know whether it's because of the feminine point of view or because she was simply a very good writer or because she was such an acute observer of her own behavior and psychology.

For anyone interested, I would recommend reading "Tropic of Cancer" and "Henry and June" (taken from Nin's diaries) consecutively. The former is Henry Miller's tour de force that was banned for years, and the latter is Nin's record of her affairs with both Miller and Mrs. Miller, at the time that Miller was writing "Tropic of Cancer."

ihrocks