The Pilgrim's Progress

[Shea]

When I was reading Little Women, they mentioned this book by John Bunyan and lo and behold! I happened to find and old copy of it! I'm about halfway through and have found it pretty interesting and I wondered why it wasn't on this site. So far I haven't noticed if it has been scripturally inacurate (which is why I'm posting this in the Bible section).

The saddest character that I found so far is Talkative (for those of you who don't know it the book is an allegory) How sad for someone who knows what salvation is and what it means to be saved but only talks about it and never does it! :(

Has anyone else here read it?

[Shea]

Am I the only one that's ever read this?! Perhaps I should bring this thread over to the general lit. section.

Anyway, I finished it and didn't really enjoy the second part all that much. For one thing he kept talking about how the travellers would rest and would "eat, drink, and be merry" But what about this parable?

Luke 12: 15-21
Then he said to them, "Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man's life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions."
16And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.'
18"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." '
20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?'
21"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."

It seemed like they all had it kind of easy except for Great-Heart. So why did Christian have to go through all the troubles himself, when his wife and children had it all done for them?

[Arteum]

Shea,

I'm planning to read "Pilgrim's Progress" as it is a milestone in English literature. However, its "Biblical connotation" is only of historic interest to me. If you're still trying to measure, interpret and understand Bunyan's homilies by today's standards, you're trying to live the life of Pamela Andrews in the 21st century.

[Shea]

Actually, I was also trying to think about it the the standards of the author and the time that he lived in. He wrote it during the end of the reformation and after the Bible was able to be printed and more readily available than ever before. Bunyan was also a preacher and intent on keeping with God's Word.

I found the first part to be very true to what is patterned in the Bible (and could easily measure it to today's standards), but the second part kind of strayed a little and lost my interest. Bunyan himself said that his book contained "Nothing but sound and honest gospel strains," but he seemed to be lacking on some points. And where was baptism? According to the Bible that is a necessary key to salvation. Or was one of the allegorical points supposed to represent it and I missed it?

BTW, who is Pamela Andrews? I think the name is familiar, but I can't place it.

[Arteum]

Shea,

Pamela Andrews is a personage from the famous "Pamela" by S. Richardson, one of the most influential novels in English literature.

[Shea]

Oh. :oops: That must be why her name is familiar, but I'm not familiar with the story. That is one I'll have to keep in mind to read since it's so influential. :)

[Blackadder]

I read an excerpt from Bunyan a while ago in a British lit class I took. It was kind of hard for me to read because we are on opposite ends of the religious spectrum. I heard that he wrote Progress while he was in prison for preaching without a license (a way for the gov't to control what the preachers were saying to the populace--a good thing to have in the years after the English Civil War).

[imthefoolonthehill]

Shea: I have read Pilgrim's progress... in third grade...

I enjoyed it then, but haven't re-read it recently... it is still sitting on my shelf.

[Eloise]

I've read Pilgrim's Progress in an abridged version, I started the original a few years ago but got stuck, what with the 17th century language and all . . . I'll probably try it again when I get home.

On the eat-drink-and-be-merry thing, I think the point of the parable is the storing up (rather than the using up) of possessions, and how none of that's any use in the end. And didn't some people call Jesus a glutton and a wine-bibber? (Not to mention the wedding at Cana . . . ).

I thought of a couple of possibilities as to why there isn't a specific baptism. I suppose in Bunyan's time just about everybody would have been dunked (more or less) as infants, which would come before the beginning of the book, also, even today baptism doesn't occur at any set point on a person's spiritual journey so it would be difficult to fix where in the book it should go.

[Eloise]

(double post)

[Shea]

I don't know if Bunyan preached infant baptism (I'll have to look that up), but it certainly isn't scriptural. Though it is a doctrine that Martin Luther believed in, nowhere in the Bible does it say to baptize babies. It does say to Repent and be baptized as in Acts 2:38

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

A baby cannot repent because the act of repenting requires changing your way of living. If Bunyan was trying to stay true to the Word, he would have taught an adult baptizm.

Anytime the Bible talks about a NT character's Baptism, it is always at the beginning of their spiritual journey. This is where Bunyan should have mentioned it. As I thought about it later, the only place he mentioned it was in the story of the dusty room and how when the worker tried to clean it with a dry rag (representing the old law) it was getting it clean, though it was very difficult and the dust kept choking the worker. But when he was commanded to put water on the rag (representing the new law), it became much easier and he was able to clean the room. However, vague this was the only reference to baptism that I saw.

[Eloise]

Hey, I don't believe in infant baptism either! I was just saying that in europe at Bunyan's time (and for that matter in most of the christian world today) it was the norm of the established church, so he and his audience would quite possible have assumed it to have happened then.

Interestingly enough, however, if I had been infant baptised, it would have been closer to the start of my spiritual journey (which began as a young child), than when I actually was baptised, at 17. Of course, in the (very) early church, in Acts and so on, they wouldn't have had this problem because there weren't any cradle christians, as such. I suppose the closest you get the various people who are baptised with their households in Acts (chs 11, 16, 18 ), if there were children. And of course some were water-baptised before they received the holy spirit and some after (compare Cornelius' experience with that of the Apostles).

[Shea]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. :oops: As far as the household thing, that doesn't necessarily include children. I think they said housholds in order to make it clear that even servants were included too. I'll have to ask one of our elders about that.

[imthefoolonthehill]

Shea... out of curiosity... which denominations have elders? (what denomination are you in other words)

[Shea]

Titus 1:5-9
The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. 6An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. 7Since an overseer is entrusted with God's work, he must be blameless--not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. 8Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. 9He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.


I know that the Mormons have elders, my husband and I did a bible study with some once. But they were younger than me and obviously couldn't meet with any of the qualifications listed in this verse (except maybe for characteristics). Not to mention the fact that they used "elder" as a religious title.

I am a member of a Church of Christ. We are autonomous and tend to call our gathering "undenominational" due to the fact that denomination denotes division (say that 3 times fast) Anyway, think of the denominator in a fraction, it's there to divide, right?


Romans 16:17
I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

1 Corinthians 1:10
I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

1 Corinthians 11: 17-18
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it.


Anyway, back to elders, thier job is to oversee the congregation to make sure that everything is going according to scripture.


1 Peter 5:1-3
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers--not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.


I don't know if you wanted to be bombarded with scripture, but you know me, I want to try to be thorough. ;)

[imthefoolonthehill]

thanks for the info :-)

[Shea]

Anytime! 8)

[Mrs. Cat]

Shea,
Bunyan taught immersion baptism for salvation, seeing it as proof of obedience to the example of Christ's Jordan River baptism.

However, history suggests he did not believe the fellowship of believers ought to withhold the Lord's supper from nor judge the state of the soul of one who had been baptised as an infant and who wished to worship with them in sincerity. He left it up to the individual and God. Thus, he and his independent worship meetings (or, conventicles, as they were called) practiced open communion.

As the Independents grew in number, so did the number of immersions, once considered an executable offense, especially in decades prior to Bunyan's imprisonment.

I would recommend E. H. Broadbent's excellent history of the persecution of religious minorities, The Pilgrim Church, and also Foxe's Book of Martyrs, for reference while you study Pilgrim's Progress.

Mrs. Cat

BTW, I am also a member of the church of Christ.

[Shea]

Thanks for the insight! I noticed Foxe's Book of Martyrs when I was looking for info on Martin Luther. But only recently have I realized that it is very helpful to study the zietgiest of the author before you read the work. I've already finished Pilgrim's Progress, but as soon as the holiday break hits, I'll take your advise.