Congrats US?

[Danik 2016]

After all American institutions proved how solid they are.

[MANICHAEAN]

Cause & Effect.

Yes the institutions survived.

Question. How do you stop future questionable contenders? (Psychiatric evaluation? )

[Danik 2016]

A good question, Manichaean. And the dangerous precedent remains.

[tonywalt]

The waiting list for green cards to the USA from certain countries are proof of the greatness of that country. Although I am not an American I absolutely Adore the Founding Fathers - and find myself quoting from them often and lots.

“Those that can give up essential liberty to gain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Benjamin Franklin

[WolfLarsen]

Tem differencia nao entre Estados Unidos e Brasil, Danik. Sou iguais.
There is no difference between the United States and Brazil.
As coisas em Estados Unidos nao funciona igual de Brasil.
Things do not function in the United States, just like Brazil.
Eu morava em Brasil.
I lived in Brazil.
Mas Brasil e melhor dos Estados unidos.
But Brazil is still better!

[tonywalt]

Tem differencia nao entre Estados Unidos e Brasil, Danik. Sou iguais.
There is no difference between the United States and Brazil.
As coisas em Estados Unidos nao funciona igual de Brasil.
Things do not function in the United States, just like Brazil.
Eu morava em Brasil.
I lived in Brazil.
Mas Brasil e melhor dos Estados unidos.
But Brazil is still better!

I personally love the Congo. It's rich Francophone culture is something to behold.

[WolfLarsen]

Yes. It is like Québec has culture. English Canada does not. The latter is just a boring Xerox copy of the United States, albeit a less violent one.

The USA is headed in a very bad direction. And this is scary for the whole world.

Although I certainly don't want to get into a political discussion about the blue state and red state nonsense here. Except I will say that it's all a bunch of nonsense.

[WolfLarsen]

Actually, I've done a pretty bad job of explaining how I feel about America in this thread. My apologies.
I am an American. Half of my family are immigrants. Unfortunately, I do not speak their language. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.
If I were to say how I feel about the USA, I'm sure many people of Anglo-Saxon Protestant heritage would be insulted. I am very biased against the Anglo-Saxon Protestant "culture" that dominates here in the USA.
I love Latin America. Sadly, my Portuguese is fading. My Spanish is still strong. I feel that the people of Latin America are wonderful!
Southern Europe reminds me of Latin America.
The United States is an "industrialized country" without industry. I am currently living in the epicenter of the USA's "Rust Belt". The USA is becoming a basket case of a nation.
I miss Brazil so much!
At times, Brazilians get frustrated with the lack of infrastructure, depending which part of Brazil.
The United States on the other hand - much of the infrastructure is from the 19th century - and is falling apart!
Many Brazilians think that the USA has its thing together. With all due respect, they're wrong.
The Brazilians, the other Latin Americans, and the southern Europeans have a warmth and a passion about things that many Americans do not have.
Some Blacks have this passion, as do some white ethnics. "White ethnics" in America are whites who are not Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
Even amongst atheist artists in the USA, you can see this division, with many Anglo-Saxon Protestant atheist artists continuing with the dry, puritanical, minimalist art & culture of their people. Atheist artists with a Catholic heritage on the other hand, have a more passionate, more exuberant, more sensual style about their art and writing. This may be to truth, or it may just be my bias. And I am definitely biased.
I just can't stop pissing all over Anglo-Saxon Protestant "culture". And I don't apologize. The fact that we "white ethnics" become more Anglo-Saxonized with each passing generation is something that makes us culturally part of this "wasteland". We white ethnics lose something when we become Anglo Saxonized.
An important aspect of my writing is a rebellion against Anglo-Saxon Protestant "culture" in America, that seeks to impose its dry, puritanical, and passionless monotony on the rest of us.

[AuntShecky]

After all American institutions proved how solid they are.

Yes, but that horrible day was outrageous, frightening, and downright heart breaking.

I kept thinking of the quotation of the underrated Alfred E, Smith: "The only cure for the evils of democracy is more democracy."

That means exactly what it says: government by the people, not thugs or insurrectionists or worshippers of an autocrat.

Pray for the elimination of the pandemic. Pray for the disinfecting sunshine of truth. Pray for racial justice at last.

[MANICHAEAN]

The frightening thing Aunty was that any sane person could see it coming.

What Bernstein called "the mad king" was getting more and more erratic, and yet the very institutions set up to defend democracy were either over ridden and powerless on one side, or supine and career minded on the other.

But I have faith that good will come out of it. The enemies of the USA are smirking now, but underestimate the strength and re-emergence of the true values of American society.

[MANICHAEAN]

Don’t you just love these broad group categorizations?

Yesterday’s contribution was “Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture,” filled to the very brim with Jove like imagery of: sackcloth and ashes, repression; whilst spectacularly encompassing a lack of; personal passion, exuberance & sensuality.

This has as much credibility as the Q’on branch of the Micky Mouse Appreciation Society.

Let us just abandon generalities for the moment. What do we mean by Anglo-Saxon?

Does it comprise in the historical sense; Normans, Celts, Franks, Danes, Alemanni, Picts, Jutes & Lombard's?

Or are we talking about a perceived home grown American Anglo Saxon culture, based presumably on the beliefs of; white, anti-immigrant, working class, poorly educated individuals? I think this was the point that was inadequately trying to be made.

Next the Protestant aspect. Once again a portrayal of post Reformation dullness and repression.

But it all misses the point in the unnecessary generalization.

Are Protestant poets like: John Bunyan, Edmund Spencer & John Donne less passionate in their writings than Catholic counterparts like: J.H. Newman, Hilaire Belloc or Chaucer?

Conclusion:

Not all Anglo-Saxons are cold blooded, repressive, stiff upper lip kill joys, lacking imagination.

Endeavour not to fall into the mistake of those “trip off the tongue” prejudicial generalizations.

Congratulations to all: warm blooded, hand gesturing, exuberant, expressive; South Americans, Africans and indigenes south of Calais. After all my first wife was French, though I felt at times like I had married the French Revolution.

[Ecurb]

Brazil is one of the few countries that's more corrupt, racist and authoritarian than Trump's America. They didn't abolish slavery until 1888.

My reaction to the storming of the Capitol: Where was Antifa when we needed them?

[Danik 2016]

"Ecurb- Brazil is one of the few countries that's more corrupt, racist and authoritarian than Trump's America. They didn't abolish slavery until 1888."

Thanks for the praise Ecurb, though I doubt that you are the best authority to pronounce yourself on that.

I am with you Aunty, but I think it could have ended still worse. Most of your lawmakers, no matter which side they are on still have a strong sense of duty and a respect for the Constitution.

[WolfLarsen]

I'd love to join the conversation about how America is going down a bad path. And the liberal Democrats are just as much to blame as the conservative Republicans.
I have many friends who are both liberal and conservative, who vote Democrat or Republican. I have no problem with them.
But I often refrain from speaking my mind around fanatical liberals and conservatives, (I am neither). My experience is that many fanatical liberals & conservatives only believe in freedom of speech for themselves.
No, I don't vote Dixiecrat. I grew up in a place called "segregation city". It's one of the largest cities here in the USA. And it was the Democrats that made it "segregation city". And I've only been to 50 countries, but I have never seen no place more segregated than "segregation city" USA.
Brazil is very racist, as somebody else pointed out. I think it's about half as racist as the United States of America. I always thought that the rich whites in Brazil were far more racist than the working-class whites. Usually, working-class whites in Brazil live in the same neighborhoods as working-class Blacks, although not always.
I find it rather ironic that liberals support Joe Biden because Donald trumpet is racist. Joe Biden has a racist rap sheet going back to ancient times!
And the liberals on the white side of "segregation city" pay extra rent not to live next door to black people.
I, on the other hand, a working-class white man, live surrounded by black people. And yet, it seems like bourgeois liberals deride all of us working-class white people as being Archie Bunker, racist, sexist, homophobic, etc. Working-class liberals, on the other hand, often disagree with this. I have often been discriminated against by bourgeois liberals for being working-class. Bourgeois conservatives have treated me much the same way. Like garbage. Like "white trash".
Of course, having said these things, the narrative of the bourgeois liberals is that everyone that doesn't agree with them is some kind of fascist. Nothing could be further from the truth. And it is the Democratic Party that has a history of supporting fascism and the Ku Klux Klan and lynching black people. And let us not forget, that the Democrats came up with the "right to work laws" that had a negative impact on working-class whites & blacks & Latinos, making it harder for us to unionize.
Anyway, not all working-class white people that vote Republican are fascists. I know what fascists are. I am part Jewish. And in self-defense I had to fight off fascists - real fascists - with my fists here in "segregation city", a place run by the Democrats.
Anyway, I respect all of you to have your own point of view. I hope that we can keep any debate civilized. Thank you.
But looking at the pictures of the Capitol Hill riots I only saw one Confederate flag. That's one Confederate flag too many. However, that doesn't mean that the other people were fascists. And anyway, the United States government through the CIA has sponsored far more chaos in the national capitals of other countries. And the CIA did this with the support of both the Democrats and Republicans alike. My guess is is that the politicians of both political parties will use the Capitol Hill riots as an excuse to further attack our civil liberties. And as a writer I find that disgusting. The biggest threat to our freedom of speech as writers are those politicians on Capitol Hill of both political parties.

[Ecurb]

Sorry, Danik. I forgot I was insulting your country (although of course I wouldn't mind insulting JCamilo's country). You are correct that I don't know much about Brazil -- I've never been there. Here in the U.S., though, we read about Bolsonaro's corruption, about attacks bordering on genocide on indigenous people in the Amazon, and about violent and racist favelas.

The U.S. has its own problems, of course. The left is almost as bigoted, intolerant, and violent as the right. My son is a newspaper reporter, and rioters from both the left and the right despise the press, and threaten reporters with violence. Trump is partly to blame, with his constant criticism of "fake news", but antifa is just as guilty (acc. my son, who has covered the riots in Portland).
'

[Danik 2016]

Apologies accepted, Ecurb! I don´t know and it is no concern of mine what your differences with JCamilo are, but the country happens to be the same. I see the country as a kind of large family. Every one has problems and sometimes very serious ones in ones own families. But if the family is derided from the outside, this is seen, as you rightly say, as an insult.

@Larsen- I am following very closely the the events around the election and change of government in US, specially because of how they may reflect on Brazilian politics. I unfortunatelly can´t find anymore that positive CNN article of the 6th that largely expressed my own opinion. As to other aspects of US politics I am in no position to discuss them because I don´t know enough about them. To begin with I have a great difficulty of distinguishing Republicans and Democrats. I thought the Republicans were more conservative, but I am not even sure of that.

[WolfLarsen]

Nevermind all the blah blah blah gobbledygook I said before on this thread.
And actually, some of my best friends are of Anglo-Saxon Protestant heritage.
And someone of Anglo-Saxon Protestant heritage saved my hand on the job. My right hand. So I guess workers should be united, regardless of whether they are Anglo-Saxon Protestants or not. I try to forget that we've been fighting the Anglo-Saxon Protestants for thousands of years, and I try to remember that a coworker of Anglo-Saxon Protestant heritage saved my right hand.
But I'm not perfect.
Maybe what we need in the United States of America is cannibalism. I mean, things are just too partisan. Sometimes I get tired of all the partisanship and the red state blue state nonsense, and I think to myself, why don't we just eat all of these politicians, Democrat and Republican?
If we Americans could only be more Brazilian, and since Brazil seems to be only half as racist as the USA, than I think it would be a good thing for us Americans to adopt Brazilian culture. While some of my best friends are of Anglo-Saxon Protestant heritage, I sometimes feel annoyed that here in the United States it seems like the Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture is forced on us, shoved down our throats, so why don't we Americans just become more Brazilian?

[Sancho]

Haha!
In the words of the late great Hunter S. Thompson: “Get familiar with cannibalism.”

I’m not the flag-waving type, but seeing the confederate battle flag being paraded through the Capital Building was highly offensive to me. I found myself really wanting to lay my hands on that guy.

[WolfLarsen]

Haha!
In the words of the late great Hunter S. Thompson: “Get familiar with cannibalism.”

I’m not the flag-waving type, but seeing the confederate battle flag being paraded through the Capital Building was highly offensive to me. I found myself really wanting to lay my hands on that guy.

I agree.
But there appears to be only one bastard with the Confederate flag. The rest of them didn't have the Confederate flag, or so it appears from the photographs.
My concern is that the politicians of both political parties will use this incident to come up with some legislation that further erodes our civil liberties.
I feel that writers should always defend civil liberties.
And remember, if the iron fist of the police state comes smashing down on the conservatives today, in the future the same laws can be used to repress liberals, leftists, black activists, artists, and writers.

[Danik 2016]

I remember seeing that flag during the invasion so googled it just now, to see what exactly it stands for. So here it is if anyone else needs the information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_display_of_the_Confederate_battle_flag

No more comments the text speaks for itself, though not updated yet to the Capitol invasion.

[Sancho]

What I’m saying is it hurt my heart to see that flag in the U.S. Capital Building. I’m no constitutional law expert, but I don’t think that is protected speech under the 1st amendment. That’s the flag of the enemy of the United States being carried by an insurrectionist who was trying to overturn a fair and democratic election. Sashaying the confederate battle flag through the U.S. Capital is akin to spray-painting BANZAI! on the Arizona Memorial.

That said, anybody who wants to fly that flag over their double-wide can be my guest. If anybody wants to put that sticker on the bumper of their pickup truck, it’s okay by me. I wouldn’t advise them to drive through certain neighborhoods in Detroit though. You see it wasn’t so long ago in Jasper, Texas that a black man was shackled and drug to death behind a pickup truck with that exact sticker on the bumper.

[Ecurb]

What I’m saying is it hurt my heart to see that flag in the U.S. Capital Building. I’m no constitutional law expert, but I don’t think that is protected speech under the 1st amendment. That’s the flag of the enemy of the United States being carried by an insurrectionist who was trying to overturn a fair and democratic election. Sashaying the confederate battle flag through the U.S. Capital is akin to spray-painting BANZAI! on the Arizona Memorial.

That said, anybody who wants to fly that flag over their double-wide can be my guest. If anybody wants to put that sticker on the bumper of their pickup truck, it’s okay by me. I wouldn’t advise them to drive through certain neighborhoods in Detroit though. You see it wasn’t so long ago in Jasper, Texas that a black man was shackled and drug to death behind a pickup truck with that exact sticker on the bumper.

Well, flying the Confederate flag is "OK with me" in that I don't think it should be outlawed -- it's protected speech. However, it's not OK by me in the sense that I will think the flag flier is a jerk, a racist, a loser, and someone who (were it not illegal) should be (per Shakespeare) "beaten into a clamorous whinging."

[WolfLarsen]

I used to fight these Confederate flag guys with my fists. Especially the ones with the northern accents. While I don't think anybody, including Southerners, should fly the Confederate flag, I was never quite sure why some Southerner was flying that flag. But when a northerner flies that Confederate flag, you know the reason!
Anyway I think my fighting days are over. I need a new body. Give me a new body, and I'll fight those Confederate flag guys again! I've never been in favor of irresponsible violence, but...
Anyway, I was NEVER in favor of the US government banning the Confederate flag. If the US government bans the Confederate flag today, tomorrow they will ban the flags of everyone on the left, including the flags of black activists, socialists, communists, etc.
Especially as writers, I think we should be suspicious of governments. Governments always seem to want to censor writers. Somebody is always trying to censor writers.

[Sancho]

Yeah, it’s weird how many of those flags you see up in the panhandle of Idaho?!

I didn’t really mean to go down the free-speech rabbit hole here. Our 1st amendment rights under the U.S. Constitution are just a side show to the big show of what happened in D.C. last week. But here we are, so what the hey. By and large I think offensive speech is protected but hate speech is not. Also yelling “FIRE” in a crowded theater is not protected speech. That may be where the president ran afoul of the bill of rights when he incited the mob to take the Capital.

As for Confederate Flag Dude, a poetic sentence for him would be to carry that flag alone through one of the aforementioned tough neighborhoods in Detroit.

How’d you like “Big Rock Candy Mountain,” Ecurb?

[JCamilo]

Apologies accepted, Ecurb! I don´t know and it is no concern of mine what your differences with JCamilo are, but the country happens to be the same. I see the country as a kind of large family. Every one has problems and sometimes very serious ones in ones own families. But if the family is derided from the outside, this is seen, as you rightly say, as an insult.

His problem is that he does not know Budha legend. Anyways, why do bother when someone talks about other nation and then just come saying that he actually know nothing about the country? The guy just admits he attacked an entire nation based on prejudice, which is basically racist, but is complaning about Trump and Bolsonaro.

Anyways, lets not be naive. Neither Brazil is half or twice more racist than USA. We have erased from our history the history of racism, we may not have needed a civil war to end slavery (and ending slavery was hardly the one problem), but we created a myth of a racial harmony that prevented us to combat the socio-economic structures that reflected our racism until recently.

Bolsonaro problem is hardly his corruption. It is his mediocrity. He is a small-minded kind of corrupt and there is a lot of blablabla coming of how South-American countries (and asians, africans) are corrupts, because welll, the whole "We are superior in the north" has to blame the countries that they explore for the problems in the world. But corruption exists to preserve power and control wealth. Where is power and wealth? So, you know who is really very corrupt.

And it is wishful thinking that USA institutions prevailed. If anything, they have a huge crisis. It is not because Trump was trying to explore the voting system that is a good system. The two parties? The police (lets remember it is state security)? The health authorites? Even the presidency. All those conflicts are in the end about the instability and lack of credibility of the institutions (and this include non-public institutions as well, such Univeristies, Media). Trump expolored it, but his end will not just restore all those institutions just like super-heroes movies with Female or African American protagonists will not be enough.

In the end, Herman Melville was just amazing. Almost every single of his book works as an allegory of those conflicts. That almost makes Moby Dick the greatest american citzen of all time.

[Ecurb]

How’d you like “Big Rock Candy Mountain,” Ecurb?

I can see why you listed it as a contender for "Great American Novel". Not only is it a great novel, but Bo Mason embodies a certain type of the American Dream (which is also embodied by Donald Trump, and thus appropriate to this thread). He's a con man and a grifter. He wants to head off to the Yukon to prospect for gold. He's full of energy; he's smart; he could become rich through hard work and dilligence. But he doesn't see that as "SUCCESS". Instead, he thinks hustling people asserts his power over them, and confirms his mental and physical superiority.

Elsa is another archetype: the ideal wife and mother, who is loyal to her husband except when loyalty to her children demands otherwise.

Apparently the shocking conclusion to Bo's life actually happened to Wallace Stegner's father. He delayed publishing the novel until his father was dead (and presumably changed the ending to reflect the nature of his death).

JCamilo's theory about "The Happy Prince" is nonsensical. Perhaps he thinks "The Selfish Giant" also represents a Buddhist legend. Those nail holes in the little boy's hands represent The Buddha's stigmata! What bunk!

If Bolsonaro's problem is his mediocrity, I'd suggest that mediocrity is Trump's saving grace. Think how much trouble he could cause if he were competent enough to get anything done!

[WolfLarsen]

J Camilo is right about many Brazilians being in denial about racism in their country. And also how this propaganda of no racism has helped give the ruling elites in Brazil a propaganda edge.
But there is no way that Brazil is as racist as the USA!
The thing is, the only difference between Donald Trump and Joe Biden is that Donald Trump definitely looks more delicious. In fact, Donald Trump looks more delicious than Bolsonaro. And now that many Americans have hunger, I think this is an important factor to consider.
I think J Camilo, if I understood correctly, is saying that it's not relevant whether a politician is of this race or that race, or that gender or the other, and I believe him to be correct.
I still believe Brazil to be an infinitely superior country to the USA! In fact, I've only been to if over 50 countries, but every single country I've been to is better than the USA.
But J Camilo was also correct in pointing out that Brazil has its problems. So maybe the United States of America should look somewhere else for an example to follow.
Take China for instance. China has industry. It is an industrialized country. I think you could hardly consider the USA to be an industrialized country anymore. So what we should do is follow China's model. I was in China. I could feel that the country was progressing.
So I think Americans need to be more Chinese.
But frankly, being Brazilian is a lot more fun. As long as you have something to eat. Maybe while Americans eat Trump Brazilians can eat Bolsanaro. And just to be bipartisan we could eat Joe Biden and Lula too.
Tenho muitos saudades de Brasil!

[tonywalt]

Humans are naturally tribal, hence the above. I accept it. It is time we all accept it. (It's not going away). But yea, it's ugly.

[Danik 2016]

Hi, JCamilo, I somehow expected you to turn up. I hope you are fine. In fact, I´m repentant of having opened this thread. The discussion is getting into deeper waters, than I expected. I was exhilarated that the majority of US Congress voted according to conscience but I don´t want to discuss Brazilian issues here.

[WolfLarsen]

Fair enough. I'll leave Brazil out.
I think America went wrong back in the recession of 1982. That's when we started to lose so much industry.
Imagine an "industrialized nation" without industry.
In the recession of 1982 my father lost his job designing machinery.
So many other people lost their jobs too. They lost good paying union blue-collar jobs.
Meanwhile, in 1982, everyone in the Soviet Union had a job. And if you worked you had guaranteed housing, free childcare, free medical care, a decent pension for old age, and free college education for your kids.
Maybe the USA should be more like the Soviet Union.
But without the Stalinist hacks.
The Stalinist hacks stomped all over the freedom of writers and artists.
Trotsky defended the writers and the artists and their freedom to create. Stalin killed Trotsky with an ice pick.
When I take the train from Chicago to New York City all I see is one closed down factory after another. What does America produce now? Hamburgers?
People need decent paying jobs. Without that, America is a declining empire just like Rome. Except America is a declining empire armed with tons of nuclear weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if we all live to see human extinction.
Every book ever written, every painting ever painted, every sculpture ever sculpted, will all just fade into dust. Along with the human race.

[Sancho]

Comparisons can be fun and informative though, even if they’re only anecdotal. I haven’t been to Brazil in around 10 years, but I used to go there frequently, mostly São Paulo and Rio, but also Brasilia, Fortaleza, and Recife. Never made it to Manaus. The thing that struck me most about about the differences between our two countries is the way I am treated when I’m just bumming around town. Brazilians have a warmth about them that I don’t feel in most U.S. cities. I love those corner lunch counters they have all over São Paulo. Nine times out of ten when I’d sit down and order a smoothie and an empanada, somebody would sit down next to me and strike up a conversation. That almost never happens in the U.S. of A.

As for structural racism, I think over the curve of our history we’re generally moving in the right direction. Progress can be agonizingly slow and sometimes it’s two steps forward and one one step back, but big picture wise we’ve gotten better over the years. Of course there’s still work to be done, and the last four years feels like a giant step back, but I’m still optimistic about the future. Fix the institutions and the hearts and minds will follow, or so the theory goes. It ain’t gonna be fixed in my lifetime, but it’s gotten a lot better. I grew up in South Carolina during the sixties and seventies, and I’ve seen huge improvements there. When I was growing up the confederate battle flag flew on our statehouse, just below the United States flag and the state flag. It’s gone now. Hallelujah.

Ecurb, thanks. I never knew that detail about the book and Stegner’s father.

Wolf, I don’t know, man. I’ve always been more of a bean eater. Beans and Cornbread Mmm-Mmm good.

Hey, anybody else find this website super slow to load a page?

[Sancho]

Whoops, we’re tandem posting, Wolf. I was responding to your earlier entry.

Cheers

[JCamilo]

JCamilo's theory about "The Happy Prince" is nonsensical. Perhaps he thinks "The Selfish Giant" also represents a Buddhist legend. Those nail holes in the little boy's hands represent The Buddha's stigmata! What bunk!

Not mine only. Jorge Luis Borges too. I am pretty sure a nonsensical joke about something I never said about another tale is satisfactory to you. To me, Sharing ideas with Borges is quite better.


If Bolsonaro's problem is his mediocrity, I'd suggest that mediocrity is Trump's saving grace. Think how much trouble he could cause if he were competent enough to get anything done!

Trump is a hell more competent than Bolsonaro. Probally a hell more competent than his predecessors republicas presidents (which is, granted, not a great feat). Trump problem is the kind of people he gave voice and power to keep himself in power and how those people answered to historical, scientifical, ethical denialism which obviously damaged the respect for institutions in USA. Bolsonaro is something way bellow. He was a failed militar (never got a higher promotion because his superiors deemed him unfit), tryied to blow a bomb on a military building, failed, was judged, condemend and to keep the image of the Army clean (it was a few years after after the end of the militar cup here) they deemed him a unfit and a retirement. He used it to claim he was going to blew a building because he was fighting for better salaries for the police, got elected and spend more than 20 years in the congress, jumping from one small party to another, proposing only 2 projects (both didnt survive) and became president. He just cannt do all the damange he was supposed to do and his money come from small drug dealers and militar militias that control part of the crime in Rio de Janeiro. It is comic of how bad he is. (For those who will be alive in 100 years).

[JCamilo]

Hi, JCamilo, I somehow expected you to turn up. I hope you are fine. In fact, I´m repentant of having opened this thread. The discussion is getting into deeper waters, than I expected. I was exhilarated that the majority of US Congress voted according to conscience but I don´t want to discuss Brazilian issues here.

I honestly hope things could improve, considering the impact Trump had here, activelly helping Bolsonaro to get elected (if not him, at least the same group). But i do not have good memories of Democrats, who were behind the help given to Sergio Moro and the cup against Dilma. I am cynical, once a country goes bananas, it is hard to get out the peel.

[WolfLarsen]

I'm too crazy to be a communist, so I guess I'll just be a cannibal instead.
But I promise to be bipartisan in my culinary adventures!
And I do believe bipartisanship is a delicious solution to the problems of the USA!

[Ecurb]

Not mine only. Jorge Luis Borges too. I am pretty sure a nonsensical joke about something I never said about another tale is satisfactory to you. To me, Sharing ideas with Borges is quite better.

.

"Sharing"? It wasn't your idea, JCamilo. Besides, you are now just making another ad hominem argument -- if Jorge Luis Borge made a claim, it MUST be right. Actually, Borge translated "The Happy Prince" when he was nine years old. It was his first published work. JCamilo's admiration for the ideas of a nine-year-old sounds about right.

Arguing with JCamilo is like swimming upstream. Strive as one might, one never seems to get anywhere. That's because JCamilo isn't actually interested in ideas, only in declaring his knowledge of Borge's silly notions.

I didn't know about Stegner's father, either, Sancho, until I read "Big Rock Candy Mountain". Then I got curious and looked it up.

[JCamilo]

This is a bit embarassing. Christianism is not the invention of anyone alive, yet, several christiams share the same idea, Ecurb. The meaning of the word is not that complicated.

And yes, Young Borges (or his mother, as he like to claim) translated The Happy Prince, but it was not the 9 years old who made the comparassion betweeh the two stories, but the decades old, notable reference as critic and teacher of english poetry, student of budhism (with books, speeches and eassays about the subject) who did. You just called it silly. How cute. Not more cute than trying to teach someone which pos-graduation dissertation was about Jorge Luis Borges about some minor anedtocte about his life.

And man, you picked Ad Hominem because it is latinized? Because an ad hominem attack is a personal insult. It is not the use of an authority to back up a claim. You dont know something to basic and is calling "Borge's silly notions". Isnt that worst than you racism towards Brasil and Brazilians motivated by a petty juvenile attack against me.

Embarassing.

[WolfLarsen]

I don't think the United States of America deserves congratulations for anything. Certainly not the government.
It's the Demopublican clowns versus the Republicrat clowns. Most of them are even worse actors than Ronald Reagan! Maybe that's why Hillary Clinton praised Ronald Reagan, because he wasn't as bad as an actor as most of them.
It's time for a third party! I'm in favor of a Multiracial Cannibalism Party. Either we need more blue-collar union jobs, or we need cannibalism! And I'm not interested in eating other working-class people, because many working-class people in America are not eating very well right now. Many working-class people in the United States of America are experiencing hunger right now! So I'm ready to eat me some rich person that's well-nourished! I want some delicious rich steak to eat!
Communists (Trotskyist) are more in favor of a multiracial workers party. However, as I said before I'm too crazy to be a communist.
Or how about a Multiracial Pee Party? Americans of all races and sexual preferences and national origins and religions and genders congregate at the city halls, state legislatures, Capitol Hill, the White House, & the Supreme Court and we pee at the entrances. We would not actually storm these buildings. No, no, no! We would just pee at their entrances. It's a form of nonviolent protest. Actually, it's more because in spite of all the taxes we pay here in the USA, there's not enough public toilets!
Maybe we could have a variety of different political parties in America.
Anyway, I don't believe America deserves congratulations. There was no choice between Joe Trump & Donald Biden.
I think we need a better environment of freedom of speech in America. In spite of all the propaganda about freedom of speech, we seem to have less freedom to do anything than any other country I have been in. For example, in most other countries nobody bothers you if you pee on a tree when you can't find a public toilet. But in America, if you pee on a tree, some cop comes over and physically threatens you. I hear it's even worse if you're black. In America, it's a democracy for the dogs. Because the dogs have the right to pee, but you don't. The animals have more rights than we do! That's what's wrong with America! So congratulations to the dogs of the United States of America for having more rights than we do!
You know what I'm now thinking? Nevermind cannibalism, let's eat the dogs instead! I've eaten dog. It's delicious! Maybe we need a Dog Eating Party! Seriously, I get so jealous when I have to pee, and there's not a public toilet in sight, and I see a dog peeing on a tree, and I'm thinking that dog has more rights than I do!
So in America, there's not enough public toilets, we don't have the right to pee on a tree, and how much freedom do we writers & artists in the USA have?
Here in the USA there's always some politically correct Democratic-voting prude trying to censor your writing or your comedy or something. Or sometimes it's a born-again Christian Republican-voting prude trying to censor your writing or your comedy or something. It's bipartisan censorship! The USA is a terrible environment to be a writer! We don't have enough freedom! We writers & artists & comedians need more freedom in the USA! The USA feels like a police state! One out of four people in jail in the world is in jail in the United States of America! Do you think that this is a free environment conducive to creativity for writers & artists?
I felt more freedom in Brazil! I felt more freedom everywhere else I ever was! Congratulations to the rest of the world for not being the United States of America!

[Ecurb]

This is a bit embarassing. Christianism is not the invention of anyone alive, yet, several christiams share the same idea, Ecurb. The meaning of the word is not that complicated.

And yes, Young Borges (or his mother, as he like to claim) translated The Happy Prince, but it was not the 9 years old who made the comparassion betweeh the two stories, but the decades old, notable reference as critic and teacher of english poetry, student of budhism (with books, speeches and eassays about the subject) who did. You just called it silly. How cute. Not more cute than trying to teach someone which pos-graduation dissertation was about Jorge Luis Borges about some minor anedtocte about his life.

And man, you picked Ad Hominem because it is latinized? Because an ad hominem attack is a personal insult. It is not the use of an authority to back up a claim. You dont know something to basic and is calling "Borge's silly notions". Isnt that worst than you racism towards Brasil and Brazilians motivated by a petty juvenile attack against me.

Embarassing.

Verbal jousting with JCamilo is like fighting a five-year-old. Victory is easy, but there's not much glory in it.

"Ad hominem" means "to the man". An argument is "ad hominem" if instead of arguing on the basis of facts (in this case the text of the story) someone argues that an argument is correct (or incorrect) because of who is making the argument. I thought every educated person knew this. Hmmmm. What does this say about JCamilo's education?

I tried looking up Borges critique of "The Happy Prince", but I can't find it. Perhaps JCamilo (instead of merely asserting that Borges agrees with him) can enlighten us all as to why Borges thinks a story with such obvious Christian symbolisms and messages is "Buddhist". Typical of JCamilo's style, he seems uninterested in actually discussing literature, and more interested in name dropping.

The notion that my claim that Brazil is just as racist as the U.S. (if not more so) makes ME a racist is so silly it need not be refuted. It's posts like this that make JCamilo seem like a tiny, yapping terrier, barking at my heels. He isn't dangerous; he can't bite; but the yapping gets annoying after a while.

[Ecurb]

By the way, I posted about Brazil's history of racism only because WolfLarsen claimed Brazil was a superior country to the U.S. It had nothing to do with any of the Brazilians who post here, although I did mention my ongoing enmity with JCamilo in the post. Self defense is reasonable.

[Sancho]

Wolf! Ha! You crack me up, and you may be onto something. As a young man I was once arrested for urinating in public. Well okay, I wasn’t really arrested. I was just held down at the station for a few hours until the desk sergeant made it known that he wouldn’t mind too much if I just walked away. Not sure that’s a solid basis for new political party though.

[JCamilo]

Verbal jousting with JCamilo is like fighting a five-year-old. Victory is easy, but there's not much glory in it.

"Ad hominem" means "to the man". An argument is "ad hominem" if instead of arguing on the basis of facts (in this case the text of the story) someone argues that an argument is correct (or incorrect) because of who is making the argument. I thought every educated person knew this. Hmmmm. What does this say about JCamilo's education?

Says little. But a lot about yours:

Ad Hominem is as I described an appeal to personal offenses. Like when you repeatedly try to talk about my education or how I am a five years old.

Here is Merriam-Webster definition for you:

ad hominem adjective
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ad ho·​mi·​nem | \ (ˈ)ad-ˈhä-mə-ˌnem , -nəm \
Definition of ad hominem (Entry 1 of 2)
1: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
an ad hominem argument
2: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made made an ad hominem personal attack on his rival

I am pretty sure you will still try to look smart, but it is damn impossible when you try to use expressions or words without knowing the meaning. It embarassing. Go discuss with merriam-webster.


I tried looking up Borges critique of "The Happy Prince", but I can't find it. Perhaps JCamilo (instead of merely asserting that Borges agrees with him) can enlighten us all as to why Borges thinks a story with such obvious Christian symbolisms and messages is "Buddhist". Typical of JCamilo's style, he seems uninterested in actually discussing literature, and more interested in name dropping.

Have you looked at it like you looked the meaning of Ad Hominem in a dictionary? But oh well, the funny thing is that your main claim is that Happy Prince has "obvious christian symbolism" and therefore cannot be a version of the Buda story. Somehow, you think Christianism is a whole original ideal, that never borrowed themes and symbols from other stories. And the funny thing... There is a whole essay named Forms of a Legend, published in Other Inquisitions where he discusses exactly how christianism absorbed Budha with the legend of Barlaam and Josaphat and that in the end mentions (translation mine, I obviously have no motive to read Borges in english or have any of his books in english): And in the end of the XIX century, Oscar Wlde, suggested a version: a happy prince dies in the reclusion of the palace, without discovering the pain, but his effigy watches it from the top of his pedestal. I didnt even try hard to, it was the first book I opened to look for it.

So, this is one more of your attempts to insult me falling flat on your face.


The notion that my claim that Brazil is just as racist as the U.S. (if not more so) makes ME a racist is so silly it need not be refuted. It's posts like this that make JCamilo seem like a tiny, yapping terrier, barking at my heels. He isn't dangerous; he can't bite; but the yapping gets annoying after a while.

You cannt read, can you? You are racist not because you claimed Brazil is more racist than US, you are racist because you decided to make a broad negative comment about Brazil and Brazilians and even confessed to not know anything about the topic. And had the petty audacity to justify it based on your childish monomania with me. And no, do you think anyone here is an idiot? I wasnt even posting here, mentioned here or anything else. And if Wolf was somehow harsh, this does not justify your reaction and racism. One can easily defend USA without attacking Brazil, even more when the thread starter was a Brazilian praising Americans. All you did it is to add more feats to a shameful list.

Your attitude is no better than the attitude of those radical Trump supporters or Bolsonaro. From an ethical point of view you act guided by ignorance, bitterness and pettiness. You just lack their power to do anything than attempt to hit cheap jabs at me and then, the hipocrysy!, winne how I have no interest for "debating". Get real dude, when a simple dictionary entry is enough, you are not in conditions to discuss Borges.

[Ecurb]

I didn't bother to read JCamilo's post. Long and dreary experience warns me against even attempting it.

Enough of this petty sniping, though! To return to a more literary bent, I'll quote Kent, from King Lear, who may or may not have been referring to JCamilo as:


A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a
base, proud, shallow, beggarly, three-suited,
hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a
lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson,
glass-gazing, super-serviceable finical rogue;
one-trunk-inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a
bawd, in way of good service, and art nothing but
the composition of a knave, beggar, coward, pandar,
and the son and heir of a mongrel *****: one whom I
will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest
the least syllable of thy addition.

[WolfLarsen]

The Demopublicans & Republicrats are just two different sects of Looney Tunes with the nuclear button at their disposal.
The Demopublicans & Republicrats are so crazy that even I notice!
I don't know whether communism or cannibalism will save us here in the USA, but we need something besides choosing between the Looney Tunes of Demopublican & Republicrat.
I'm sorry Sancho about your bad experience.
Here in the puritanical police state of the USA they charge people as "sex offenders" for peeing on a tree. And people in the courtroom are like: "I wasn't sex offending no tree Your Honor, I was peeing on the tree!"
Here in Blue State liberal Chicago I was put on trial for drinking a beer in public. Imagine that! Put on trial for drinking a beer!

[Sancho]

Ha! And often times, Wolf, your offense leads to my offense, eh?

In the words of Rodney King, “Can we all just get along?”

I think one of the striking things about the Capital raiders is how they assumed they were supposed to be there. They didn’t hide their faces as most criminals would while committing a crime. In fact, many of them live-streamed the insurrection and even posted pictures on their social media accounts of themselves in the act of the crime. One guy had his work I.D. on a lanyard around his neck - yer busted. One guy had his old Air Force Squadron patch on his body armor vest - yer busted. I like the picture of the guy hauling off the Speaker’s podium while grinning and waving to the camera - yer busted. The most picturesque of the insurgents was of course the tatted up dude in the Viking helmet - yer busted too.

What is it about old Nordic paraphernalia that brings out the inner whiteness in some people? Or what is it in the soul of a white suprematist that makes him want to dress up as a Viking? The Nazis certainly liked Viking imagery. So did the KKK. I’m about halfway through a good book about the Vikings - “Children of Ash and Elm, a History of the Vikings” The writer touches on these subjects. He also dispels a lot of our assumptions about Viking culture. At any rate, I can recommend this book to you-all. It gets the Sancho stamp of approval.

Back to the insurrectionists. I think largely they were filled with indignation over the election results. There were a few who genuinely believed the election was stolen, but most of were simply indigent over the fact that black and brown people decided to vote this time around. And that’s despite the attempts of one certain political party to suppress the vote. So hooray for Stacy Abrams. She is a good example of how one person can change the world. And she did by seeing clearly what needed to be done and then by ten years of hard work.

[Logos]

wow, it's been a long time since I've had to close a thread!

Please remember ..

7. Discussion of current politics is not allowed (http://www.online-literature.com/forums/showthread.php?76899-gt-Forum-Rules).

Cheers,

;)