William Dorrit

[kev67]

IMO William Dorrit, Amy Dorrit's father, is the star of this book. He is the best drawn character. He expresses himself so carefully, as if he is walking a tightrope. He has a great sense of injured dignity. It is important to him that he was always a gentleman, even when he had to beg, even when he suspected other people found him ridiculous. I think Mr Dorrit is one of Dickens' greatest characters, up there with Miss Haversham and Mr Micawber.

[Danik 2016]

I like him too. It seems he is modelled on Dickens own father.

[kev67]

I like him too. It seems he is modelled on Dickens own father.

I thought Dickens based Mr Micawber on his father.

[Danik 2016]

Sure. But if I rightly remember, is Mr Micawber the comic version, while Mr Dorrit is a more somber and more realistic version of the same personage.

[kev67]

I suppose they are both very articulate. Mr Dorrit is usually quite careful how he expresses himself. He always hunts for the best word or phrase in keeping with his sense of dignity. They both share a sort of cognitive dissonance about keeping a station in life, but needing to beg.

[kev67]

Sure. But if I rightly remember, is Mr Micawber the comic version, while Mr Dorrit is a more somber and more realistic version of the same personage.

I just read that Dickens' father, John Dickens, was sent to the Marshalsea debtors' prison in 1824. They had been living beyond their means (like Mr Micawber). So, yes I suppose William Dorrit could be a more sombre version of Dickens' father.

[Danik 2016]

Unfortunately its a long time ago I read Little Dorrit. I used to know Dickens almost by heart. There are other figures that keep recuring in his books. For example I imagine that Dora, if she had not died might have become Flora.

[kev67]

I suppose that's true. I did like Dora. I think both G.K. Chesteron and George Orwell, in their essays on Dickens, preferred Dora Spenlow to Agnes Wickfield.

[Jackson Richardson]

William Dorrit is profoundly selfish particularly toward his brother and youngest daughter, and yet tragic in his selfishness.

There are two dreadful parents in the book. Amy has her father. Arthur Clennam has his mother, and for me Mrs Clennam is the most powerful character is the book. She is a precursor of Miss Havisham and like her gains manipulative power over others by punishing herself. She is also deeply tragic.

[kev67]

Mrs Clennam struck me as a prototype for Miss Haversham when I saw the BBC TV serial.

[Danik 2016]

I like her too. And I think Miss Haversham is one of the most interesting Dickens figures, because of her symbolic meaning.

[kev67]

Fanny Price becomes much more entertaining in the second half of the book. I enjoy the way she is half affectionate and half insulting to her too-good-to-be-true little sister. She knows she's brassy. I thought it was funny in the chapter I just read that she exhorted Amy to object if Mr Dorrit introduced the subject of his marrying Mrs General, but then went on to say that she knew Amy would not object with any conviction and that it would have no effect. I think there is something quite clever about it. She knows the minds of others and is self-aware.

[Jackson Richardson]

I think that is a typo for Fanny Dorrit. As I remember she is not a sympathetic character at all until, after having captured the brainless Edmund Sparkler to score off his ghastly mother (bird be quite), all goes pear shaped in ways I don't remember.

But I can't remember her being in any way affectionate to Amy. She is another example of the "prison taint" but in a different way to her father and brother. The taint means a lack of human sympathy as a result of trying too assert oneself in a humiliating position. Although most of us will suspect Amy of being to good to be true, she never does. She accepts where she is and so transcends it.

I must re-read the book this year.

The thing that irritates me is how Amy is repeatedly denied her name by the narrator and Arthur, calling her "Little". I am equally irritated how Emily Peggoty in David Copperfield is always called Little Em'ly. Why can't she have the middle vowel of her name?

[kev67]

I think that is a typo for Fanny Dorrit. As I remember she is not a sympathetic character at all until, after having captured the brainless Edmund Sparkler to score off his ghastly mother (bird be quite), all goes pear shaped in ways I don't remember.

But I can't remember her being in any way affectionate to Amy. She is another example of the "prison taint" but in a different way to her father and brother. The taint means a lack of human sympathy as a result of trying too assert oneself in a humiliating position. Although most of us will suspect Amy of being to good to be true, she never does. She accepts where she is and so transcends it.

I must re-read the book this year.

The thing that irritates me is how Amy is repeatedly denied her name by the narrator and Arthur, calling her "Little". I am equally irritated how Emily Peggoty in David Copperfield is always called Little Em'ly. Why can't she have the middle vowel of her name?

There was Little Nell as well, although I have not read that book. My favourite BookTuber (YouTuber who talks about books) is a huge Charles Dickens fan. Her favourite Dickens book is Our Mutual Friend, and her second favourite is Dombey and Son. These are unusual choices, but I am sure it is because the young, female characters are more forceful. In Our Mutual Friend there is a big, strong girl who does something hysically heroic, and a small, crippled girl who is nevertheless very resourceful. I have not read Dombet and Son, but I hear it is more about the daughter.

Fanny Dorrit is not nice, but she is entertaining,

[Danik 2016]

With Little Dorrit l there might be an intention of tenderness towards the heroine, with Little Nell almost certainly. In "Little Em'ly" there is added another element, I think: the omission of the vowel points to the way Emilys name is pronounced in the fisher´s community she belongs to. It is a social mark.

[Jackson Richardson]

I think: the omission of the vowel points to the way Emilys name is pronounced in the fisher´s community she belongs to. It is a social mark.

It is indeed a mark of social class and that's why I find it patronising and sentimental. The middle class characters speech is not rendered phonetically because of course they speak normally.

[Jackson Richardson]

As regards Amy and Fanny, it is noticeable that they both in very different ways have energy whereas their father, brother and uncle certainly do not. Indeed William Dorrit is a good example of negative energy drawing everyone he meets into his fantasy as Father of the Marshelsea.

[kev67]

William Dorritt was suitably punished. Dickens generally punishes his bad characters according their crimes. William Dorritt is not a villain or monster. He's just vain, selfish and pathetic.

His increasing dementia was done quite well, although rather more sudden than in real life. I noticed his speech became more hesitant. He was still articulate, but he said more 'hums' than early on in the book.

[Danik 2016]

I quite agree, Jackson. But then David Copperfield addopts a patronising tone when writing about the Pegottys. Although he loves them he is conscious of the social differences.

[Jackson Richardson]

The two Dickens heroines admired by kev's critic are Bella Wilfer in Our Mutual Friend and Florence Dombey in Dombey and Son.

Bella starts of as a brat and is almost a comic version of Estella, but married love and motherhood transform her into an angel in the house, which I imagine many feminists would be very uneasy about. (She is much nicer though less funny as a result.)

Come to think of it, Florence is very similar to Amy - both are taken for granted by their fathers and suffer patiently doing their duty. Mr Dombey is a far less interesting character than Mr Dorrit, more a conventional heavy. At least he learns at last to appreciate Florence.

I agree Mr Dorrit isn't a villain. Like Mrs Clennam he is tragic. They both mess up their children's lives. Despite all his sentimentality about the family, Dickens instinctively knew how it could go very wrong. A pity he didn't bear that in mind in his treatment of his own wife, poor soul.

[kev67]

The two Dickens heroines admired by kev's critic are Bella Wilfer in Our Mutual Friend and Florence Dombey in Dombey and Son.

Bella starts of as a brat and is almost a comic version of Estella, but married love and motherhood transform her into an angel in the house, which I imagine many feminists would be very uneasy about. (She is much nicer though less funny as a result.)

Come to think of it, Florence is very similar to Amy - both are taken for granted by their fathers and suffer patiently doing their duty. Mr Dombey is a far less interesting character than Mr Dorrit, more a conventional heavy. At least he learns at last to appreciate Florence.

I agree Mr Dorrit isn't a villain. Like Mrs Clennam he is tragic. They both mess up their children's lives. Despite all his sentimentality about the family, Dickens instinctively knew how it could go very wrong. A pity he didn't bear that in mind in his treatment of his own wife, poor soul.

Actually, my booktuber critic's heroines out of Our Mutual Friend were Lizzie Hexham and Jenny Wren. Lizzie Hexham was a big, strong girl who bodily lifted her gentleman friend to safety. Jenny Wren was small and handicapped, I think she had rickets or something like that, but she was a forceful character who looked after her alcoholic father and scratched a living making dolls' clothes. I have not read Dombey and Son, but I think the point was that Mr Dombey wanted an heir to take over his company, but it was his daughter who was the capable one. I used to wonder why my booktuber critic rated Our Mutual Friend as her favourite book, because most fans would pick Great Expectations, Bleak House, A Tale of Two Cities or David Copperfield.

[Danik 2016]

Our Mutual Friend is one of my favorites too. I think, some of the figures and plot developments are more complex than in earlier novels and there is a lot of symbolism in it, starting with the riches obtained through a mount of garbage.

Lizzie Hexham reminds me a bit of Emily Pegotty, but in every sense tougher, more mature and more resilient.

[Jackson Richardson]

Lizzie Hexham reminds me a bit of Emily Pegotty, but in every sense tougher, more mature and more resilient.

I was thinking of the comparison as well. They are both working class women. But Lizzie is a character in her own right, whereas Little Em'ly is only seen through the sentimental eyes of David and Mr Pegotty. Steerforth of course sees something else in her and she may well have welcomed the change.

[Danik 2016]

I agree, Jackson. She is mainly seen through the eyes of two men who idealize her and that certainly limits the character.

Just a curiosity. Julia Lopes de Almeida, our first female author, who wrote her novels during the first decades of 20 C, seems to have based one of the characters of her novel Cruel Love on Little Em´ly. The novel is not so good, but the girls struggle between convention and desire is represented more realistically than in David Copperfield.