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Thread: Mr Rochester...

  1. #16
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    As I have said before (which you might not have seen/read), following research about the King Lear allusion (Off ye lendings), I concluded there is a transformation in Rochester. In contradiction to how you think I interpret Rochester, and more to the point how I get to have the opinion I have of him, I do not use any moral modern grounds, far less a theological interpretation where I doubt that it wasn’t intended by the writer. My demonic interpretation of Rochester and connected with that on another level his narcissism, is based on the coming-together of allusions and images. Transformation in romantic literature is not rare. You can find it in Austen, Brontë, Dumas, Hugo and more writers I can’t remember off the top of my head. What you fail to see is that Rochester after Jane has left has realised that he was in the wrong. The fact that he rescues his servants is a normal thing, but that he risks his life for Bertha is a totally different thing on the whole and is brought on by Jane and the realisation of the real extent of love. Suddenly he has realised that the absence of Jane/love in his life makes him wretched and not the presence of Bertha (before you get to see what I wrote about Céline and Rochester’s relationship, I think he thought he loved her, but realises when Jane leaves (again) that that was not at all true). He has suddenly realised that when one doesn’t have people around and when one is/feels alone in the world that one is really wretched. He realised after Jane left that when he went up in Bertha’s room with Jane, Briggs, Wood and Mason, denouncing Bertha as his wife, he really reduced her to nothing: away from family at the other side of the world, her husband who doesn’t even materially care for her let alone will try to seek some treatment. By reducing her to nothing, in a way he also reduced himself to half a human being, because a human being who can’t have pity is not a human being, but is reduced to beast. Beasts, in most cases, do not care about weak ones in their groups because they are too busy surviving to help them. We as humans have evolved to a state where we can afford to care for a weak one, whether unemployed, ill or handicapped. When Rochester realises what he was during the month after Jane’s leaving, he decides to finally do something for Bertha as Thornfield burns down. Although he can’t help her as such any more because 15 years have gone over it already, he doesn’t leave her on the roof, hoping she dies in the fire (which he could do after all).
    Bertha is indeed characterised as violently insane and Charlotte was criticised for it! She writes in a letter to W.S. Williams on the 4th of January 1848: ‘It is true that profound pity ought to be the only sentiment elicited by the view of such degradation, and equally true is it that I have not sufficiently dwelt on that feeling: I have erred in making horror too predominant. Mrs. Rochester, indeed, lived a sinful life before she was insane, but sin is itself a species of insanity—the truly good behold and compassionate it as such.’ So, according to Charlotte herself, Rochester should have been compassionate and should have had pity… Not only that, but his sinful life she saw also as a type of insanity. Of course… Jane even said ‘I pity you, I honestly pity you’. That is what the people at the Retreat of York were doing, and that world was far from confining someone for 15 years (!) in the same place, with no natural light and little physical care… Whatever you may say about mixing the vies of the author with the views of his/her characters, there seems to be a definite parallel between Jane and Charlotte here. Jane calls Bertha ‘an unfortunate lady’ and pities Rochester. When Charlotte then writes that ‘the truly good behold and compassionate it as such’, where does the horror she made predominant (in her own words) refer to?

    Of course the Quaker-approach was a little too modern and humane for the time, but we need to acknowledge that 1792 (actually 1796) was about 50 years prior to Jane Eyre. In those 50 years public opinion had changed from the lunatic punished by God to the unfortunate mentally ill person. It has been argued that Rochester is old-fashioned in his view and consequently subjects Bertha to the old method of restraint and locking up. During the 1830s-1860s there was an optimism in the management of lunatics in even county-asylums. There were commissions who were to visit asylums in order to modify the laws that had already been in place since 1774, and were updated in 1828. The commissioners were to report on things concerning: ‘whether there has been adopted either in whole or in part, any system of non-coercion, and if so the particulars of such system, and by what means practised, and whether by medical treatment or otherwise, and what has been the result thereof’, ‘the classification or non-classification of patients, the number of attendants in each class, and, so far as practicable, the proportionate number of attendants before and since the adoption of non-coercion, if such system shall have been adopted’, the occupations and amusements of the patients ... and whether the same be in-door or out-door ... and the effect ... indoor and out-door respectively, on the condition, as well mental as bodily of the patients’, ‘the condition, as well mental as bodily, of the pauper patients (if any), when first received ... and whether the condition has been such as to prevent or impeded the ultimate recovery, either mental or bodily, of such patients, and also as to the dietary of the pauper patients’. All asylums were also supposed to have religious guidance in an attempt to bring the lunatics on the right path again. Not only the presence of a commission in that respect holds proof of Bedlam not being the standard for lunatic care, but also Parry-Jones states about Mary Lamb (a well-known 18th century case in this field): ‘The house in Islington, London, at which ... Mary was confined in 1796, after she had murdered her mother, contained accommodation at about £50 per annum, which was less expensive than that occupied by Mary, who had a room and a servant to herself’ and a little further ‘Charles Lamb's description of the care and affection ... Mary received at an Islington madhouse, also supports the view that humane treatment was practised in some eighteenth-century madhouses.’ The £50 per annum taken in the year 1796, converted to 1840 (if we were to apply that to Rochester’s and Jane Eyre’s period of time) makes £55 (indexed). Bertha could have had (even in the 18th century!) affection, care, a room for herself and a servant to herself, for a quarter of the money Rochester was prepared to pay Grace Poole. To add to this, the newspaper The Lancet reported in 1845 (two years prior to the publication of Jane Eyre) that there was no-one physically restrained in Bedlam hospital. There are records from ex-inmates of Bedlam that show that there was dramatic change in managing patients. Where in 1804 it was normal to be chained, in 1817 this was far less the case. And although it is mentioned that there were people on the ground flour sleeping on straw, this was not normal in the rest of the hospital and was only for people who couldn’t keep themselves clean. It was no punishment, although the keepers were criticised by some inmates for punishing them that way. (Metcalf). It is clear to me that Bedlam was not the standard in lunatic care, however people seem to think it was; not least because it was a state institution, with paupers into the bargain. State institutions did not have the same meaning as they have now. Bedlam Hospital was merely controlled by the City of London, but as there were no laws to protect the mad or poor, there were no rules they had to abide by, let alone be the example to the others. More the opposite, I’d say. I would call it, controlled by the City of London, in a privatised way. Bedlam was heavily criticised on its first visit by the commission and improved a little, but there are far better examples to look at. Even in the year 1700, David Irish in Guildford advertised ‘good fires, meat, and drink, with good attendance, and all necessaries far beyond what is allowed at Bedlam’. This about 100 years prior to the period Bertha would have been confined! Then already Bedlam was criticised. If Mary Lamb dreaded having to go to Bedlam Hopsital, what does that tell you? That there was no better? Apparently yes, because she was confined in a pretty good place, as it seems to me. From Bethlem Hospital’s own website: ‘Restraint of patients had been used sparingly at Bethlem in the 1840s and was abandoned in the 1850s. There was more emphasis on the surroundings and opportunities for work and leisure as a means of facilitating recovery. The women, where possible, helped around the house making beds, washing up, cleaning, sewing and working in the laundry,’ and ‘those who had not recovered at the end of a twelve-month period were generally discharged.’ Admittedly, it seems that that is so, but after that on their website they continue: ‘from the 1730s, however’. That suggests (and is probably the case) that this was the case before the 1730s and consequently doesn’t at all apply to the time Charlotte wrote her book. The cases and practices you quote are relative to the 18th century and not at all to the modernisation of the 19th century where compassion was everything. If Rochester allowed Grace Poole not to care for her at all, not to even try, if he confined her in a windowless room (who wouldn’t go mad?), if he himself restrained her, then he at least had a mere 18th century pauper view and was not at all caring and compassionate, like Mary Lamb’s brother was to his sister. We also need to mention that in 1815 Bethlem Hospital moved for a second time and that the quotes you make are taken in a time where the hospital was overcrowded and part of it inhabitable. Outdated, so to say. So, again, Rochester at least subjects Bertha to an older view and not at all a modern compassionate one. If Charlotte herself was criticised for the portrayal of Bertha as raving and violently insane, and admits to horror being its cause, then there can be no doubt as to the justification of Rochester’s way of dealing with it, given the circumstantial evidence. If there is any horror that needed to be predominant in that part of the novel, given the context of Bertha’s appearance, I thoroughly believe that it should be sought in Rochester’s management of his wife rather than in Bertha’s violent conduct. Only the description Jane gives of Bertha’s room, Grace’s alcoholism prior to that scene (given that keepers were more criticised than physicians), Grace’s assertion ‘ah, sir, she sees you!’ (as if there is danger involved when Bertha sees Rochester) and the shock of Rochester’s lying, are clear indications that Rochester is severely criticised and that the scene is not merely a display of ‘[the] unfortunate lady’. If Charlotte found pity and compassion only appropriate, why did she write that in her book? At least not to give a realistic account of a mad person. This is a speculation Jean Rhys made as well, but I didn’t read that book, and there is on this forum what I only think in principle about it. What I do know for certain is that Bethlem was a bad example rather than a standard and that Charlotte knew about lunatics and their ways. She knew that pity was rather in place, so I can’t see what Charlotte tried to do when she made Bertha violent in a windowless room. Probably the same as Shakespeare who made King Lear lament his lot for ever and ever, but started his play with pledges of love in exchange for a dowry…

    The demonic nature of Rochester can be argued on the basis of a number of things and consequently that judgment is not a subjective one, far less a theological one, but one embedded in literary allusions and imagery. How does one account for his boudoir of ‘ice and snow’, for his black horse, for his Manfredian tendencies (his insistence that Jane is a fairy and being equal (or even superior to her)? If Rochester has tendencies of a Byronic hero (and I say tendencies, because he has not all qualities although most readers consider him a Byronic hero) then he is in a certain sense demonic. If Rochester does not transform from wretched human being into amiable person, the iconic man he becomes doesn’t come to his right heights and he would never have ended up in the big list of great characters had he not transformed. Rochester becomes lovable in a strange way, but it doesn’t imply that he is lovable from the start. All literary allusions point that way, but he puts up a different façade, as King Lear.

    The word ‘noble’ is not from my usage alone. If you look on the website, you find others that have used it before me, but if you want a discussion on it, no problem.

    Indeed, what you quote is what it implies: people of high birth should be generous, do good, and so hold up their honour as their position requires. Let’s call it ‘honourable’ behaviour.

    The example you state of the Battle of Agincourt is a good one as to what the word ‘noble’ (both in French and English) can mean, but should not do. The image you have of the battle seems to be quite Shakespearian, but there is a truth that Shakespeare also knew, but left out of the play. When Henry V got barred from Calais he could not have known to be so lucky, but the weather also contributed a lot to that battle. It rained namely a whole night! On a freshly ploughed field, that is bad news for heavily armed men… On the morning the battle would begin, the French conétable goes to inspect the battlefield and senses that the ground is soaked so much that his horse can barely move because it sinks into the mud knee-deep. Vainly he tries to reason with the French nobility to postpone the battle. Partly because they didn’t want to be seen as cowards by each other (with a history of rivalry and the assassination of the Duke of Orléans and a civil war), but also because of the English ‘canaille à pied nu’ (English ‘Rabble with bare feet’) they didn’t want to be considered as scared of. Of course, any reason went out the window and the French went on with the battle taking their normal positions: foot-soldiers and behind them the cavalry and somewhere in between ‘because they were not needed’, the archers and some crossbowmen. Henry marched towards them in a half-circle with the flanks slightly more advanced than the centre and, as the French army was 5 (?) times as big, they were piled up in this half-circle 20 rows thick because of the lack of space. To add to the problems was the fact that crossbows have a shorter range than longbows, so the crossbows didn’t really serve a very great deal because they couldn’t reach the English at first. When the cavalry charged, let through by the infantry and the crossbowmen, they fell off their horses because they couldn’t walk, because the horses got shot by the arrows or because they stumbled over the others. By the time the infantry could charge, most of the knights were lying on their backs, in the mud, unable to get up because of the weighty armour, as ‘silver beetles’. The infantry had to climb piles of horses, bodies etc. to get to the battle. They pushed and pushed and because of that the situation became worse and more people died. In the meantime Henry V had seen that some French were looting the baggage train that was only lightly guarded because of his lack of men and he had to send soldiers to defend it, however his crown in the end was reported missing. As they were now occupied on two fronts, the English started to loose and they were pushed towards their own row of stakes they constructed in order to defend themselves against the cavalry (if there was any left). According to chivalry, they had taken the ‘silver beetles’ (read the French nobility, almost entirely) prisoner, and hadn’t killed them, on the contrary guarded them because they represented ransom. But… Henry V had now a decision to make: either he kept the prisoners guarded and waited until their compatriots came to free them and they could rearm, or… he took the guard away so they could fight (because they were just the men he needed). Yet, he could not let the prisoners run… He did something that went against chivalry altogether: he ordered the prisoners to be killed. The English nobles were against it, but failing them, he asked his archers to do so. As they were criminals, and only escaped the gallows because of enlisting in Henry’s army, they didn’t weary of killing people. When the prisoners were killed, the English won the battle, because of a judgment totally against history, yet a brilliant move. That is why all of the French nobility was killed, or let’s say slaughtered. (Durschmied, Wikipedia)

    It was not the longbows of the English that made their victory, it was the conceit of the French nobility amongst themselves and their failure to hear reason of someone who inspected the battlefield (because of their own pride). It was the English king who took a decision that was very un-noble that handed him the victory. If the French had fought on a good day on a better battlefield, they would have won, alone because of their sheer number. The French nobility had maybe at home the name to be generous and kind, but not so on the battlefield where they were proud and conceited. It was not at all fighting for a lost cause at that moment, far more was it a lost cause when the English in 1453 faced a French army with artillery rather than longbows. Had king Henry V preferred war-etiquette over victory, he had lost the battle, but instead he decided, willingly, to do something despicable; something that would forever brand the word ‘anglais’ in French history as something bad, disgusting or inferior. The battle of Agincourt/the Hundred Years War started a new era in warfare as it marked the transition from a feudal army with heavy cavalry and occasional foot-soldiers to a professional enlisted army with specialised artillery. That period also marked the transition from the nobility with political power onto themselves (which paralysed the whole economy) to a more centralised state-construction (as the English already had it at the time of Agincourt).

    Thus, the word ‘noble’ in its entirety gained another meaning from when it was first established. From a feudal position of power and self-decision, it became a more charitable and philosophical position When the chivalric code was first established around the 11th century (although across Europe the time differs a little) a knight was supposed to pursue the good and the truth, be generous, be courteous and serve. But this goes further than one might suppose. The underlying belief is a profound belief in Love, but Love as an ultimate goal and something that is owed by the knight to all. Pursuing the truth is not only looking for it, but presenting it to others. It is serving one’s neighbours as it is an act of love to present the good and the truth. A knight or nobleman has the duty to pursue truth in itself and to represent the reality as best he can. It is for a common goal. It is a service to his fellow man. Lying is misrepresenting the truth and comes out of a desire of personal gain. A knight has the duty to serve others and so does not lie. The kindness and generosity a knight should pursue are not only kindness and generosity in their material meaning, but also in their spiritual meaning as they spiritually mean to allow others to have their beliefs. Being as generous as that is an act of love as it displays one’s strength of character. Open-mindedness is absolute. Foremost, a nobleman should protect the weak. All weak. Because, again, it is an act of love, truth and good. It is giving the weak a stronger voice, because of the noble’s strength and power. A knight should use his strength and power to serve, as that is what the word ‘knight’ means. If he is not reverend and if he does not serve his fellow man, he denies him love and he reduces him to a possession. If we now consider Rochester’s appearance again… He lies to Jane and the rest of the world about having a wife, but when she challenges his views, he is not man enough to see the sense of hers. Thus he misrepresents the truth, and is not spiritually generous enough to consider Jane’s opinion. He even calls it unreasonable, or that is what he implies when he asks Jane to hear reason. The main problem for me is that he does not seem to want to do anything good for Bertha. If Rochester were striving for the truth and striving to protect the weak, he would not have been indifferent as to how Grace Poole took care of his wife, whether infirm or not. However, in the end he does see sense, and not least through a good example of knighthood. Jane, in her approach to life, is not only stoic but also chivalric in its original meaning: she is spiritually generous to Rochester, tries to understand his view and pities him, but prays for him to be helped. She has presented the reality to him, she has tried to ‘serve’ him as it were. Instead of staying there (which would be a comfortable solution) she puts her career and her name on the line to flee Thornfield without reference, but for her eternal soul and his.

    As portrayed in Darcy in Pride & Prejudice, generosity and kindness can go hand-in-hand with pride and conceit in practice. Darcy says that Elizabeth shocked him when she said ‘had you behaved in a more gentleman-like manner’ and that because of that he started to think how he was in public, which was a big difference with how he acted with his sister and servants. And it is also like that with Rochester: to Mrs Fairfax he may be a ‘liberal landlord’, but it does not at all imply that he has to be kind to everyone. You cannot possibly find what he did to Jane very kind…

    If this is the case, then Rochester caring for his servants, rescuing them from the fire, settling an annuity on their life does not at all imply that he was kind to Bertha. More on the contrary in fact: because of his conceit he clearly walks towards his downfall blindly (if you absolutely want to make a parallel with Agincourt in general). Besides, the place in the story you are quoting from is a place where he has already started to become another man; where he already started to grieve Jane; where he for the first time in my opinion shows any kindness towards Bertha; where he for the first time calls her by her name, and not in a context of estrangement (‘Bertha Mason is mad’) or with a derogatory name (‘fearful hag’). At the time Thornfield burns, he has already been thinking about himself and his conduct. As I stated above, he has realised, by then, what he did to Bertha: he hated her, because she was inferior. According to chivalry, he reduced her to a mere possession and used his power to control and not to serve; he used his power not to give her a voice, but to silence her; in short he indeed didn’t love her, but hated her. He didn’t strive for the good and the truth, he didn’t strive to represent the truth to the best of his ability when he lied to Jane about being a bachelor. He was maybe generous to Jane in the material sense, but not in the real sense of open-mindedness and respect, forcing her into a bigamous marriage she wasn’t even able to choose. Thus, even in its chivalric meaning, Rochester is far from noble. When he then, at the end of his monologue, says: ‘but Jane will give me her love. Yes, nobly, generously.’ He hopes for her chivalric tendencies to come to the surface, but even a true knight couldn’t comply with his wishes because they are not good, not of service to anyone. The only thing they are is selfish and self-centred literally: only of service to him. A knight needs to serve the common good and not the gain of one person only because it is bound to harm others. Jane, as the knight, does what she can to present the reality and the good before him: she tells him he has a wife living, she tells him that Bertha is unfortunate, she listens to him, comforts him and directs him to God for guidance and solace, but that is not what he wants. Thus, for her, there is nothing more to do than go to stop him wanting her.

    The reason Rochester wants Jane to hear is his reason only, not the reason of the common law, not the reason of the church, not the reason of Jane, not the reason of morality. Although we can understand why he sees things like that, we cannot say that his views are normal. Perhaps it is only the bad treatment of his wife that makes it so bad. If Bertha had not been locked up in secret, but in a nice place we could make excuses, but as stated above, Rochester comes across as a lamenting King Lear who has himself to blame for what happens to him; who doesn’t understand unconditional love, but requires proof; whose ‘love’ is thrown back in his face by people who he (naively) thought loved him. King Lear does not understand why his daughters deny him his 100 people strong court they have to support financially and thus curses them. Yet, his two daughters, Goneril and Regan, are the same ones that ‘proved’ their ‘love’ to their father the way he wanted it. The only one who refused, Cordelia, is the one who will eventually come to die because of her unconditional love for her father. As King Lear Rochester does not understand unconditional love and wants proof of it there and then. Not only that but he consequently cannot give it. Love, in the chivalric meaning is a love that both is an ultimate goal and something that induces entire devotion. King Lear expects material devotion from his daughters, but is prepared to exhaust it to the brink without any devotion from his side. When his devoted knight challenges him over his refusal of Cordelia’s dowry, he banishes him. Yet, that man was a true devoted servant, because he presented the truth and the good before Lear, who refused and dismissed it. When the nobleman gets dishonoured and banished he will impose himself in disguise so that his king will not come to any harm. That is true devotion for you: unconditional, serving, protecting and for the common good, regardless of what the past is/was or what the weak have contributed to their weak situation. Rochester asks for devotion from Jane with a pledge of fidelity, but is unable to supply her with entire devotion beyond the material. It is only when he is not able to supply her with anything material because of his physical state, that he can finally supply her with his heart. When Jane says that she loves him more than in his proud independence, she indeed intimates devotion from his side as a knight to his lady: blind devotion (literally), a devotion that is unconditional, that will protect, that is generous, that is just devotion for the sake of devotion. Without gain, without actual goal, without interest. In short chivalric Love: Good, Truth and Servitude. A Love with a capital L.
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

  2. #17
    who me?? optimisticnad's Avatar
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    Your enthusiasm is admirable. It's a great novel, I have friends who read very little and don't enjoy reading but this is their favourite book.
    We can never know what to want, because living only one life we can neither compare it with our previous lives, nor perfect it in our lives to come'
    Milan Kundera,The Unbearable Lightness of Being


    Parce que c'est toi, parce que c'est moi

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    I've read kiki's assessment, research and tried to read up myself on what I found on the internet regarding mental treatment in the 19th century in the UK.

    It seems to me that time establishment is important for that:

    Jane's story of her childhood (Lowood) is early 1830s, with the first Cholera outbreak in the UK. Her time in Lowood is approximately the same time Rochester travels abroad in Europe, already in possession of Thornfield and Bertha already confined secretly in her room. And I surmise he married Bertha around approximately 1821.

    So, when Rochester marries Bertha, George 3rd had just died a year or so. Prince of Wales had become Regent 9 years before George 3rd's death because George 3rd had become too insane. Before his death George 3rd remained 9 years in private confinement in Windsor.

    http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...sectioncode=26

    "During the 19th century, Bethlem caught up, somewhat belatedly, with a prestigious new type of treatment, "moral therapy". This was a psycho-social technique which held that the insane would recover best in cosy, domestic environments which reproduced as far as possible the security and support of the bourgeois home."

    http://www.answers.com/topic/asylums...torical-survey

    This article describes how after George 3rd and the 1815 report on Bethlem abuse (both would have been fresh on Rochester's young mind before he left to the West Indies) the call for Asylums and moral treatment gained influence. However it also mentions how private care, and for the rich this would have been home care, was favoured over placing a patient in asylums. (and article mentions Jane Eyre)

    So, Rochester leaves for the West Indies for an arranged marriage to make sure he has a living. The death of George 3rd fresh in mind as well as growing social interest in fighting abuse of mental patients such as in Bethlam.

    Rochester arrives in the West Indies, in his mind not being adverse to what most non-first sons must do... find a rich wife, especially if the father demands it. And he finds himself in good luck, he thinks. His prospected bride is a beautiful woman. He may not know her well yet, but the little he knows (even through lies... they even lied to him about her age, she was 26 already when he married her) and her beauty make him think he's in love with her. Her behaviour and the lies of her family make him think she returns the feeling. So, for a dependent 21 year old, he thought himself lucky: acquire fortune, comply to his father's wishes, and marry a woman he's infatuated with, mae the bride happy, and he has a lifetime ahead to get to know her. Every second son should be so lucky as him.

    NOT! As a young bloke, foolishly misled by his preference for beauty he commits a tragic flaw/error (hamartia): he's unaware of the lunacy running through Bertha's family and the onset of lunacy symptoms in Bertha, and binds himself to her for life.

    He learns Bertha's ways once he has to spend daily life with her: coarse and foul language, promiscuous, and raging fits. No, I don't think rich daughters of landowners in colonies in the Caribbean were raised that way at all. Many Creole were of Spanish or French descent, so was Bertha. Creole originally meant someone of pure French/Spanish descent, but born in one of the colonies, not mixed. CB would have used the term with that meaning probably.

    Anyway, all his foolish imaginary dreams turn into an unexpected nightmare. While he only just learns about the lunacy aspects within the family, he has no explanation for Bertha's abhorrent behaviour, other than that must be her character. His self avowed hate for Bertha stems from that nightmare experience. He never knew her before, his infatuation was solely based on lies and outside appearance, and all he learned that was of more consequence was horror. I can't blame him for hating her on a personal level, even though he was a fool to marry her while knowing so little of her. Only later is he sure that she's insane.

    His mentioning of "- her excesses had prematurely developed the germs of insanity -" (p 345, vol III, chapter 1) shows he believed her promiscuity and foulness to be her character first, the lunacy the result of it. We would suppose Bertha's earlier behaviour as starting lunacy symptoms, but Rochester's supposition [of Bertha's lunacy being the result of her behaviour] coincides with the public suppositions regarding lunacy: "Insanity is the scourge brought down on sinful men by the wrath of the Almighty" (George Man Burrows, opening words of Commentaries on the Causes, Forms, Symptoms, and Treatment, Moral and Medical, of Insanity 1828. Quoted Kraepelin 1918, pages 38- 39 (See 1811)

    While he tries to think of himself as clean, not the person who is responsible for her conduct, he experiences how Jamaican society associates him with her. "Still, society associated my name and person with hers;" (p 346, VIII, chapter I). After 4 years of this, he's starting to be so desperate that for a moment he contemplates suicide. " - let me break away, and go home to God!" 'I said this whilst I knelt down at, and unlocked a trunk which contained a brace of loaded pistols: I meant to shoot myself." (p 346, VIII, chapter I)

    In any regard, 4 years experience, has taught him that
    a) society would shun him for his lunatic wife's language and actions
    b) he'd rather be dead than have to listen to her horrific behaviour

    He returns to Thornfield with Bertha around 1826. George Comb's work on Phrenology had been published 2 years before that. And Rochester has studied it, or he would not have alluded to it so often. At his time of return though moral treatment debate was in full swing

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_t...t#Consequences

    "The moral treatment movement was initially opposed by many madhouse keepers and medics, the latter partly because it cast doubt on their own approach. By the mid-19th century, however, many medics had changed strategy."

    http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/MHHTim.htm

    "Therapeutic Optimism: The optimistic period in the history of asylums runs from about 1830 to around 1860. It was at its height in the 1840s. Asylums built under the 1808 and 1828 County Asylums Act tended to be left to the management of doctors. As the theories and techniques of managing lunatics in asylums developed, so did the belief that this asylum treatment itself was the correct, scientific way to cure lunacy.

    Signs of the therapeutic change can be seen in the changing legislation. The 1828 Madhouses Act, unlike the 1774 Act, was concerned about conditions in asylums. These included the moral conditions. Official visitors were required to inquire about the performance of divine service and its effects. In 1832, this inquiry was extended to include "what description of employment, amusement or recreation (if any) is provided". (see law)"


    Rochester returns with Bertha to the UK before the 1828 act and right before the optimism about curative moral treatment. However it can be argued that Rochester tried to have Bertha treated with moral treatment.

    http://www.answers.com/topic/asylums...torical-survey
    "The idea of moral management provided theoretical support for asylum-based treatment (see insanity: history). It advocated the abandonment of physical restraint and an appeal to the will of the patient. It aimed to restore the dignity of the patient and to enlist him as an ally in the treatment process. Two requirements of moral management were the early detection of insanity and separation of the patient from the circumstances precipitating his attack, usually his home."

    a) Bertha was not chained or physically restrained. She was only restrained momentarily when she aimed to harm someone, and that without striking or other violent means, which would be called "mild-restraint". (Jane makes an explicit point of it to mention how Rochester refuses to strike Bertha when she attacks him in her room, while Jane, Mason, Briggs and the others are present). Ellis system was one of mild-restraint for example. Debate between mild and total non-restraint only came up in the 1840's when in the story by then Bertha's already dead.

    http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/4.htm#MoralManagement
    "The Ellis system was not non-restraint, however, because instrumental restraints were used when needed. In the early 1840s asylum doctors divided into hostile camps of those who practised "mild restraint" and those who followed Lincoln and Hanwell in establishing non-restraint."

    b) She was confined in her own private room. And this was what the non-restraint or mild-restraint asylum's endeavoured themselves.
    c) she was supervized by a private caretaker and physician
    d) she was removed from her home (the West Indies, Jamaica)
    e) Rochester was almost never around himself

    Both the West Indies' home and Rochester could have been seen as possible triggers for Bertha, and so Rochester not being around most of the time might even have been advized by the physician.

    At this period, from the research I could do so far, private small group lodgings, single houses and home care was preferred by those who could afford it against asylums of large groups. Only those who housed more than 1 lunatic needed a license, especially if they required money for it. Private home care needed no license. Why? Because it was believed to be the best care, and moral treatment tried to mimic home care circumstances in asylums.

    So, imo, Rochester indeed tried to have Bertha treated with moral management, in his own home, while at the same time this moral home treatment gave him the opportunity to enjoy society and its refinements once more without being shunned.

    On a last note, I use Rochester's own arguments of how he could have kept Bertha at Ferndean where her health would have detoriated with the dampness of that house. He chose not to hasten Bertha's death.

    Rochester was a foolish young man. He hated what he and society back then would have regarded as Bertha's character (rather than first symptoms of her detoriating mind), and within the circumstances it seems a natural feeling to what he lived through for 4 years. He did imo try to do what he supposed to be most humane, and follow medical advice and back-then modern management ideas regarding lunacy in what he knew to be preferred - home care. And he used it as opportunity to enjoy society once more. His concealment of Bertha's existence was a cowardly act, but not necessarily a cruel act. He was wrong to deceive Jane and tempt her into her own hamartia (marrying Rochester without knowing he had a wife still living), but it does not make him a cruel man to Bertha either.
    Last edited by sweetsunray; 05-28-2009 at 07:09 PM.

  4. #19
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    I agree that in the 1820s (the times that Rochester first got saddled with Bertha), there was not a lot of possibility in asylums. But better treatment was available in private or single madhouses. Although, Charlotte had one in York that by the 1810s even already had established moral treatment.

    About George III:

    He was taken away for a first time from Windsor to Kew for a more therapeutic environment. This was already in 1788. Dr John Willis (a reverend), was the doctor who took charge of George’s treatment. He was the rector of an asylum in Bloomsbury, Lincolnshire and was leading figure in the world of the rich for treatment of that kind of disorder. In 1796, his asylum was written about thus:

    ‘As the unprepared traveller approached the town, he was astonished to find almost all the surrounding ploughmen, gardeners, threshers, thatchers and other labourers attired in black coats, white waistcoats, black silk breaches and stockings, and the head of each 'bien poudre, frise, et arrange'. These were the doctor's patients, and dress, neatness of person, and exercise being the principle features of his admirable system, health and cheerfulness conjoined to aid recovery of every person attached to that most valuable asylum.’ (occupational therapy as a treatment was a very much used practice, even in Bethlem a little later.)

    The king was again treated by the same people (Willis and his brother) in 1801. From 1810, Dr Robert Willis (after the death of his father) took charge of the king entirely in Windsor castle.

    Furthermore, there was a large industry involving private care for rich lunatics or idiots. Partly because of secrecy. This does not mean, however, that conditions were the same there as in asylums! Guildford advertised good beds, fires, good diet ‘far beyond what is allowed at Bedlam’ in 1700 already! The reputation of Bedlam as a bad place goes back a long way and should not be taken as a standard. Andrew Roberts even states that private houses ‘might provide more humane custody at a lower price.’ It remains to be seen if the king would be confined in the half-dark for 24 hours a day, and not cared for physically, like Bertha in Windsor Castle...

    Johann Kasper Spurzheim was the one who combined phrenology with lunacy, stating that the environment should be adapted to the propensities of a person. This provided a scientific base for moral management, which would indeed come into use really in the 1830s.

    The Ellis-system indeed used confinement, but not continuously. Conolly used confinement as well, as did the Ellises, but in order to calm patients down (de-exciting the brain) (Haw). But, he did not approve of too much of that, and ordered the meticulous recording of any use of the padded rooms. So seclusion was used as a calming method when nothing else (medication) was available to calm the patient down, but it was certainly not used as a restraining method, unlike Rochester permanently makes use of it. Conolly noted that abolishing restraint had a calming effect and that ‘the wards [were] less noisy, frantic behaviour and manic paroxysms [were] less frequent, patients [were] more cheerful and cleaner.’ (Conolly, reprinted 1973)

    Indeed, Bertha was supervised by a private caretaker. We also have to mention that he paid his caretaker about the tenfold of Conolly’s caretakers who received £25 per annum instead of £200 for Grace (which is a real fortune taking into consideration that Jane’s wages are an equivalent of 2000 dollars a month, which then was 30 pounds!). It was acknowledged around 1815 that it was actually the caretakers in Bethlem Hospital that were the real villains… Anyway, Conolly also did not trust them in the beginning and ordered them to report to medical staff at all times if they deemed seclusion necessary. This as indication that specialists were rather valued than paid, unskilled staff (which Grace Poole would belong to).

    We also have to acknowledge the perception of the readers at the time Jane Eyre was published. They would have been aware thoroughly of this moral management-practice. They cannot have approved of a man who confined his wife to one room, in permanent dusk (try to burn one candle in a room at night, you’ll see what I mean) as there was no window in Bertha’s room, bad air (no ventilation) and for 24 hours a day. This is a shrill contrast with the more wholesome treatment of King George III at Kew, or the patients of Willis who worked on the fields, or the patients of Conolly who were only restrained in order to calm them and for the rest were allowed to be occupied in the garden, with sewing or whatever.

    Moral management was about removing the strain on the brain by which the excitement which it had as an effect, would go away. A wholesome environment was therefore indispensible. How is a person supposed to get out of madness if confined without useful occupation (which was also deemed wholesome then, hence the work in the fields, a practice that was also the case in York and with the Ellises), in the dark and for ten years all day (literally!)?

    The combination of Rochester’s character under the surface and Brontë’s own opinion about pity for lunatics are an indication that nor readers nor the author approved of Bertha’s situation. In the 1820s it might have been difficult, though not impossible, to find her decent confinement or a decent place, but had Brontë cared about Rochester’s character as a good man and wanted to portray him like that, she would have had him confine Bertha in an asylum (as circumstances changed) or a private madhouse, like that of the Willises, which offered much better conditions than Thornfield from the start. Or he could have disapproved after seeing his wife abused by Grace. The point is that Rochester just did not care.

    Rochester is a very ironic character and puts forward a façade that fools everyone, like Lear. Although one should not mistake his lament for real remorse. It is striking how Jane still insists on his conduct being wrong and that he insists on it being right. It is clear she feels pity, he does not. That is why Brontë got criticism for the portrayal of Bertha, which was the last thing to be revealed about Rochester (his view on women/wives and marriage) and which was not relative to her own image of it as she herself intimates in a letter.

    Bibliography:

    Camilla Haw, John Conolly and the treatment of mental illness in early Victorian England, 1989 for the Psychiatric Bulletin

    Andrew Roberts, Mental Health History Timeline
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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    Jane insisted Rochester was wrong on trying to marry her or make her a mistress while he had a wife living, but makes no moral judgement on how he keeps his wife. On the contrary, she made a point of insisting how he refrained from defending himself against Bertha's violent attack with violent means.

    For my part, if there was any irony meant then it was badly executed, both in having Jane marry him, and her CB's own words on Rochester's character.

    The hint on Rochester's role imo lies in the mentioning of the Gytrash before her first meeting of Rochester. The Gytrash was believed to be a large dog or horse traveling the roads, and dangerous because they would attempt to lead the unknowing traveler to the wrong path. That, is in a nutshell what Rochester attempts, trying to trick Jane onto a morally wrong path without her even knowing it... hamartia.

    Grace's failings do not seem to be that she's abusive of Bertha, but isn't always as watchful as she ought to be. We never learn how Bertha spends her time in her confinement, and what her relationship is with Grace. Sowing is mentioned, as being done by Grace, but Bertha may have been sowing too. We just don't know.

    I've read how Bertha attempting to kill Rochester might be indication of his cruelty to her. I'd rather doubt it. Mental patients can act very violently towards their primary caretaker without provocation. I had a cousin who was schizophrenic and who hit and beat my aunt, her mother. While my aunt was not really a cuddly type, hardy knows how to hold a baby, she was not uncaring, nor abusive: she knows even less how to hit a child.

    The physician doesn't seem to have any problems with Bertha's treatment. But it's important to know that Rochester did hire a physician for Bertha, and would have followed his advice.

    As for the moral management, while several advocated it, there was also strong opposition to it, especially in the 1830s. That is when the debate about it starts to rage. I don't see why Rochester should have surrendered Bertha to a single house, when he had a physician and a 24hr caretaker for her at his own home. Also, the non-restraint confinement was the practice in asylums for the incurable. Moral management insisted on early detection in order to be a cure (and it wasn't a cure really). Bertha was beyond early detection, and an incurable. Community life, employment and taking walks was advocated for possible curable lunatics. We "now" know that even curing lunatics in this way was bollocks. Medicine is needed for it. Only those who would have been cured in this way would have been people who were in a crisis because of circumstances, not pathalogical mental disease, such as with Bertha.

    Also, CB wrote the novel towards the end of the 40s, when it already became clear that moral management did not succeed much in what it professed it could do: cure the lunatics.
    Last edited by sweetsunray; 05-29-2009 at 02:00 PM.

  6. #21
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    Jane clearly states that she will also be locked up, like Bertha, if she turned mad. She clearly expresses disapproval about how Rochester talks about his wife. She finds her 'an unfortunate lady' while he goes on playing the victim and does not at all express pity. The most unsettling thing is that he makes a difference between Jane and Bertha. Not because the one is sane and the other insane, no, because Jane he 'loves' and Bertha he hates. That is profoundly unsettling, because as his wife he has total power over her. As his mistress, if she wants him to still care for her, she has to be very careful. Essentially, the statement that he hates Bertha, shows how he goes about treating people he hates: with no decorum whatsoever. The contrast is great with how he treats Jane he loves… With Rochester it is all or nothing.

    There was definitely irony involved. The character he displays is totally different from the characters that are alluded to in his words. Certainly Bluebeard is very unsettling. The irony was not badly executed, because Rochester does not marry and become happy before the end, when he has gone through his change. As such, the irony is only present until chapter XXVI. When he has repented there are no unsettling references, only better ones when Jane returns. (Sleeping Beauty and Vulcan as a main)

    I am not saying either Grace or Rochester were explicitly abusive. They were implicitly abusive. Granted, Bertha could have done sewing, although that is speculation. But in the dusk? I doubt whether I could sow in the dusk… Of course caretakers, no matter how good they are, are sometimes attacked, but we need to acknowledge that mad patients get easily excited, so aggravating them with bad conditions is certainly not done.

    When Rochester talks about the physician, Mr Poole presumably, from the Grimsby Retreat, we have only his word for it. The only physician that was ever seen in that book was Mr Carter who was another one. So, as the sewing, the physician is only a matter of appearance… Was he ever called? Does he even exist? We cannot be sure of that.

    There was a debate going on about moral management, yes. But, we should not forget that by the time Jane Eyre was published only good things were being said about this. Early discovery was deemed indeed beneficial, but more advanced patients were not refused. On the contrary, everything was done to take them up, because they felt it their duty to do so. By the 1860s, of course specialists saw that moral management did not really help, but they still kept on managing asylums that way, because it was good for the patients. It was no longer seen as a cure, though. That was only in the 1860s, not in the 1840s. Then they were all for it. An article was even published in Blackwood’s Magazine in terms that at least show that ‘the old days are past.’
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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    As a Byronic Hero archetype, without the handsome appearance (of course), Rochester is educated, worldly, and believes in his own moral code. There is a repartee about this early-on with Jane. He says, "Nature intended me to be a good man, Miss Eyre, yet you see that I am not....When fate wronged me, I did not have the wisdom to be cool. I turned desperate. . ." Ch14. He has struggled with his past, dealt with his errors and has reached a point where he believes he is intitled to grasp some happiness in this life. Whether he was justified is subjective; however, it is clear that he believes he has the right to pursue her. The fact that she was tiny, penniless, and plain with not a friend or relation in the world to claim--only added to his concept that perhaps she was sent there to him. I rather like Rochester, for all his faults. I suppose it is because he genuinely loved Jane. His reasoning--or rather, his explanation for his behavior--is flawed. He clearly states early on, when he is playing the gypsy, that he knows Jane is resolute and chaste. Ch19: ""I see no enemy to happiness except in the forehead. That brow says, I can live alone if self-respect requires me to. I will not sell my soul to buy happiness..." He knew he could not be honest with her; he knew she would never agree to live with him if he was already married. Therefore, his arguement after the thwarted wedding does not hold up. Rochester's desperation in the novel is poignant and I really could not help feeling empathy for his plight. However, he tried to trick Jane into a false wedding, which is also pretty reprehensible. This is why I have always wondered how others interpet Rochester's character. Brontë, herself, was involved in an unrequited love with a professor in Brussells. She fell into a rather intense affection for him, mentioned it in letters, but he rejected her every mention of the attachment. As a school master of an all girls' school, he would be outraged at any hint of inpropriety. Actually, the novel went at a rapid speed from the beginning until Jane leaves Thornfield, a shift easily identified in the novel.

  8. #23
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    Don't get me wrong, I love Rochester absolutely. He is the most intricate character ever and the most interesting one. But I really couldn't feel any pity when he took his plea.

    There is a line, and going over it is too far. Fine, he was in love with Jane, but he knows she will not consent to be his mistress, though she would probably have stayed had he proposed and had they waited for Bertha to die. It is doubtful whether he would have been able to keep himself, but she could have certainly. She at least considers that posiblity when she returns.

    But he chooses the route of deceit and decides to trick her into a marriage which she does not know is not valid. She would have given her honour to him, not knowing that she didn't give it in wedlock. And what would have happened if he went to prison for bigamy (I don't know if any goods were confistcated in that case)? Or even worse, he gets tired of her? She ends up destitute and a fallen woman. Fine, he says he loves her, but I am really torn between believing him and not believing him. Whoever can lie so convincingly as to make someone believe that he is single, have the audacity to propose knowing that one cannot offer a genuine marriage (in such an era to such a destitute girl) and that one's wife is even in the same house (as if your new one will never know), I have trouble to believe in other cases.

    I have the mpression he has changed severely after the fire and what folowed and he also admits to his mistakes. Indicated by the moon-motif, he has not dealt with his errors, but has only hidden them and as such, is only rid of them when she returns to 'Sleeping Beauty' as it were. He is then a lot more humble, a lot more thankful that she has returned and wants to love him, a lot more pleading and genuine, a lot more 'I don't knowif she is going to say yes' instead of 'she must say yes, why would she not'. I have the impression that the first time, he was just trying to keep her. He was madly in love like he was with Bertha, but I don't think it would have been bliss for Jane. Not when you take into account his narcistic streak.
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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    Thank you for your reply!

    I have to admit that I have studied the British Victorian period, culture, gentry, etc. a great deal which makes it somewhat easier for me to believe that the wealthy or privileged class certainly felt –like the Buchanans in The Great Gatsby by F. Scott Fitzgerald, 1925—that they were in some ways above the regular rules and social values. Plus, the idea of arranged marriages was not as uncommon as it is today. His basis for “loving” Bertha, I think, was more in the physical aspects. She was obviously beautiful and exotic. How could anyone really be in love with someone they just met and barely know—not to mention from a totally different culture. Rochester didn’t like the tropical climate of Jamaica. And he was young. Life’s experiences have an interesting affect on an individual.

    Yes, he deceived her convincingly. And he was a scoundrel for doing so! But I saw this man as a desperate man, consorting with a number of mistresses—in an attempt to create an intimate relationship that mirrored marriage—unsuccessfully. All were doomed to fail before they began; however, the fact that Rochester doesn’t know this has always been a mystery to me.

    I rather think he did know that he could not replicate a truly loving relationship in that fashion. But it has always bothered me that he keeps trying. He tries again with Jane, but he offers her marriage. The real puzzle is that he appears to know himself so well, as quoted in his early repartee with Jane; he knows Jane from the classic orphan schooled at a religious boarding school. I have even considered that Jane’s dislike of Brocklehurst might have led Rochester to believe that she was rejecting more than the pious vicar himself. Believing that she had no one and no one would inquire as to his situation—which is ironic when someone did know and did inquire—that he would marry her and keep everything from her.

    I see Rochester as a man who felt trapped, cheated, tricked –whether it was justified or not---and saw Jane as his last hope in this world to grasp a small bit of happiness. He might have even told himself that the incident in the causeway was “meant to be” and that Jane was sent there to him. It was surely desperate on his part, which explains why he is so absolutely shaken when Mason shows up. Physically shaken.

    And when he tells her after the thwarted wedding that he should have been honest from the onset—I knew immediately he was lying. I think he lies because once again, he is desperate. He knows Jane will not stay even though he makes his passionate plea and rationalizing argument. He knew before he speaks; he knew when he was the gypsy. It is possibly like seeing the last threads of happiness slipping through his fingers and he desperately tries to save them. Perhaps, like trying to hold water in your hand. Futile, however, we inevitably try!

    But he did love her desperately. When she is gone, he wears the pearl necklace around his own neck under his cravat. The servants say he hardly left the property. That was where Jane was; that was where his memories were; he could not leave Thornfield. Think about the name of the estate: Thornfield. He stays in a field of thorns.

    Repentance was slow in coming because I believe his passion for Jane overwhelmed all other emotions including common sense. [Having once been in love myself—the particular kind of love that leads you to believe you are soul mates, thinking identical thoughts & sharing similar ideas, etc. without articulating them—I know this sort of passion tends to be overwhelming especially in the early days of romantic love.] As time passes, Rochester begins to view his actions in retrospect and is able to see himself in a far different light. He does repent and, at the window, he asks God to take him. That is the night Jane hears his words.

    The true Byronic hero character does believe in the moral values but because of some secret tragedy in his past, believes he has the right to adhere to a different set of rules. He tells Jane [Ch 14] “It [repentance] is not its cure. To reform may be its cure. I could reform—I still have the strength for that—but what is the use of thinking about that, cursed as I am? Besides, because happiness is forever denied me, I have a right to get pleasure out of life. And I will get it, whatever it costs.” And he tells her in that same scene: “I think that when such a guest asks to enter my heart, I must let it in.” I might argue that it is in this scene when the idea occurs to him.

    There is a comment Rochester makes, when she returns to him, in a conciliatory manner that indicates he had thought about what he tried to do was regretted his actions. I cannot seem to locate that exact scene.

    What he did was unconscionable, to be sure. However, a desperate person—man or woman—may resort to desperate measures even if they are reprehensible. And when he asked Jane to forgive him, she does immediately—although not aloud. Something about this man, in spite of his actions, endears him to me.

  10. #25
    Something's Gone hoope's Avatar
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    hi Kiki ,
    i really enjoyed reading this .. this is such a remarkable work ..
    I frankly love the character of Mr. Rochester.. that strange mixture of everything and his noble love for Jane..

    Well , great efforts !
    "He is asleep. Though his mettle was sorely tried,
    He lived, and when he lost his angel, died.
    It happened calmly, on its own,
    The way the night comes when day is done."



  11. #26
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    @Hoope: Thanks for the comments. For some time I really got obsessed by this book (and character ). But I am glad I make sense .

    @Chiz:

    I agree with what you say, but I don't think Rochester's despair should be exaggerated. He is endearing (I keep saying it), but at the same time also a little hard-headed.

    Maybe that does not so much bring on vengeful feelings in a reader, but rather profound sadness. Sadnes at the state of him as a person. There is something about him that is so sad that he is kind of lost and cannot be helped because he does not want to listen to the one who can help him (Jane). I believe the whole novel carries a 'grand plan' that sends Jane to Thornfield for him to be helped (as she has often been called a Christ-figure), but a Christ also needs to be sacrificed to save the world. In that, Jane saves Rochester not through her love, but through her 'death' when she leaves.

    How he dealt with his past and his wife was really not productive. Fine, this bride had been courted for him and actually the marriage was pretty much done. They only needed a 'yes' from him (and her). It is understandable that it was hard for him to say 'no', but I don't believe that he wasn't able to. You are right that arranged marriages were common (certainly when there was one main object: money), but the prospective daughter-in-law needed to be honorable. In that, I don't think it is implied that Rochester's father knew that Bertha was in fact mad or at least weakly gifted. If he had known about that (and her escapades afterwards), he would never have married his son to her as her honour and mental state also had their reflection on the honour of the family but furthermore her mental state would have demonised Rochester's children (that is at least what they thought back then and what Rochester intimates himself about it). That is also what is indicated when the reader is told that Rochester's father didn't publicise the marriage in the newspaper because of the letters of Rochester himself about his wife. Not only her promiscuous nature was an issue or disobedience (as has often been a subject in feminist research), but also merely the fact that she cannot have any decent conversation which is quickly going to show if she is brought into a situation like Ingram, as Rochester's wife and host of his parties (if she is at all able to pull something like that off). Not to mention Ihe servants who talk... I think blaming his father and brother for the marriage entirely and accusing them of trickery is not really realistic as it was also in their own interest that he wasn't married to Bertha. They would never have agreed with Mason if they had known, yet probably Mason wanted to get rid of his daughter and saw his chance with this overseas gentleman who was only interested in money and did not know about his (Mason's) wife and yougest child who was 'an idiot'. In my mind, Rochester only blames his father and brother for that marriage in order not to have to blame himself; narcistically trying to get out of his own respnsibility in all of it. He could have looked better and informed his father about Bertha's mental state, yet he did not, fell passionately in love with her beauty without even so much as talking to her and then is surprised that he has made the wrong choice.

    He also does not truly understand how despicable his trickery was. He blames his concealed marriage for it. It can be considered as an act of desperation, yes, and I agree, but at the same time, one cannot demand to be happy. In pursuing happiness, he gets it wrong. Epictetus's principles of happines (which Brontë refers to indirectly) were to not to want to control what is incontrollable. Rochester would like to turn back the clock 15 years and say 'I am single', but in constructing that lie for himself, he only becomes unhappy, because continuously he is reminded of the fact that it is not like that. One cannot have a wife if one is already married no matter where or how the other one is, bottom line. In absolutely wanting to live a lie, he also limits himself as to the women he can consult to become his (second) wife. There is no young lady of honour who will want to marry bigamously. So he descends to the material side of things (that is what mistresses are for), but then of course grows unhappy. Those women are namely not really 'loving', but only see their gain. As soon as something else comes up, they disappear. He indeed tries to control what is incontrollable: happiness. One does not find it, it comes upon one (possibly eve as a reward for good living if the grand plan in the novel is taken into account). That is something totally different. One needs to let it come. It is not summoned. That is what he does with Jane in the first place. In the second place, though, he let it. When it comes it comes, when it doesn't it doesn't. It is all really fine for him: there is nothing else to live for.

    I do think that at the end he is much happier than he ever was during that first year because he has come to appreciate happiness because of unhappiness. He thought he was unhappy and alone when he met Jane, but that was nothing compared to his loneliness when she had left. There was something that penetrated him (as the India Rubber Ball) during that year, but he didn't realise it. Only when Jane had left, he realised the emptiness in his heart. Before, he took it for granted. After, he realised what it was that he missed. And that made him humble, because he realised that he could not demand that happiness; he could not summon it. It had come, it had gone and now it had to come back, but he could not controll it. And that is I think what defines him in the end: he will be happy with his situation, his blindness because that is it. He can cry over his blindness, over not being able to anything alone, but does it serve? No, the situation will stay the same, and he should have realised that 15 years earlier. Life would have been much easier.

    In that, Jane as 'the apple of [his] eye' could refer to knowledge and wisdom as implied in Byron's Cain: of an infinite nature. Indeed, it is wisdom that he gained through eating from the forbidden fruit, but also not fathoming it, because it is infinite. Not understanding, but knowing it anyway in a limited way. The only thing he knows is that now, everything is bliss and before it wasn't. His age of innocence and not knowing is gone.
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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    This will be short as I am about to leave work for the weekend!
    Gosh, you take my breath away!
    I guess I meant to argue somewhat on Rochester's behalf; however, I still could never rationalize his behavior to Jane. How do you do that to someone you claim to love? Jane would have been devastated by finding out she was nothing more than a mistress. I used to ask my students, how can he love her so much and do this horrible thing--or try to?
    He is a paradox, to be sure. I have to say.. my assessments of Rochester may possibly be colored by the fact that I have read Wide Sargasso Sea a few times and taught it once following Jane Eyre. If I have stretched at all, I apologize.

    In any case, I wish to further our discussion on Rochester, who is without doubt a very intriguing character. A scoundrel? Yes. Passionate? Yes. Narcissistic? That, too. However, he is such a more interesting character than Rivers, who by the way, also believed Jane was sent to him.

    I will try to add more later. [I need to lock up and leave.] Again, thank you for the interaction on this topic. JE is my favorite novel and I did get my degree in 19th Century British Victorian literature... but I love to read and when I can't, I use audio books for my vehicle.

  13. #28
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    I used to wonder as well about that, until I started to look up all allusions to his character. The irony in it is amazing. While he is making the most charming impression, the references become ever more shocking and scary. It is amazing how it was done.

    It starts with sinister Bluebeard of Perrault's fairy tale, continues with various Shakespeare references, goes on with Milton and finally ends with Lear. Not to mention half the bible.

    That gypsy scene is very important one. Not only for his trickery, but mainly for his role in connection with Bertha and his look on the world. It is the most intriguing part.
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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    And if you read Wide Sargasso Sea by Jean Rhyes, the characterization of Rochester is even more sinister. He marries Antoinette [middle name is Bertha] for her money and admittedly for her exotic beauty and things move along swimmingly until he a cousin, Daniel Cosway begins to tell Rochester about the family history and secrets. His character is rather enigmatic when you begin to dissect it. And the other component that probably should be considered is that Brontë herself was not "worldly" when she wrote the character. While she had an enormous infatuation with M. Heger in Brussels, unrequited, she clearly did not understand the depths of romantic love other than from the point of literature [I am including the Bible]. And there is some data on the web concerning her correspondence to him: http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/zoebrigle...ronts_letters/
    I have always thought there was a connection to her emotional attachment to M. Heger, his stern rejection of her infatuation, and the creation of Rochester.

  15. #30
    Registered User kiki1982's Avatar
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    I haven't read Wide Sargasso Sea and I prefer to keep it out of my mind. Not to keep it out of the dscussion, of course, but Rhys only wrote it based on what she thought. It is by no means, to me, a definite idea of Rochester. Of course Rhys's interpretation is partly based on the feminist idea (the man as the definite bad guy), but also on the idea that Rochester was lying (or Charlotte made him lie) about what really happened after their marriage, that she wasn't really mad, but that Rochester told Jane that in order to really divert the guilt for locking her up (and driving her mad). I don't really agree with that, but at the same time, it is a possibility.

    But I agree that it seems sinister, yes.

    Héger certainly has somethin to do with it, yes. Did you know that the air which Rochester sings at the piano to Jane after they have returned from the shopping trip, was a poem about a 'he' connected to Charlotte's time in Brussels? She made an extre piece for it, but the first part, I think, was original.
    One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.

    "Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)

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