Feminism in The Holy Bible.

[Shakira]

Ok before I start I would like to make myself clear. Please anybody dont feel offended by this thread & if anyone does then the mods please close this thread. I dont want any fights. Ok here it goes.

My friend Christine is making her Feminism project on the topic "Feminism in The Holy Bible". She needs her friends' help. Now since I dont know about any such issue in the Bible I'm asking you guys to help me out so that I can help out Christine. Any articles on the net or any of your points are welcome.

Thanks in advance.

[Rosalind]

By 'feminism,' do you mean a stronge female precence, or an actual feminist movement? They're are plenty of strong women floating around (Rachel, Deborah, Mary, Judith, etc...), but since the whole thing takes place in various patriarchal societies, finding feminism as we know it today might be difficult. However, just as a starting point, your friend might want to check out Jesus' take on women's rights. Example: he said that men should have a very good reason (how extreme a reason varies between Gospels) before divorcing their wives. Men could divorce women for pretty much any reason they wanted with very little effort, leaving their ex-wives unwanted and without a future.

[StabnSteer]

Rosalind is right - you may need to specifically define "feminism" in order to have a proper discussion about it biblically. However, do a Google search for "bible feminism" and you will get a number of sources. You may have to head to the library to actually read some of them - but this has been discussed in the literature previously so you should be able to find some information. Best of luck!

[cuppajoe_9]

Well if that isn't going to be tricky.

[Virgil]

Shakira

Have your friend go through the women here:
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/women.html

I don't think you will find feminism in the modern sense, but you will find strong women. Esther comes to mind.

[ShoutGrace]

This is interesting because most Feminist critics attack the Bible for it's supposed misogynistic and chauvinistic qualities.


I interpreted Shakira's first post from that perspective.

.

[Jimco]

Though men may have put women down, God has constantly raised them up.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature." 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
God gave THEM authority over everything, not just HIM. THEY are very good. Man alone was not. Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

The popular idea that the Judeo-Christian God is against feminism stems from a misunderstanding of feminism. Feminism should be advocating equal social, political and legal rights for women.
It’s Islam that puts women down, giving them fewer rights in the eyes of the law. "Men are the managers of the affairs of women because Allah has preferred men over women and women were expended of their Rights". The Koran 4:34

In Moses’ time, some men wanted women to have no inheritance rights. Numbers 27: 5 So Moses brought their case before the LORD 6 and the LORD said to him, 7 "What Zelophehad's daughters are saying is right. You must certainly give them property as an inheritance among their father's relatives and turn their father's inheritance over to them.”
In Jesus’ time, some men wanted only a woman to be punished for something both a man and a woman did. John 8: 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman and made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"
11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

God has never sought to deprive women of honor, glory or justice. He has given them the courage for greatness.
Exo 1: 15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 20 So God was kind to the midwives and the people increased and became even more numerous.
Joshua 2:1 Then Joshua son of Nun secretly sent two spies. "Go, look over the land," he said, "especially Jericho." So they went and entered the house of a prostitute named Rahab and stayed there. 2 The king of Jericho was told, "Some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land." 3 So the king sent this message to Rahab: "Bring out the men who came to you because they have come to spy out the whole land."
4 But the woman had taken the two men and hidden them. She said, "Yes, the men came to me, but I did not know where they had come from. 5 At dusk, the men left. Go after them quickly. You may catch up with them."
Judges 4:4 Deborah, a prophetess, was leading Israel at that time. 6 She sent for Barak and said to him, "The LORD, the God of Israel, commands you: 'Go, take with you ten thousand men and lead the way to Mount Tabor. 7 I will lure Sisera, the commander of Jabin's army, to the Kishon River and give him into your hands.' "
8 Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go."
9 "Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman." 17 Sisera fled on foot to the tent of Jael, the wife of Heber the Kenite, …. 21 But Jael, Heber's wife, picked up a tent peg and a hammer and went quietly to him while he lay fast asleep, exhausted. She drove the peg through his temple into the ground, and he died.

Unfortunately, some people have confused male and female equality with identity. They think women can be the same as men and not just equal. God is not confused. Women may be weaker, but they are often smarter.
1 Sam 25:18 Abigail took loaves of bread, skins of wine, dressed sheep, roasted grain, and cakes of pressed figs, and loaded them on donkeys. 19 But she did not tell her husband Nabal.
20 As she came into a mountain ravine, there were David and his men descending toward her, and she met them. 21 David had just said, "It's been useless—all my watching over this fellow's property in the desert so that nothing of his was missing. He has paid me back evil for good. 22 May God deal with David, be it ever so severely, if by morning I leave alive one male of all who belong to him!"
23 When Abigail saw David, she said: "My lord, let the blame be on me alone. 25 May my lord pay no attention to that wicked man Nabal. 27 And let this gift, which your servant has brought to my master, be given to the men who follow you…. Let no wrongdoing be found in you. 31 my master will not have on his conscience the burden of needless bloodshed of having avenged himself.
32 David said to Abigail, "Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel, who has sent you today to meet me. 33 May you be blessed for your good judgment and for keeping me from bloodshed this day.

Look at the courage and honor of the women around Jesus!
Luke 1:26 God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you." 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." …
38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.
Can you imagine living in a society that has the death penalty for premarital sex and trying to explain a virgin’s pregnancy?

Who stuck by Jesus when He was being executed?
Mat 27: 45From the sixth hour until the ninth hour darkness came over all the land. 46About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"[d] 50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
55Many women were there, watching from a distance. 56Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.
Where were the men?
Mat 26: 50 Then the guards stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
55 Jesus said to the crowd, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come out with swords and clubs to capture me? Every day I sat in the temple courts teaching, and you did not arrest me. 56 Then all the disciples deserted him and fled.
So to whom did God announce His resurrection?
Mat 28:5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. 7Go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him."

One of the greatest costs of modern American feminism is the failure to honor motherhood. Women are encouraged to be average wage earners like average men instead of being great mothers of great men. What would the world call Tamar, Rahab, Ruth or Bathsheba? They could say prostitutes, beggars or sluts. We call them the ancestors of Jesus. It was what they did at home, as mothers, that had the greatest impact on the world. No, they were not honored in their time but it is eternal glory that really matters.
So how does God decide who is worthy of the greatest honor?
Mark 9: 35 Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all."
Mark 12: 41Jesus watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,worth only a fraction of a penny. 43 Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on."

This is feminism, equality and justice, between men and women, before the only true Judge. Equality, not identity.
Gal 3: 26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[cuppajoe_9]

This is interesting because most Feminist critics attack the Bible for it's supposed misogynistic and chauvinistic qualities.

Not to mention the many anti-feminists who use the bible to justify their chauvinistic misogyny.

Please anybody dont feel offended by this thread & if anyone does then the mods please close this thread.

Just noticed this. Who would be offended?

[Virgil]

Wow, Jimco, did you type that up just now or did you have that on hand already? I didn't think anyone would go to that much effort just to make a point in a post.

[cuppajoe_9]

Gen 2:18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

This shows the opposite of your point, no? Feminists generally object to the view of women as 'suitable helpers for men'.

The popular idea that the Judeo-Christian God is against feminism stems from a misunderstanding of feminism. Feminism should be advocating equal social, political and legal rights for women.

Bingo. Thank you.

It’s Islam that puts women down, giving them fewer rights in the eyes of the law.

Oh lord...
Theocracies of any kind have always and will always deprive women and minorities of their rights. The problem is with authortariansism, not with Islam. And need I mention again that Muslims and Christians pray to the same god?

Unfortunately, some people have confused male and female equality with identity. They think women can be the same as men and not just equal. God is not confused. Women may be weaker, but they are often smarter.

At this point, I begin to seriously doubt your qualifications to speak on the subject of feminism. Yeah, maybe women are not as muscular as men on average, but the thing about avegaes is this: maybe the strongest person in the world is a man, but that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of women who could beat the tar out of you. Perhaps you should go back and read the part about advocating social equality for women.

One of the greatest costs of modern American feminism is the failure to honor motherhood. Women are encouraged to be average wage earners like average men instead of being great mothers of great men.

After the first sentence, I'm inclined to agree with you, and am pleased to report that the feminist community in general is aware of the problem and great strides are being made towards correcting it. You second sentence seems to me to be the kind of 'a woman's place is in the home' sort of drivel that the feminist movement is a reaction to.

[Jimco]

The reason I took the time to do a short Bible study is that this subject is so important to our time. There is a vast difference between the way women are treated in Islam and in the West. The west is far from perfect but it is far closer to equality between men and women. We let women drive, go to college, wear their choice of colors, etc.
Perfect equality will only happen when we have the perfect authoritarian theocracy that will rule forever. Mat 22:30 "At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven." We are all going to have perfect bodies and there will be no more male or female roles.
Until that time, all of us who are interested in preserving or increasing equality for women must work together to defend the freedoms we have. The USA is the only western nation that doesn't have a negative population growth. The average birth per woman in Europe is 1.5. The average in muslim nations is 3.9. So, Europe encourages immigration from Muslim states to have enough young workers to pay the retirement benefits of the elderly. Last year, the most popular name for a baby born in the Netherlands was Mohammed. So, how long until the immigrants rule the culture? How long until our western freedoms are lost? A generation? That's why having and raising children in the English speaking world is so important to achieving feminism.
This is not drivel about a woman's place in the home; it is a fact. Fathers need to be in the home raising their kids too. Drivel is saying that Muslims and Christians pray to the same God.
Sure, only One God hears them both, but prayer is a conversation, not just a recital.

[cuppajoe_9]

Ignoring the blatant xenophobia...

This is not drivel about a woman's place in the home; it is a fact. Fathers need to be in the home raising their kids too.

Ok, but that's not what "the woman's place is in the home" means. What that means, roughly, is that women have no place going out and earning careers because this will distract from their 'natural funciton', namely the rearing of children. This runs exactly contrary to the basic feminist tennet that women, as much as anybody else, can do whatever they please with their lives.

Drivel is saying that Muslims and Christians pray to the same God.

The words 'Allah' and 'God' do not describe two different deities, 'Allah' is the arabic word for 'God', which, when capitalized, refers to the Judeo-Christian Yahweh. Christian arabs pray to Allah.

[Shakira]

Hey a big thanks to all for all your help. Thanks from Christine too.

[Jimco]

I stumbled upon this conversation, found the subject interesting and thought we could have a open, informative discussion. In my previous post, I attempted to explain one small difference between Islam and Christianity, their respective views of religious duties towards unbelievers, but it was edited for "flaming." So it is okay here to dismiss the reporting of facts, cold hard numbers, as an "irrational fear" but it is not okay to quote the Quran. We are permitted to make sweeping generalizations like "Theocracies of any kind have always and will always deprive women and minorities of their rights," but we are not permitted to discuss the particulars of Feminism in a real, current, theocracy. So you must look elsewhere to find the truth about Feminism. I suggest you try http://www.homa.org/Details.asp?ContentID=2137352725.

[cuppajoe_9]

We are permitted to make sweeping generalizations like "Theocracies of any kind have always and will always deprive women and minorities of their rights," but we are not permitted to discuss the particulars of Feminism in a real, current, theocracy.

I'm confused. Are we perhaps using diferent definitions of 'theocracy'? I know of no theocracies (autocratic governments based on religion) that have been tollerant of feminism, past or present.