What made me see Mr Bennet in very poor light came at the end of P&P when he is said to prefer Wickham over any other son in law, despite the fact that Wickham seduced his young daughter.
Darcy was critical of Elizabeth's family, in fact he even told her that their behaviour made him question whether he should marry her.
I completely agree. I think she was shallow by today's standards but not so much for that time period. I mean, it was imperative that her daughters marry well. What else was she going to focus on?Originally Posted by hawthorns
And yes, Persuasion is my favorite by Austen. I love the story of P&P but I think Persuasion is a more well written book. Sense & Sensibility was definitely my least favorite of hers
I seemed to have missed something in relation to Jane. Mr Bennet has equal respect for Jane and Elizabeth. Jane seems to me an angelic character akin to Dorothea in Middlemarch or Sonya (Sofia Semyonovna Marmeladova) in Crime and Punishment. Jane sees fit to put the best construction on everything. Is that naivete, or maturity?
I think this passage is the funniest and most outrageous, in a very amusing novel.
``I admire all my three sons-in-law highly,'' said he. ``Wickham, perhaps, is my favourite; but I think I shall like your husband quite as well as Jane's.''
Let's not forget the intensity of Mr Bennet's anger at both Lydia and Wickham, following the elopement. Notwithstanding, the urbane Wickham is excellent company, with none of the starchy formality of Mr Darcy; and life is too short to obsess on the past. Like Mr Bennet, Wickham has married for the wrong reasons and finds home-life has little to offer. Despite or perhaps because of duplicity, Wickham is preferable in that he is better company than the stiff and proper Mr Darcy or the sociable, malleable Mr Bingley. And social status counts for little with Mr Bennet.
But beyond all else, what an outrageous thing to say to Elizabeth! What a sense of the ironic.
"Love does not alter the beloved, it alters itself"
I agree with you that the quote is one of the funniest in the book, but it's nothing to do with Wickham being good company, or in the same boat as Mr Bennet. Irony is Mr Bennet's coping mechanism. He laughs at the silliness of his wife and younger daughters, thereby evading all his responsibilities. Darcy and Bingley will both make exemplary husbands, so there's nothing for Mr Bennet to laugh at there. Wickham on the other hand is a blackgaurd, and will no doubt provide Mr B with endless opportunities for ironic comment.
Elizabeth, who understands her father's sarcasm, will know that he's only joking about preferring Wickham.
Exit, pursued by a bear.
For P&P fans I recommend Death Comes to Pemberley by PD James.Wickham is a major player, but I wont give more away. Not so much a parody of JA's style, perhaps more of an hommage.
MAJOR SPOILAR ALERT I can't comment on both of the novels you mention as I have not read them, but I definitely think that Austen did not really value people who were led too much by other people's opinions. Now I have read Mansfield Park it is quite clear that she somewhat mocks and even despises people who are led by others. Of course Jane has great qualities (her belief in the goodness of people is quite commendable, but I think it is Lizzie who seems to be quite at a loss why she lets the situation go as it is) and Mr Bennet values both his daughters, that's not under discussion, but had Bingley not been set right by Darcy, he would never have been happy or not have realised what he had missed. Darcy makes an error of judgement based on the wrong principles (social status mainly) and takes Bingley away. Bingley, though a fully grown man passionately in love, does not do anything despite what he believes. It is only because Darcy sees his mistake partly because Lizzie essentially throws it at him (if I am not mistaken) that he takes Bingley back and that he knows that only time is needed to provoke a proposal. Admittedly Jane is not really in a position to do anything positive, but Bingley definitely is. However, he lets himself be led by Darcy. Had Darcy been a Lady Catherine de Bergh (?) Bingley would never have married Jane and would have tried to overcome his passion.
STILL MAJOR SPOILER ALERT
Austen values people who make their own decisions, in the face of everything else that may be adversary. Henry Tilney basically tells his father to f*ck off when he orders him to give up Catherine Morland. Though Austen does not wish to 'condone filial disobedience', it is clear that she support him and Catherine and scolds General Tilney for his conduct. Fanny Price gets her due reward when Henry Crawford is proved to be the fickle and vain man he is. Her uncle was displeased about her not accepting Crawford's proposal until he is exposed. Julia Bertram who elopes with Mr Yates is, however praised by Austen, not for her elopement (because that was brought on by Maria's misconduct), but for her astute action when she believed she was going to lose it all. Maria Rushworth née Bertram, on the other hand, is led to destruction by Crawford. Lady Bertram is frankly useless because she has no opinion, not even about how she feels. Mr Rushworth is also mocked because he is too stupid to have any opinion and looks to other people for it. Miss Mary Crawford does have an opinion but is very much influenced by the (wrong) people around her. Eleanor Tilney is a somewhat sad girl oppressed by her father. Although she is intelligent, you feel she is kind of pitied for not being free enough. Mrs Allen (also in NA) had opinions which always mysteriously agreed with other people's opinions, no matter how diametrically opposed they were. Harriet Smith is also portrayed as a kind of sad creature who is led astray by Emma Woodhouse without clear reason apart from gullibility.
STILL SPOILER ALERT
This does not mean that Austen does not mock people with the wrong opinions (Mrs Norris from MP, for example, or Lady Russell from Persuasion), but it stands no doubt that they who rely on other people to lead their lives are no happy people. Not least Persuasion deals with that. Had Anne Eliot decided to marry her cousin because everyone seemed to expect it (indeed the marriage was already considered as taken place almost), regardless of what happened later with Captain Wentworth, she would have been more than unhappy and miserable. Ten-odd years prior to the start of that novel, she was led by others because of her age, and what happened? Surely Austen did not approve of people who did not consider their own lot.
SPOILERS FINALLY OVER
I suppose, in the long term, Mr Bennet would have found a more than interesting and interested coversation partner in Mr Darcy. Maybe that's why Austen mentioned that he turned up at Pemberley once in while.
I think Wickham is to be pitied because he rushed into marriage. Maybe that is what Mr Bennet is on about. Ah, poor Wickham. He'll regret the day he said his vows... like me.
Agree with that. Great book, athough I think James missed a few interesting opportunities, it was rather sweet.I put a review about it on the Austen forum.
One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.
"Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)
My favourite Austen is the oft reviled Emma. Followed by P&P, Persuasion, Northanger Abbey, S&S, and Mansfield Park.
They're all worth reading though.
"If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
- Margaret Atwood
Yes, I accept all you have said, but I cannot see how most of it applies to Jane Bennet. She would have needed to be in-your-face assertive to have done more than she did, especially in those times so far removed from radical feminism. Neither is Jane a pliable Harriet Smith. Who can we say manipulated Jane? As for Bingley, what he did or didn't do in her absence is hardly a matter for Jane.
Mr Bennet's, "Wickham, perhaps, is my favourite", is bound to mean the Wickham provides him the most amusement and entertainment for a variety of reasons, including endless opportunities for ironic comment. Here, favourite certainly does not mean most worthy or edifying. We should remember, there was a time when Elizabeth too found Wickham excellent company.
Like good Dr Sloper in Henry James' Washington Square, we may say of Mr Bennet:
You would have surprised him if you had told him so; but it is a
literal fact that he almost never addressed his daughter save in the
ironical form. Whenever he addressed her he gave her pleasure; but
she had to cut her pleasure out of the piece, as it were. There were
portions left over, light remnants and snippets of irony, which she
never knew what to do with, which seemed too delicate for her own
use; and yet Catherine, lamenting the limitations of her
understanding, felt that they were too valuable to waste and had a
belief that if they passed over her head they yet contributed to the
general sum of human wisdom.
"Love does not alter the beloved, it alters itself"
Wow, that Henry James can write!You would have surprised him if you had told him so; but it is a
literal fact that he almost never addressed his daughter save in the
ironical form. Whenever he addressed her he gave her pleasure; but
she had to cut her pleasure out of the piece, as it were. There were
portions left over, light remnants and snippets of irony, which she
never knew what to do with, which seemed too delicate for her own
use; and yet Catherine, lamenting the limitations of her
understanding, felt that they were too valuable to waste and had a
belief that if they passed over her head they yet contributed to the
general sum of human wisdom.
Exit, pursued by a bear.
Yes, of course we are not talking about doing anything positive, like writing or running after him. God, no. But Austen I have the impression somewhat despised anyone who was also led in their minds by their feelings of 'oh, everything will be alright' and 'it doesn't matter'. Indeed, Jane is different from Harriet Smith, but she is passive. She may think things more than Harriet Smith, but she doesn't do anything with it. Elizabeth definitely made her opinion known to Darcy by stabbing under the water, so to say. Even before his calamitous first proposal. Jane doesn't. And I believe Lizzie can't even see why she is so much at peace with that.
Judging for the sake of judging like a Caroline Bingley or a Miss Mary Crawford is no good, but playing the martyr is not going to make you happy either. I think that's what Jane's affliction in the middle was about.
One has to laugh before being happy, because otherwise one risks to die before having laughed.
"Je crains [...] que l'âme ne se vide à ces passe-temps vains, et que le fin du fin ne soit la fin des fins." (Edmond Rostand, Cyrano de Bergerac, Acte III, Scène VII)
I just had a brainstorm as to why these words of Mr Bennet stuck me as incredibly funny. Mr Bennet and Jane Austen are both alluding, in different flavours, to a time when Elizabeth too found Wickham delightful company. Not only is Mr Bennet subtly teasing Elizabeth but also the idea of like father: like daughter is clever irony implying that anyone may be attracted to external appearance despite the rotten core. Wickham really is congenial, and even more so because he and Lydia, especially, live so far away, following the covert financial deal done with Darcy.
Austen - and perhaps Mr Bennet too - is making ironic commentary on the shallow nature of interpersonal judgements, and on the attraction that less-than-savoury, suave people have for most of us. Time heals, and Wickham may be an exception to: whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Rather clever.
"Love does not alter the beloved, it alters itself"
I am reading Pride and Prejudice right now, and I think that Mrs. Bennet is one of the most well designed characters in literature: it's one of those particular characters in literature that are not just meant to describe a specific person: on the contrary, they describe a prototype, such as, for those who know about our Italian classics, the famous figure of "don Abbondio" in Alessandro Manzoni's Promessi Sposi, who's character describes very vividly a typical behaviour of those times.
Without Mrs Bennet as a character, the vivid description of the 1800s English society that Jane Austeen is trying to give us would lose half of its value.
Regarding her being shallow, maybe a little bit, but the point is: should we judge characters from our modern point of view or rather from within their society's point of view? I'd go for the second one of course, which would still make her a bit shallow I suppose, but not so much as we ourselves may judge from our point of view.
What I'm sure of, is that this character is not intended as a "bad" character: she's got her vices, but still is intended as a good person.
I happened today upon this text toward the end of the novel, where Mr Bennet relates a letter from Mr Collins that unveils Darcy's love for Elizabeth:
"Oh!" cried Elizabeth, "I am excessively diverted. But it is so strange!"
"Yes—that is what makes it amusing. Had they fixed on any other man it would have been nothing; but his perfect indifference, and your pointed dislike, make it so delightfully absurd! Much as I abominate writing, I would not give up Mr. Collins's correspondence for any consideration. Nay, when I read a letter of his, I cannot help giving him the preference even over Wickham, much as I value the impudence and hypocrisy of my son-in-law. And pray, Lizzy, what said Lady Catherine about this report? Did she call to refuse her consent?"
"Love does not alter the beloved, it alters itself"
This might sound strange but I actually can't remember if I have read Persuasion as I've seen so many Austens and read this and that. I don't think I have read it all the way through perhaps? However, I much prefer P&P over Persuasion in terms of the adaptations I have seen. I have also just finished reading P&P again and don't think my great enjoyment of it can be bettered by a reading of Persuasion in any way. Persuasion would have to be vastly better than the adaptions have shown it. P&P for me just sparkled all the way through so much that it would take something wonderful to beat it. Mr Collins in particular is such a fantastic comic character, brilliantly done.
Interesting point about Mr Bennet's attitude towards Wickham. I think he just enjoys his outgoing amiable manner so much, that he can forgive him for the 'misunderstanding' surrounding his and Lydia's marriage. He even says something like he makes love to us all so delightfully, when he and Lydia visit after their marriage.
As to the OPs homework, yes she is a shallow woman, especially when judged by today's standards, but not as much so when judged in context.
Sorry for the double post, it is too much hassle to go back and edit it in now. Yes, this just shows how much humour he gets out of Mr Collins. I love the early part of the novel when Mr Collins first comes to visit (in search of a wife). Mr Collins just doesn't pick up on any form of irony at all, both from Mr Bennet and Lizzy. In turn Mr Bennet I think finds him even more amusing, as we do of course.
Got a massive period drama addiction going on at the moment, both me and Mrs Neely. We have just finished re-watching the likes of Jane Eyre, P&P, North and South, Persuasion and have Sense and Sensibility, which we have seen before, but also have The Buccaneers and Wives and Daughters lined up, which we haven't. Well Mrs N has seen The Buccaneers, but not Wives and Daughters. As for reading; I don't know what to read next?
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