I think in Revelations it says that God will separate the bad from good, and the good will go to Jerusalem or something along those lines.Originally Posted by Paulclem
I think in Revelations it says that God will separate the bad from good, and the good will go to Jerusalem or something along those lines.
What you say is not wrong but...
1) While there are places where the Bible that describes the divide as between the "good" and the "bad," the wider context of the Bible makes clear that both good and bad are equally sinful but because they trust Jesus the "good" have been forgiven.
2) The reference to Jerusalem is symbolic, not geographic. Jerusalem was the capital of Israel (and the home of God's Temple), and Israel was the chosen people loved by God. As such Jerusalem becomes shorthand for all those saved through trust in God and/or the eternal home of these people. So, fancy picture for heaven.
Hi togre really nice to see you back. I hope you do not mind me answering this.
What do you mean by good and bad are equally sinful?
somehow find it difficult to believe God would chose one over another.2) The reference to Jerusalem is symbolic, not geographic. Jerusalem was the capital of Israel (and the home of God's Temple), and Israel was the chosen people loved by God. As such Jerusalem becomes shorthand for all those saved through trust in God and/or the eternal home of these people. So, fancy picture for heaven.
Surely in anybody's mind that is not right and a god that is not fair is not a god.
I am not sure I believe this Jerusalem bit because in reality if you look at what Jerusalem has created is bloodshed and war.
God would not have a favourite one or a beloved one simply because it would create tension and war.
There is no such a thing as the chosen one by a god that creates everyone regardless of race.
Last edited by cacian; 10-12-2012 at 10:02 AM.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
I see how what I said can be unclear. Sorry.
Volya mentioned the good [people] being separated from the bad [people]. My point was that the difference between "good" people who go to heaven and "bad" people who go to hell, is NOT that the "good" people are nicer, better, have kept God's laws perfectly, or deserve a better fate based on their behavior.
The Bible says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Everyone deserves to go to hell, because of sin and rebellion against God. That is, if you judge based on what a person does and thinks. But Jesus became a substitute--He lived a sin-free life. He suffered the pangs of hell on the cross. He earned forgiveness for the world.
The difference between the "good" (people going to heaven) and the "bad" (people going to hell) is the good benefit from what Jesus did by trusting in him (faith) and the bad do not benefit from what Jesus did by rejecting it/him (unbelief).
This ties in to my second point/your second question: Since no one deserves God's love (no one is lovable in any sense to God) any one who is loved is loved not because of something in them, but because of something in God. God loves the unlovable. He chooses to give his love to those who do not deserve. (and in giving his love, he forgives, washes away sin, makes them into something good and pleasing in his eyes.)
Reading some of Mary Boyce's studies of Zoroastrianism I was under the impression that the Christian heaven and hell idea originally came from Zarathustra, however, looking at the Wikipedia article on Hell, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell), it seems there are many different origins for the ideas of what happens after death.
Regardless of the history, togre's point that much of any of these religious traditions is "symbolic" is important. A rejection of any religious tradition based on a search for literal contradictions in that tradition doesn't amount to much. Also, being "symbolic" doesn't mean there is no truth behind the religious tradition. Although some claim there is no evidence for an afterlife, near-death experiences do offer evidence. Nor are near-death experiences something people have only recently found out about. Plato used a near-death experience in the last book of the Republic to justify his theory of reincarnation.
I think we might agree on much this, Paulclem, I am just using your comment to expand on the history of the ideas. I also want to make clear that linking Christianity with Zoroastrian beliefs does not imply negativity on my part toward either of those religions.
Last edited by YesNo; 10-12-2012 at 10:16 AM.
My blog: https://frankhubeny.blog/
I see what you are saying and agree with most of it.
The only issue I have with this is this ambivalence idea of good or bad.
It comes across as simplistic when there is more to it.
Humans are complex and go beyond this ambivalence.
For the bible to think god and good goes hand in hand is misleading.
Therefore the concept of heaven and hell is misleading too.
Last edited by cacian; 10-13-2012 at 03:23 AM.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
I'm sure it does, but the modern conception of heaven is not described as such in the bible.
Exactly right: those who get into heaven are just as sinful as those who will go to hell. Entrance to heaven is in no way based on merit. It is stated in the NT that no one who gets into heaven may brag or self-congratulate about reaching heaven as it is not their works that will get them into heaven but God's mercy. Belief in Jesus as the Son of God is the (necessary and sufficient) ticket in.
I am not sure that mercy is entirely right.
The reason for this is that it encourages people to commit heneous crime making them think they can get away with it.
It cannot be the case.
Heaven is heaven and what is more it is difficult to describe by anyone's standards since no one has ever been or could even be.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
I guess yes and yes is the quick reply here. But like most of us I'm in no hurry to arrive early in either.
Interesting I think you are very right. Why rush when you can hush haha.
Only kidding I was just thinking what I should have actually put at the beginning of the thread is this:
What is heaven?
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
How do you know?
I was also merely saying that the common conception of heaven is not how it has been described in the bible - seeing friends/ family, like a happy reunion, the inclusionof animals. As for descriptions of heaven, we still seem to be taken up with the clouds, whiteness and harps idea - basically, when you see modern representations of heaven in things like film. Where do these ideas come from? They certainly don't come from the bible.
?
I do not know and no one does at least here amongst the livings.
So if I understand you you are saying that it is not all this? If I had to hazard a guess I would say it is something like this.I was also merely saying that the common conception of heaven is not how it has been described in the bible - seeing friends/ family, like a happy reunion, the inclusion of animals.
Everyone has an idea of what is a heaven is and I do not even know whether it is called heaven. It is just a word.As for descriptions of heaven, we still seem to be taken up with the clouds, whiteness and harps idea - basically, when you see modern representations of heaven in things like film. Where do these ideas come from? They certainly don't come from the bible.
it may never try
but when it does it sigh
it is just that
good
it fly
How do you know no-one does?
Heaven, has been described like this but on what basis? If it's not biblical, then it must be based on ideas from somewhere else.
Some people have an idea about heaven, and perhaps it is their projections that have caused these ideas to take off where there has been litle to rely on.
I think we can work out how we came to this idea of Heaven pretty easily. From what I know of mythology and religion, the ancient Greeksbelieved in the Underworld where Hades ruled, and Mount Olympus where the rest of the Gods lived. Mount Olympus was up in the sky beyond the clouds.
Now although in this idea of things, ALL of the dead went to the Underworld, my understanding is that once they went there they were separated, with the better people getting a better/less-punishing afterlife (anyone with better knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong).
The greatest heroes went to Mt Olympus to live with the gods. Now this already draws parallels with the modern concept of Heaven, with the good/heroic going 'up to the clouds in the sky' and the bad people going down underground to a dark, desolate world. Angels have also an extensive history, with the word itself meaning 'messenger', relating to Hermes the winged messenger god. I believe they also had cherubs back then too.
So from looking at what the Greeks believed, it's not too much of a jump to see how this has evolved over time into the concept we have now.
This is all pure speculation from me based on what I know, so I'm not entirely sure how much is true.
Last edited by Volya; 11-12-2012 at 03:20 PM. Reason: wording
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