The Literature Network

Go Back   Literature Network Forums > Discussion on Specific Authors & Books > Author List: > Donne, John

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old 08-27-2008, 12:51 AM   #1
Ignoramus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3
Please help with Donne's Negative Love

I'm listening to Philip Adams' Harmonium (choir and orchestra) where a huge first chunk is setting this poem (see below) to music.

I have no idea what this means, so I have signed up to this board in the hope that someone who is used to reading poems can explain? There was a quick Q+A about this 4 years ago on this board, but the two answers given there tell me nothing.

For example: Who are "they Which on an eye, cheek, lip, can prey"? All I can think of is having one's face bothered by buzzing flies, a common occurence in, say, Australia.

But what's this about "soaring higher than virtue, or the mind to admire?"
What's "higher than virtue" and Admire what?

"My love, though silly, is more brave" - why silly, and braver than what?

And so it goes - right to the end ("I cannot miss" - miss what?)

I'm totally baffled and hence the music makes less sense to me than it probably could or should. (Great recording! On ECM Records).

Many thanks


NEGATIVE LOVE.
by John Donne

I NEVER stoop'd so low, as they
Which on an eye, cheek, lip, can prey ;
Seldom to them which soar no higher
Than virtue, or the mind to admire.
For sense and understanding may
Know what gives fuel to their fire ;
My love, though silly, is more brave ;
For may I miss, whene'er I crave,
If I know yet what I would have.

If that be simply perfectest,
Which can by no way be express'd
But negatives, my love is so.
To all, which all love, I say no.
If any who deciphers best,
What we know not—ourselves—can know,
Let him teach me that nothing. This
As yet my ease and comfort is,
Though I speed not, I cannot miss.
Ignoramus is offline   Reply With Quote
Word from our Sponsor:

Old 08-27-2008, 12:55 AM   #2
JBI
Bibliophile
 
JBI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,132
Its a rhetoric game. It uses negative, verses positive, to define what he loves. Instead of saying, "I love this, that etc." or in his words, "an eye, cheek, lip," he merely knows what he doesn't love, and what he doesn't want, thereby leaving the element of growth, and surprise.

In essence, his love has no definition, as it isn't anything, but merely is not things.

The I cannot miss is actually a pun, meaning miss excitement/love, yet also miss as in land of the mark, land off of what he desires, be wrong.
__________________
S'i' Fosse Foco, arderei 'l mondo - Cecco Angiolieri c. 1260-1312
JBI is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-28-2008, 01:29 AM   #3
Ignoramus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 3
I sort of see what JBI means, and it is reinforced by this, the only part I think I can parse out:
"If that be simply perfectest,
Which can by no way be express'd
But negatives, my love is so."
Meaning that his love is one of those things that are at their best when expressed with negatives. But then - what does that mean, really?
The rest is just incomprehensible to me. Anyone?
Ignoramus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2008, 11:50 PM   #4
Paracelsus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: South of Sydney, Australia
Posts: 5
I NEVER stoop'd so low, as they
Which on an eye, cheek, lip, can prey ;

[The speaker of the poem – “I” – says that he never “stoop’d” or sunk so low as those lovers who claim that they love a woman because of some physical feature she has - her eyes, cheeks, or lips.]

Seldom to them which soar no higher
Than virtue, or the mind to admire.

[nor does he sink so low as those lovers who only look for moral qualities or spiritual qualities in their women (“virtue or the mind”)]

For sense and understanding may
Know what gives fuel to their fire ;

[because they know the exact reasons why they love – they know the things which fuel love’s fire.]

My love, though silly, is more brave ;
For may I miss, whene'er I crave,
If I know yet what I would have.

[But the speaker’s love, though it might seem frivolous to some (“silly” - or crazy since it has no "reason") is actually stronger and more real (“more brave”) ]

If that be simply perfectest,
Which can by no way be express'd
But negatives, my love is so.

[Donne is referring here to the field of “negative theology”, as derived from Dionysus the Areopagite, a sixth century Syrian monk, who taught that God was hidden in the darkness, and can only be understood by negatives – that is, by negations and by non-intellectual ways of knowing. He claims to love for the same reason, or lack of reason – an inexpressible or “negative” reason].

To all, which all love, I say no.

[He doesn’t agree with those who claim to love everything about their woman. ]

If any who deciphers best,
What we know not—ourselves—can know,
Let him teach me that nothing. This
As yet my ease and comfort is,
Though I speed not, I cannot miss.

[Donne often alludes to the idea that humans are low in self-knowledge. In fact, can we really know ourselves at all? If anyone claims to know his own mind, let him teach the speaker what the reasons are for love. The speaker is comforted in his belief because, although he doesn’t know exactly what it is he looking for in his love, he can’t fail for the same reason.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Paracelsus; 11-06-2008 at 11:55 PM.
Paracelsus is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Poems Of A Chinese Student warlik Personal Poetry 12 12-27-2008 01:55 AM
What is Love? Bruce Bradley Philosophical Literature 67 06-14-2008 10:50 PM
Love PerAnnum Religious Texts 26 05-12-2008 12:54 PM
How do i love thee? Let me count the ways. anahita Browning, Elizabeth Barrett 5 11-18-2007 10:59 AM
John Donne's Negative Love midwest Poems, Poets, and Poetry 3 12-02-2004 08:41 PM


Enter your email address to subscribe to the forum newsletter:


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:07 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2006, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
Site Copyright © 2000-2004 Jalic LLC. All rights reserved.