What's it about anyway?

Laur_101 · 11-16-2006, 10:52 AM

Hey everyone. I was just sitting here thinking about what to write for my english essay about Blake and his "Songs of Inocence and Experience". Does it make sense if really blake was struggling with the idea of what to believe. Like i think with songs of innocence and experience, blake was sort of wondering really what to believe. I know some people called him a Christian Gnostic, which i dont know somewhat makes sense. but what if in songs of innocence and experience he was tossing around the ideas of Christians and god. Because in songs of innocence and experience there are a lot of references to the bible and god himself. Does this make sense to anyone? or am i looking way too deep? to be honest i think he isnt really sure what to believe and through his poems its a way for him to figure things out. and he does this through the songs of innocence and experience comparing the songs of innocence to gentle, pure, sweet and innocent things in the world, and the songs of experience to evil, mature, grown up and hard things in this world. hope someone understands what im trying to say..

Bethan · 11-27-2006, 10:55 AM

You're right - Blake's ideas were very conflicted, however he was tremendously influenced by Swedenbourg - I don't know whether or not you've looked into it, and this is evident in his poetry as he cites the establishment as a force of imprisonment, particularly witht he religious 'taboos' thrown around that restrict the human nature and appreciation of the natural beauty of the world.
In my personal opinion, although Blake does use a lot of religious references it is not necessarily in a poisitive light. There are several more sinister connotations attached.
I'm not sure that makes any sense, but hey! Hope it helps.

allenjs · 02-05-2007, 02:04 PM

You are not "looking way too deep", you are psychoanalyzing a dead person who isn't in the room to defend himself. Next thing you'll be claiming he had issues with his mother.

Blake was not afraid of paradoxes; he was not afraid of things he could not understand. The problem with religious people today is that they would rather *appear* to understand than actually understand, and thus cling to doctrine and orthodoxy to avoid staring paradox in the face.

How do you know you will die if you have never experience being dead? How do you know you have free will, when clearly the world is deterministic? How could time "begin", and does it "end"? Why does God create bad tings in this world? (And the list goes on)

Blake was not afraid to ask these question. Blake was not even close to being a man of doubts; he had immeasurable faith. It was his faith which allowed him to speak the truth without fear (did he who made the lamb make thee). If faith must persist by denying the truth, it is faith in a false god.

Blake even resolved these paradoxes. Please do not attempt to read his explanations, such as Jerusalem. Instead, seek wisdom in your life and resolve them yourself. Then, once you have reached a resolution, approach Blake again and see if you are on the right path. If you feel some doubts, go back to life and seek more wisdom. One day you will read Blake, and say "Yes! This is the truth I hold!"

Blake saw the errors of worship of authority (church political organization). But he was human like all of us.

For example, his first break with the church was when he wanted to divorce his wife. He spent nearly a decade trying to change the church to meet his own personal desires. Note that he may have been right; the point being that he had a conflict of interest.

His other conflict of interest was when Swedeborg said it was OK to go get a concubine. William wanted a concubine, and asked his wife about the matter. She reacted with such hurt that he immediately dropped the idea and decided that concubines were immoral -- once again breaking from earthly religious authority due to personal interest.

William was an early proponent of Swedenborg, but also wrote that "Swedenborg never uttered a word of truth". He ditched several other mentors throughout his life. To him, earthly masters were simply one route by which to approach the true master.

rintrah · 02-06-2007, 02:20 PM

Blake wrote Songs of Innocence on the eve of the French Revolution.
This is significant, because he saw himself as a kind of reincarnation of Milton who was the poet of the English republic of the 1640's. Blake was hoping for an English revolution, a new order, and his Songs of Innocence reflect an optimistic enthusiam for a the new order, and have many revolutionary themes and motifs.

However, by the time the Songs of Experience had been composed, news of Robespierre's Reign of Terror, mass public execution and massacres in the wake of the revolution. The horror of these events made a revolution in England less likely, and so these later poems reflect a sad sense of loss, hope is gone, and there is a tone of dispair in each poem.

It is a useful exercise to compare similar poems from each book - the Lamb and the Tyger, the optimism of the Echoing Green and the darkness of The Garden of Love.

It is also worth remembering that these were works of art as much as of literature. Blake created the text as part of an artistic image, each plate being etched by him and coloured by his wife under his direction. To read the plain text on the page is to only see half the story!

Hope this helps.

rintrah · 02-06-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allenjs

The problem with religious people today is that they would rather *appear* to understand than actually understand, and thus cling to doctrine and orthodoxy to avoid staring paradox in the face.

Sorry, allenjs. I don't see what this has to do with Blake or his poetry. You seem misinformed about religion and religious people, many of whom struggle with life's paradoxes just like everyone else. Blake certainly rejected the contraints of the organised religion of his day, but the religious practices of his day were very different from those in our day.

ennison · 02-06-2007, 07:56 PM

'he .............. decided that concubines were immoral -- once again breaking from earthly religious authority'

You lost me here.

I count myself fortunate not to know the religious people you refer to.

stacey22 · 02-28-2007, 05:36 PM

Hia, Im doing an English degree and just thought I'd say that Blakes poems definately question religion and belief but in more of a synical way. I think that Blake wrote these poems as a way of getting us to question typical values and standards. He was obviously shaped by religion and after experiencing life began to question his sheltered child. Poems such as 'to Tirzah' allow the reader to understand the power of suggestion and to see that Blake began to see religion as a barrier that only allow him to believe specific things. U are on the right tracks with the religious element and it isnt too deep at all but I do not feel he questions himself but the role of the parent, and the role of religion, he is questioning boundaries and their over powering significance. All of Blakes poems are incredibly ambiguous and engage the reader in the content. Hope that helps a little bit.

11-16-2006, 10:52 AM	#1
Laur_101 ~laur~ Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2	What's it about anyway? Hey everyone. I was just sitting here thinking about what to write for my english essay about Blake and his "Songs of Inocence and Experience". Does it make sense if really blake was struggling with the idea of what to believe. Like i think with songs of innocence and experience, blake was sort of wondering really what to believe. I know some people called him a Christian Gnostic, which i dont know somewhat makes sense. but what if in songs of innocence and experience he was tossing around the ideas of Christians and god. Because in songs of innocence and experience there are a lot of references to the bible and god himself. Does this make sense to anyone? or am i looking way too deep? to be honest i think he isnt really sure what to believe and through his poems its a way for him to figure things out. and he does this through the songs of innocence and experience comparing the songs of innocence to gentle, pure, sweet and innocent things in the world, and the songs of experience to evil, mature, grown up and hard things in this world. hope someone understands what im trying to say.. Last edited by Laur_101; 11-19-2006 at 02:06 PM.

02-05-2007, 02:04 PM	#3
allenjs Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1	Songs of Experience You are not "looking way too deep", you are psychoanalyzing a dead person who isn't in the room to defend himself. Next thing you'll be claiming he had issues with his mother. Blake was not afraid of paradoxes; he was not afraid of things he could not understand. The problem with religious people today is that they would rather appear to understand than actually understand, and thus cling to doctrine and orthodoxy to avoid staring paradox in the face. How do you know you will die if you have never experience being dead? How do you know you have free will, when clearly the world is deterministic? How could time "begin", and does it "end"? Why does God create bad tings in this world? (And the list goes on) Blake was not afraid to ask these question. Blake was not even close to being a man of doubts; he had immeasurable faith. It was his faith which allowed him to speak the truth without fear (did he who made the lamb make thee). If faith must persist by denying the truth, it is faith in a false god. Blake even resolved these paradoxes. Please do not attempt to read his explanations, such as Jerusalem. Instead, seek wisdom in your life and resolve them yourself. Then, once you have reached a resolution, approach Blake again and see if you are on the right path. If you feel some doubts, go back to life and seek more wisdom. One day you will read Blake, and say "Yes! This is the truth I hold!" Blake saw the errors of worship of authority (church political organization). But he was human like all of us. For example, his first break with the church was when he wanted to divorce his wife. He spent nearly a decade trying to change the church to meet his own personal desires. Note that he may have been right; the point being that he had a conflict of interest. His other conflict of interest was when Swedeborg said it was OK to go get a concubine. William wanted a concubine, and asked his wife about the matter. She reacted with such hurt that he immediately dropped the idea and decided that concubines were immoral -- once again breaking from earthly religious authority due to personal interest. William was an early proponent of Swedenborg, but also wrote that "Swedenborg never uttered a word of truth". He ditched several other mentors throughout his life. To him, earthly masters were simply one route by which to approach the true master.

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11-27-2006, 10:55 AM	#2
Bethan Little book worm Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Hastings, England Posts: 6	You're right - Blake's ideas were very conflicted, however he was tremendously influenced by Swedenbourg - I don't know whether or not you've looked into it, and this is evident in his poetry as he cites the establishment as a force of imprisonment, particularly witht he religious 'taboos' thrown around that restrict the human nature and appreciation of the natural beauty of the world. In my personal opinion, although Blake does use a lot of religious references it is not necessarily in a poisitive light. There are several more sinister connotations attached. I'm not sure that makes any sense, but hey! Hope it helps.

02-06-2007, 02:20 PM	#4
rintrah Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Wales Posts: 57	Blake wrote Songs of Innocence on the eve of the French Revolution. This is significant, because he saw himself as a kind of reincarnation of Milton who was the poet of the English republic of the 1640's. Blake was hoping for an English revolution, a new order, and his Songs of Innocence reflect an optimistic enthusiam for a the new order, and have many revolutionary themes and motifs. However, by the time the Songs of Experience had been composed, news of Robespierre's Reign of Terror, mass public execution and massacres in the wake of the revolution. The horror of these events made a revolution in England less likely, and so these later poems reflect a sad sense of loss, hope is gone, and there is a tone of dispair in each poem. It is a useful exercise to compare similar poems from each book - the Lamb and the Tyger, the optimism of the Echoing Green and the darkness of The Garden of Love. It is also worth remembering that these were works of art as much as of literature. Blake created the text as part of an artistic image, each plate being etched by him and coloured by his wife under his direction. To read the plain text on the page is to only see half the story! Hope this helps.

02-06-2007, 07:56 PM	#6
ennison Registered User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 919	'he .............. decided that concubines were immoral -- once again breaking from earthly religious authority' You lost me here. I count myself fortunate not to know the religious people you refer to.

02-28-2007, 05:36 PM	#7
stacey22 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 2	Hia, Im doing an English degree and just thought I'd say that Blakes poems definately question religion and belief but in more of a synical way. I think that Blake wrote these poems as a way of getting us to question typical values and standards. He was obviously shaped by religion and after experiencing life began to question his sheltered child. Poems such as 'to Tirzah' allow the reader to understand the power of suggestion and to see that Blake began to see religion as a barrier that only allow him to believe specific things. U are on the right tracks with the religious element and it isnt too deep at all but I do not feel he questions himself but the role of the parent, and the role of religion, he is questioning boundaries and their over powering significance. All of Blakes poems are incredibly ambiguous and engage the reader in the content. Hope that helps a little bit.