Fancy a Chicken Supper?

[LitNetIsGreat]

Neely,

I went ahead and voted for a chicken is a chicken, though I have nothing against free range "yard bird" (that's what we called it growing up on the southside of Dallas).
I'm just another one among the oblivious millions, who run up to the nearest store and pick up a package of "Pilgrims Pride" without giving it a second thought.
You may relish in a small victory though; I will at least give it a second thought next time I head to the market.

Gilliatt

Good man, you make a serious point though which is at the heart of the problem - one of habit. It's too easy to walk into a shop, buy a chicken sandwich, eat chicken pasta etc and think nothing of it, and why should we, it's the normal thing to do and (nearly) everybody else does it?

However it is only when you start to really think about where things come from and take a step back that things for me don't add up. When you start to look at the conditions which these animals are kept in, well, it is abuse.

Organic or yard birds as you call them may (or may not) be harder to get hold of and be more expensive (though you can do things to reduce the cost, see above somewhere) but every one of these bought is a vote for a much kinder and in my opinion, a much fairer, healthier system.

I would also add that in terms of caged egg production it is even worse. At least the "standard" chickens which are all crowded together at approximately 19 per sq metre are killed after about 40 days, for the caged egg producer it is a much more horrible fate. I can't imaged that in this day and age (our "civilized" age) that we lock up chickens 5 or 6 to a cage and leave them there for a year.

I would like to see the number of complaints if the advert with the dog was joined with 4 or 5 others in the kennel and was locked up for a year without allowing them out and forcing them to sit in their own feces. Hardly a nice Christmas advert, but one at least true to life in the world of chicken production.

Motherhubbard, yes thanks, I thought it was an interesting read, I'll have to read more about chickens, becoming quite interested in the little fellows.

Edit: Arggghhh, we need more votes for the "no thanks, not under those conditions" option. Every time I look someone else votes for the other option, come on Litnet, hear what I'm sayin'.

[*Classic*Charm*]

Neely, I haven't watched your video, but being very familiar with correct chicken slaughter procedures, as well as having seen videos of the crazy crap that goes on elsewhere, I don't think it's really necessary for my argument.

I'll start by saying that I have a problem with a lot of documentaries/ slaughter footage because most people don't actually know what they're watching. Yes, if you don't know what you're seeing, it's going to look horrible and gruesome. And I think that this is a huge problem with the meat industry today- for so long, slaughter has been covered up because it's kind of gross, so people don't really know how it works. As odd as this sounds, the industry needs to open its doors and educate people about what they're doing. The slaughter procedures that are currently in place across Europe and North America (I'm less familiar with other areas so I won't make any statements there) have been established as being those that are the least stressful for the animal. Someone might see various pieces of footage that look like things they aren't and it leads them to draw very biased and uneducated conclusions (I'm not implying anyone in particular here).

As for the farming side of things, I think it's unfair to say that how we keep animals is just abuse. I'm certainly not saying that everything is perfect- it absolutely is not, but one needs to understand the reasons behind why we do the things we do. There is a ton of research behind farming chickens, in terms of nutrition, physiology, and behaviour, and extensive amounts of money are put into farming systems. Farming is their livelihood- it simply doesn't make sense for them to treat their animals like crap. In fact, the farmers I have encountered often have far more respect for the animals than those who consume them.

The housing arrangements for broiler chickens (meat birds) are not arbitrary. Extensive research has gone into establishing space requirements, cage materials, flooring type, temperature constraints, grouping arrangements, and feeding protocols. All of these things have to be weighed against welfare concerns and the fact that while animals are involved, it is still a business and must be conducted as such. Again- there are a lot of considerations that the general public are not aware of, and that is why I put it to everyone to find out if the alternative you have in mind is really a "much fairer, healthier system".

I absolutely hear what you're saying, Neely. There certainly are issues with many aspects of animal farming, but to assume that overstocking and incorrect slaughtering are the rule is not fair.

As to the question of Halal meat (and other forms of ritual slaughter), the main premise behind Halal slaughter regarding animal welfare is that the animal is not rendered unconscious before being killed. This follows the belief that the animal should feel as little pain as possible while being killed. In all other standard slaughter procedures, the animal is unconscious so it doesn't feel pain when it is killed. The Halal procedure believes that incorrect application of unconsciousness is more painful to the animal than the actual slaughter.

Personally, I don't agree with this. The majority of procedures to render the animal unconscious go directly as planned, whether it be captive bolt stunning or application of a gas. I don't agree that every animal should be made to suffer the pain of slaughter in order to save the few that aren't stunned properly.


Sorry, one more add on! haha. Just wanted to mention that in a lot of places, a free range system for breeding and/or keeping broilers is simply not an option. There would be an enormous number of deaths as when a hen's clutch hatches, her chicks are at serious risk if they are not exposed to heat and protection from other birds. Chicks will die if they are cold. There's no question of that, and if you're keeping your hens free range, there's no temperature control. Also, there's the chance that other hens will see the chicks as competition and kill them. This is all a little impractical, though, as broilers don't actually roost their eggs. As soon as the hen lays a fertilized egg, it's removed, and the eggs are all maintained mechanically until hatching.

As for raising broilers that will be going to slaughter, these birds go through three "stages" of growth, during which they will usually eat three different diets in order to maximize their growth and allow for some cost efficiency for the producer. It is in their best interest to be housed within these three age groups so as to allow them best access to/use of feed. Chickens prefer small group sizes as it decreases stress and aggression, and again, they require access to heat as they grow. Not only to they need heat, but inconsistencies in temperature are also stressful for the animal. Outdoor temperature fluctuations are detrimental to the animal's development. In this case, some sort of indoor penning system is the best option.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Hello, well the video link did contain slaughter but that was not my point or intention. I also have a problem with a lot of videos from various different groups because they often have some other greater agenda. However, my only point of objection and the point I was trying to get across lies with the intensively farmed system which is used to meet the demand of the vast majority of chicken sales nationally (and across Europe and the US and elsewhere) – the “normal” method of farming chicken. When it comes to supplying the vast majority of chicken in the UK it is thought that around 93% (HFW) comes from the intensively reared chicken, which I would still maintain is something akin to animal abuse considering that these birds are intensively fed under unnatural light for 23 hours a day and, during the later stages, are kept in extremely cramped conditions (19 birds per sq metre) as well as having to continually sit in their own faeces. When you add to this the fact that in some places the birds are subject to hormone injections and god knows what else in order to increase yield then yes I have a problem with this set-up and can only see free range or the in-between method; that is more space, natural light but kept indoors, as the only fair system(s) of production.

I totally agree with you that it is unfair to blame the farming methods on individual farmers (or to put them all into one category) because it seems clear to me that pressures from the supermarkets is the main cause here. This is an over-simplification true, because supermarkets are very quick to play the “it’s what the customer demands card” and therefore putting the emphasis back onto the consumer in a vicious circle. Things can change though public pressures, though knowledge and understanding as we have seen in the sale of free range eggs in the UK which I believe is around 50/50 of sales (other thread). The problem with supermarkets Vs supply is that we have a monopoly of supermarkets in this country, and I’m sure it is similar elsewhere, which is having the effect of forcing the price so low that many producers are under extreme pressures, even going out of business, due to unfair price demands. The supermarkets have already just about ruined the dairy industry in this country and are doing the same in other areas of production.

Anyway, I realise that it is a more complex issue in switching totally to the free range option immediately, but where there is a knowledgeable consumer demand the market will open up for this method of production as in the example with the free range egg sales – where there is a demand there is a market, as economists are always saying. As with the other thread (which I have not replied as of yet but I intend to) I’m not suggesting that we let the animals fend for themselves without control, instead merely that they have access to natural light, a greater degree of space and if possible the freedom to roam and live as naturally as possible, feeding on natural food. As you say chickens prefer smaller group sizes which is why I favour small set-ups and I would question the “doabilty” of free range on a large scale anyway. However, we are a long way from even facing these issues because free range chicken sales in this country is currently as low as 5-7% of all chicken sales which is pretty pathetic. My main point is that intensively reared chicken is just not acceptable to me which is why I go out of my way to avoid it. What is clear however is that the set-up can change as in the example with egg production and the scraping of the caged system in the UK at least, so it does show that public pressure and demands can open up markets and have a huge impact of the conditions in which animals/food is produced. The problem as I see it is getting these issues out to the public and hoping that some of them will at least give a damn about it. This would be enough to get the ball rolling which in turn would make it easier and cheaper to get hold of free range meat which of course spirals the whole thing further. All of this is even without getting into the quality debate which for me is a big thing because I do not want to eat poor quality anything, I refuse, cheap simple food yes, poor quality rubbish, no.

Al-in-all I'm not saying it is a clear-cut matter, it is obviously more complex than just switching to free range which is not without problems, however for me this is the route which we should be taking because intensively reared production like the systems we have at the moment are just not acceptable.

[*Classic*Charm*]

When it comes to supplying the vast majority of chicken in the UK it is thought that around 93% (HFW) comes from the intensively reared chicken, which I would still maintain is something akin to animal abuse considering that these birds are intensively fed under unnatural light for 23 hours a day and, during the later stages, are kept in extremely cramped conditions (19 birds per sq metre) as well as having to continually sit in their own faeces. When you add to this the fact that in some places the birds are subject to hormone injections and god knows what else in order to increase yield then yes I have a problem with this set-up and can only see free range or the in-between method; that is more space, natural light but kept indoors, as the only fair system(s) of production.

I totally agree with you that it is unfair to blame the farming methods on individual farmers (or to put them all into one category) because it seems clear to me that pressures from the supermarkets is the main cause here. This is an over-simplification true, because supermarkets are very quick to play the “it’s what the customer demands card” and therefore putting the emphasis back onto the consumer in a vicious circle. Things can change though public pressures, though knowledge and understanding as we have seen in the sale of free range eggs in the UK which I believe is around 50/50 of sales (other thread). The problem with supermarkets Vs supply is that we have a monopoly of supermarkets in this country, and I’m sure it is similar elsewhere, which is having the effect of forcing the price so low that many producers are under extreme pressures, even going out of business, due to unfair price demands. The supermarkets have already just about ruined the dairy industry in this country and are doing the same in other areas of production.

Anyway, I realise that it is a more complex issue in switching totally to the free range option immediately, but where there is a knowledgeable consumer demand the market will open up for this method of production as in the example with the free range egg sales – where there is a demand there is a market, as economists are always saying. As with the other thread (which I have not replied as of yet but I intend to) I’m not suggesting that we let the animals fend for themselves without control, instead merely that they have access to natural light, a greater degree of space and if possible the freedom to roam and live as naturally as possible, feeding on natural food. As you say chickens prefer smaller group sizes which is why I favour small set-ups and I would question the “doabilty” of free range on a large scale anyway. However, we are a long way from even facing these issues because free range chicken sales in this country is currently as low as 5-7% of all chicken sales which is pretty pathetic. My main point is that intensively reared chicken is just not acceptable to me which is why I go out of my way to avoid it. What is clear however is that the set-up can change as in the example with egg production and the scraping of the caged system in the UK at least, so it does show that public pressure and demands can open up markets and have a huge impact of the conditions in which animals/food is produced. The problem as I see it is getting these issues out to the public and hoping that some of them will at least give a damn about it. This would be enough to get the ball rolling which in turn would make it easier and cheaper to get hold of free range meat which of course spirals the whole thing further. All of this is even without getting into the quality debate which for me is a big thing because I do not want to eat poor quality anything, I refuse, cheap simple food yes, poor quality rubbish, no.

Al-in-all I'm not saying it is a clear-cut matter, it is obviously more complex than just switching to free range which is not without problems, however for me this is the route which we should be taking because intensively reared production like the systems we have at the moment is just not acceptable.

I agree that battery cages are a terrible system, BUT:

-intensive feeding is not force feeding. The birds have been bred for an incredible growth potential and have a digestive system to support it. They don't suffer in eating huge amounts.
-battery cage flooring is wire mesh with some sort of tray below to catch the feces. Unless there's a buildup and very poor maintenance, the birds are not sitting in their own feces. Allowing this to happen is not in the best interests of the producer as they will lose money for filthy birds, so it's unlikely to happen.

There's something that needs to be clarified though- broilers are not raised in these cages. Broiler chickens (meat birds) are typically raised in barns, where yes, stocking density is a problem, and yes, sanitation can also be a problem. This is what is considered "intensive husbandry" in terms of meat birds. The housing system you describe in which the birds are kept a few to a cage with limited mobility are only laying birds.

Here are a couple articles for you:

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGAInfo/home/e.../part2/2_5.pdf
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/includes/docu...cages_1991.pdf

There are distinct differences in how laying chickens and meat chickens are kept, each with their own concerns for animal welfare. Battery cages are the system in which laying hens are kept that is being outlawed in the UK. Deep litter is the system of keeping broiler birds (and other bird species such as turkeys), and while improvements need to be made to this system as well, there will never be a switch to keeping broilers free range.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I agree that battery cages are a terrible system, BUT:

-intensive feeding is not force feeding. The birds have been bred for an incredible growth potential and have a digestive system to support it. They don't suffer in eating huge amounts.
-battery cage flooring is wire mesh with some sort of tray below to catch the feces. Unless there's a buildup and very poor maintenance, the birds are not sitting in their own feces. Allowing this to happen is not in the best interests of the producer as they will lose money for filthy birds, so it's unlikely to happen.

There's something that needs to be clarified though- broilers are not raised in these cages. Broiler chickens (meat birds) are typically raised in barns, where yes, stocking density is a problem, and yes, sanitation can also be a problem. This is what is considered "intensive husbandry" in terms of meat birds. The housing system you describe in which the birds are kept a few to a cage with limited mobility are only laying birds.

Here are a couple articles for you:

http://www.fao.org/ag/AGAInfo/home/e.../part2/2_5.pdf
http://www.ciwf.org.uk/includes/docu...cages_1991.pdf

There are distinct differences in how laying chickens and meat chickens are kept, each with their own concerns for animal welfare. Battery cages are the system in which laying hens are kept that is being outlawed in the UK. Deep litter is the system of keeping broiler birds (and other bird species such as turkeys), and while improvements need to be made to this system as well, there will never be a switch to keeping broilers free range.

Hi, yes I am totally aware that meat chickens are not reared in cages and are therefore marginally better off than caged egg producers. However the crammed conditions means that you can end up having around 19 birds per square metre which is almost as bad. I question the assumption that these birds don't have to sit in their own feces because in all the things I have read on this matter, and in the things I have seen, they are.

I will certainly read the links you gave (and will post stuff in return) and I once again thank you for bringing these threads up and opening up the debate, but I must go at present.

Cheers, Neely.

[LitNetIsGreat]

Here is the first of four of Hugh Fearnely-Whittingstall's outstanding documentaries on chicken production in the UK, Hugh's Chicken Run. This is must see viewing for anyone interested or uninterested in chicken production in the UK. Outstanding, must see, 5 star, oscar winning stuff, TV highlight of the decade...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6qr_jD2Og

[Paulclem]

Neely - are you actually him - Hugh Fearneley - Whittingstall? If you are he - then don't you think this self promotion has gone too far?

If you are not he... well sorry. I just wanted to check. I suspect you are not he, but you know - in the dark winter nights crouched over a monitor... you start to think odd things...

[LitNetIsGreat]

Ah, my cover of "Neely" has been uncovered. I was hoping that I could use his account to spam my self-promotion a little more so that I could get a few more fish votes (see blog 2). I must admit that the real Neely (the one you all love) is currently on a continental tour of Europe. I read recently that he demands Belgian Beer as part of his daily breakfast ritual and he insists in a grumpy Yorkshire accent, that it is served by several lusty tavern wenches. I believe he in some southern region of France or Italy and is reading lovely big thick books and basking in the sun. He also calls for nice people to play lovely piano for him while he sits back in a hammock and views the soft smiles of the Mediterranean. He is always drinking beer and Westons Organic Cider.

In the meantime he has left me in charge of his basil plants...

All the best,

Hugh. (Vote free range.)

[Paulclem]

Ah, my cover of "Neely" has been uncovered. I was hoping that I could use his account to spam my self-promotion a little more so that I could get a few more fish votes (see blog 2). I must admit that the real Neely (the one you all love) is currently on a continental tour of Europe. I read recently that he demands Belgian Beer as part of his daily breakfast ritual and he insists in a grumpy Yorkshire accent, that it is served by several lusty tavern wenches. I believe he in some southern region of France or Italy and is reading lovely big thick books and basking in the sun. He also calls for nice people to play lovely piano for him while he sits back in a hammock and views the soft smiles of the Mediterranean. He is always drinking beer and Westons Organic Cider.

In the meantime he has left me in charge of his basil plants...

All the best,

Hugh. (Vote free range.)

Welcome Hugh.