The Christian Hell

[andrew23]

any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair.

let us analyze.
first, when you create an imperfect world such as our universe, it is inevitable that some will go to heaven, and that some will go to heaven. god was aware of this, considering he's probably a trillion times wiser than we.

second. why still continue creating a universe such ours? indubitably, it is for one god's temporary entertainment. he laughs, and enjoys watching as we slaves walk towards our various, inevitable destiny.

the truth..
some were born to do good, some were born to do evil, yet all of us are slaves. we are behind--bars made of unimaginable energy, in chains of the unrelenting power of destiny. not in control of our lives, some optimistic men consoles us. "you have free will" he said. yet, at any point of time, not in control of the various forces that causes an effect, he confidently, ignorantly, and innocently lies to comfort himself. and this, this consolation, is just part of our destiny, our destiny, our struggle for survival.

lacking resources in our civilization, trying to find purpose, man desperately invents an effective and efficient way to fullfill his destiny, to survive. "Religion", covered by the veil of human ignorance, does the job for the mean time to aid our survival.

however, soon enough, we shall realize its weakness..
when lies have been forgotten,
and enlightenment has been made,
when one gets tired of this endless charade.

[skasian]

any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair.

let us analyze.
first, when you create an imperfect world such as our universe, it is inevitable that some will go to heaven, and that some will go to heaven. god was aware of this, considering he's probably a trillion times wiser than we.

second. why still continue creating a universe such ours? indubitably, it is for one god's temporary entertainment. he laughs, and enjoys watching as we slaves walk towards our various, inevitable destiny.

the truth..
some were born to do good, some were born to do evil, yet all of us are slaves. we are behind--bars made of unimaginable energy, in chains of the unrelenting power of destiny. not in control of our lives, some optimistic men consoles us. "you have free will" he said. yet, at any point of time, not in control of the various forces that causes an effect, he confidently, ignorantly, and innocently lies to comfort himself. and this, this consolation, is just part of our destiny, our destiny, our struggle for survival.

lacking resources in our civilization, trying to find purpose, man desperately invents an effective and efficient way to fullfill his destiny, to survive. "Religion", covered by the veil of human ignorance, does the job for the mean time to aid our survival.

however, soon enough, we shall realize its weakness..
when lies have been forgotten,
and enlightenment has been made,
when one gets tired of this endless charade.

Recall your central idea "any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair."

You say a test, and test is an experiment or an act to determine the quality or performance of the subjects' functions. Our test of life exists with resources that will help us excel in life and gain entry to Heaven. Our function: to serve and follow the Words of God. The resources: The bible and the connection we can have with God by prayer. As the answer is right in front of us, it is certainly NOT unfair that some goes to heaven while the others dont.

And no. People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good. Human are born equally in terms of morality. Human are all born neutral from the start, ie infants are blind from morality. It is their responsibility while they mature to sway closer to God or to devils that will make them act good or bad.

People who follow religion in general may be faulty as they are still human however their gods are flawless and they are pure of imperfections. As religion is a dedication for them, religion should not be rebuked or depraved as gods should not be held against.

As this thread is specified with Christianity, let us further discuss only Christianity and not religion in general.

[andrew23]

Recall your central idea "any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair."

You say a test, and test is an experiment or an act to determine the quality or performance of the subjects' functions. Our test of life exists with resources that will help us excel in life and gain entry to Heaven. Our function: to serve and follow the Words of God. The resources: The bible and the connection we can have with God by prayer. As the answer is right in front of us, it is certainly NOT unfair that some goes to heaven while the others dont.

And no. People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good. Human are born equally in terms of morality. Human are all born neutral from the start, ie infants are blind from morality. It is their responsibility while they mature to sway closer to God or to devils that will make them act good or bad.

People who follow religion in general may be faulty as they are still human however their gods are flawless and they are pure of imperfections. As religion is a dedication for them, religion should not be rebuked or depraved as gods should not be held against.

As this thread is specified with Christianity, let us further discuss only Christianity and not religion in general.

Yes, and after this eerie test, the innocent defective ones, which God knew to be doomed from the start, were destined for eternal damnation.

Stating the meaning of "test", and your seemingly random words hasn't justify any of my propositions so far. And yes, human are born equally in terms of morality, as everyone starts from zero action. however their morality in the future --their actions and thoughts are out of hand, but rather enslaved to the chains of destiny.

Your bold yet unwitting statement "People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good." lacks more workable rationale.

However I on the other hand can present to you simple, yet easily fathomable facts that are relevant and logically justifies my propositions unlike your logical fallacies which I have encountered innumerable times in my lifetime.


-At any point of time, every effect has a cause.
-At any point of time, the cause of an effect is not under the control of man, nor god(less god itself is the universe, or he controls the universe), but is rather due to various interconnected forces from the entire universe.
-At any point of time, the actions and thoughts of man is determined by his genes, environment, the people affecting him, the time, the structure of his civilization, the value of gravity, blablabla, etc. -- all of which he was never ever under control during any point of time.

You said "Our function: to serve and follow the Words of God."
But actually, our main function is "to survive, and repoduce better surviving men". Along the way, to help the survival of men, religion was just invented for temporary consolation and aid. Apparently, we're already seeing the cons of religion.
-people not following the laws of their religion
-segregation (instead of unification)
-ignorance (some people are torturing and killing themselves)

And as you said "religion should not be rebuked or depraved as gods should not be held against." Quite frankly, I believe that's true, not because its logical in terms of truth, but because it's logical and beneficial when we speak for survival. In our present civilization, with our primitive form of technology and politics (compared to the future ofcourse) we are not ready yet to abandon religion. Religion as of now, is effective and efficient enought to aid survival.

You said "As this thread is specified with Christianity, let us further discuss only Christianity and not religion in general". I'm sorry I cannot help but to discuss religion in general, as most religion is similar to the form of christianity. And all of them are theistic in nature. But I guess you have a point, Christian hell is like fires and lavas, while Muslim hell is like scimitars and blades. hehe

[The Atheist]

Your assumption is proved wrong, there are books that provides as fact that Jesus did live. Google and you get some.

No.

It's not an assumption of mine, it's a piece of knowledge I have that there is not one peice of contemporary literature which mentions Jesus Christ in any way other than the bible.

Far from Google, this is a subject I have been involved with for thirty years.

If you believe there is any historical record of Jesus, could you please let me know as I know a large number of historians and theologians who will be delighted by the news.

Nope. No possible way. He suicided.

Stalin then. He died of nice, natural causes and was another childhood theist. Mao, Pol Pot, any despot, is able to beg forgiveness before death and will be received in your heaven.

It's rather like, pick a colour which you prefer and go with that.

Which is precisely why various christian sects have various visions of Hell, ranging from the liberal "nothing" to the fundie Hell which is based entirely on Dante's.

The ones I'm interested in hearing from are the ones whose Hell is Dante's.

So there is hope for getting out of this horrible place, but the only hope is through God.

Thanks.

If Christianity is true, that means God is insane, because only an insane father would torture his kids for all eternity just because they didn't believe some book a bossy person told them was from Him.

That's why Dante's Hell is a minority concept in christianity since the late 20th century. The vast majority of the world's christians are Roman Catholics and they gave it up years ago. To them, Hell is simply non-existence.

[skasian]

No.

It's not an assumption of mine, it's a piece of knowledge I have that there is not one peice of contemporary literature which mentions Jesus Christ in any way other than the bible.

Far from Google, this is a subject I have been involved with for thirty years.

If you believe there is any historical record of Jesus, could you please let me know as I know a large number of historians and theologians who will be delighted by the news.



Stalin then. He died of nice, natural causes and was another childhood theist. Mao, Pol Pot, any despot, is able to beg forgiveness before death and will be received in your heaven.

http://www.biblehistory.net/ heres a site that mentions books that prove the life of Jesus.

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Dynasty-.../dp/0743287231 This is certainly a book about his "hidden" life.

Obviously there are books that are dedicated on Jesus's life, all you need to do is GOOGLE.

It depends on how God weighs their confessions of their sins in the last minute of their life and it is doubtful that God will accept them as confession on the last minute of their lives may not cover for all their sins done at their life time. An acceptable confession takes time, and it depends on how much heart you put into the prayer. It is up to God who can go to heaven or hell, not us.

[The Atheist]

Obviously there are books that are dedicated on Jesus's life, all you need to do is GOOGLE.

Nope, sorry, but you're so far wrong I find it hard to credit.

Your faith in Google is no doubt excellent news for Messrs Page & Brin, but it has nothing to do with any kind of proof.

Unfortunately, the sites you link to are no use to me, being nothing but blind assertion and based upon the bible, i.e. the same as all other religious historical sites. You may not have understood the reference I made to "contemporary". That means historical records from the time of Jesus.

There are none, apart from the bible.

I suggest you check this out with your pastor if you don't want to believe me, but it is factual that no contemporary historical evidence exists. I can guarantee you that if some were to turn up at this late stage, it would be the most earth-shattering news of the century.

[skasian]

Yes, and after this eerie test, the innocent defective ones, which God knew to be doomed from the start, were destined for eternal damnation.

Stating the meaning of "test", and your seemingly random words hasn't justify any of my propositions so far. And yes, human are born equally in terms of morality, as everyone starts from zero action. however their morality in the future --their actions and thoughts are out of hand, but rather enslaved to the chains of destiny.

Your bold yet unwitting statement "People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good." lacks more workable rationale.

However I on the other hand can present to you simple, yet easily fathomable facts that are relevant and logically justifies my propositions unlike your logical fallacies which I have encountered innumerable times in my lifetime.


-At any point of time, every effect has a cause.
-At any point of time, the cause of an effect is not under the control of man, nor god(less god itself is the universe, or he controls the universe), but is rather due to various interconnected forces from the entire universe.
-At any point of time, the actions and thoughts of man is determined by his genes, environment, the people affecting him, the time, the structure of his civilization, the value of gravity, blablabla, etc. -- all of which he was never ever under control during any point of time.

You said "Our function: to serve and follow the Words of God."
But actually, our main function is "to survive, and repoduce better surviving men". Along the way, to help the survival of men, religion was just invented for temporary consolation and aid. Apparently, we're already seeing the cons of religion.
-people not following the laws of their religion
-segregation (instead of unification)
-ignorance (some people are torturing and killing themselves)

And as you said "religion should not be rebuked or depraved as gods should not be held against." Quite frankly, I believe that's true, not because its logical in terms of truth, but because it's logical and beneficial when we speak for survival. In our present civilization, with our primitive form of technology and politics (compared to the future ofcourse) we are not ready yet to abandon religion. Religion as of now, is effective and efficient enought to aid survival.

You said "As this thread is specified with Christianity, let us further discuss only Christianity and not religion in general". I'm sorry I cannot help but to discuss religion in general, as most religion is similar to the form of christianity. And all of them are theistic in nature. But I guess you have a point, Christian hell is like fires and lavas, while Muslim hell is like scimitars and blades. hehe

I assume that you have not read my post carefully. I have justified that your view that the "test" of entering heaven as unfair is incorrect and that for us, the test is fair in any way.
God indeed know whether an unborn infant will end up in heaven or hell but God is irresponsible for the result as the infant will come upon any opportunity to accept God into their life which will prevent them from going to hell. For example, you have the knowledge that believing in God and accepting Him as your God will earn you a place in His Kingdom. However as you are incredulous, and prefer your own ways, you have repudiated God and the chance to go to Heaven. Its your choice 100%, and for that it is not "unfair" that you may not enter Heaven.

Mankind are not enslaved by their own destiny. We make them, as every decision in our lives depends on our choice. Even though God may know the outcomes, He does not want us to be robots, and rather intends to give us free choices in life. God is wanting us to accept Him into our lives and enter His Kingdom as rightful childrens. Its our ignorance towards Him that leaves ourselves in Hell. Simple as that.

Please forgive the statement "People are not born to do evil while some are born to do good." I was intending to say "people are not born to do evil but to do good." Strange result I must admit.

And your assumptions that are based with "time" suggests the life time in earth, and the power of mankind. Let me discuss that God governs time and that nothing is impossible to Him. When a man is with God, then he is not the man of the world even though he may be a man in and from the world. What I am implying is that when someone is with God therefore accepts Him as their one and only God, a man becomes man of God, not of the world. See now the world is wicked and its state of abhorrence and terror is aggravating. When a person is with God, he or she will gain His protection, His love, and His salvation, promoting good in the world as well as serving Him.
The central idea is that a religious person will not be the same as the physical world, as they will have a spirit that others dont possess. So what ever man of the world will have against a spirit that loves God, nothing can withstand as a religious spirit is more powerful and pure than any other in the world.

To a religious eye, the spiritual function is "to serve and follow the Words of God."
To a biological eye, the physical function is "to survive, and reproduce better surviving men". As science and religion are not the same thing, there are separate functions for mankind.
Through the biological eye, survival may still apply in the third world countries, however for the rest,currently it is being and possessing the palmary that is the main function.

Now let me point out that religion and the followers of religion are different. Religion is system dedicated to god(s) that are immaculate in their holiness,purity and goodness. The followers of religion are mankind that serves the god in a particular religion and as they are mankind, they are sometimes unholy, suffer from impurity and turn away from their god to act evil deeds. It is incorrect that religion has cons, it is the follower of religion that demonstrate cons and acts that are recognised as shame to their religion.

Why dont you make a separate thread for discussing religious aspects you like to cover, because Christianity is not the only religion and there are a range of users that believe in different religions that can also input in your discussion.

[skasian]

Nope, sorry, but you're so far wrong I find it hard to credit.

Your faith in Google is no doubt excellent news for Messrs Page & Brin, but it has nothing to do with any kind of proof.

Unfortunately, the sites you link to are no use to me, being nothing but blind assertion and based upon the bible, i.e. the same as all other religious historical sites. You may not have understood the reference I made to "contemporary". That means historical records from the time of Jesus.

There are none, apart from the bible.

I suggest you check this out with your pastor if you don't want to believe me, but it is factual that no contemporary historical evidence exists. I can guarantee you that if some were to turn up at this late stage, it would be the most earth-shattering news of the century.

http://www.religionfacts.com/christi...tory/jesus.htm
Sources on the Life of Jesus
The earliest available records of the life of Jesus are the four Gospel narratives, which were written by Jesus' followers within a few decades of his death. A handful of other sources from the first and the second centuries, including Christian, Roman, Jewish, and Gnostic sources, also mention Jesus.

What is this handful of other sources from 1st and 2nd centuries? I have no knowledge in any other sources about Jesus other than the bible, but I do not need written "proof" that He existed, because belief comes from the spirit, and written proof cannot turn the atheist to a Christian unless the Holy Spirit helps you so. Thank you for a spiritual refreshment, I have reminded myself that even though there may be limited written sources of the life of Jesus, the Holy Spirit that acts to move people to spread the Word of Jesus through generations is almighty.

[Maletbon]

Time is the problem.

Linear time as we experience it – that is, in our Christian case – first sin then punishment, only happens when space moves. If nothing moved there would be no time.

Since we now realize that God isn't sitting up in the clouds with the angels, our conception of God is that He exists outside the universe, in a godlike spiritual dimension. Not in space. Therefore not in time.

So when He creates somebody He already knows is doomed to eternal torment, He takes no responsibility for that?

Must be nice to be God. No responsibility and all.

[Zee.]

I am a devoted Christian, and I have been asked similar questions about hell by many atheists or people that are interested in becoming a Christian.
We believe that hell exists as a realm that is inexplicable in terms of eternal suffering, pain and agony and because there is no sense of time or space, there is no way out forever. Hell is governed by satan and devils and they inflict abhorrent terrors unimaginable.
Now many people have asked the question who goes to Hell and why do people go there when God does cherish each and every one of us, and how come good people in the world that dedicate their life for other people can also go to hell.
The answer is that they do not have belief and faith in God, Jesus.
No matter how many good deeds you do in life, if you do not confess Jesus as your God then you go to Hell. Harsh, but true.
In order to be saved from hell, theres only one way, and that is Jesus once again. Jesus is the bridge between our world and Heaven, and without Him, you may not enter Heaven.
I know that God hates to see that His children have to suffer in Hell forever, but the ones that do not know him and love Him must be punished eternally.
I have been thinking about the people in the world, the ones that it is not their fault that they do not know God. I wondered what will happen to them. I thought it was not fair for them to miss out the good news about Jesus and how He can be their salvation. But it is evident in the Bible that it is us, Christians' duty to spread the good news about Jesus to these people that never heard about Him. I am still not sure what will happen to those people who it isnt their fault that they do not know Him, but one thing I am sure is that we must spread the Word about God.
Then it is up to them to whether to have faith with him and begin to have the greatest relationship with Him which will change their lives forever. See the love of God. See the glory of God. See how we are priceless in the eyes of the Lord. From then on, they will begin to get closer to God, and get closer to the His Kingdom where they will serve and share the joy together with God.

That's got to be about the biggest piece of bull**** i've ever read.

That right there - that's scare tactics. Fear.

Yes when us non believers die we all go to dance with the devil in hell for all of eternity forever and ever and ever.

See that belief, which not all christians hold is insanely flawed and does not make sense of much at all.

Maybe your hell is my heaven.

[Zee.]

any god who creates a universe, and decides to make a test, which will either have you end up in heaven or hell, is unfair.

let us analyze.
first, when you create an imperfect world such as our universe, it is inevitable that some will go to heaven, and that some will go to heaven. god was aware of this, considering he's probably a trillion times wiser than we.

second. why still continue creating a universe such ours? indubitably, it is for one god's temporary entertainment. he laughs, and enjoys watching as we slaves walk towards our various, inevitable destiny.

the truth..
some were born to do good, some were born to do evil, yet all of us are slaves. we are behind--bars made of unimaginable energy, in chains of the unrelenting power of destiny. not in control of our lives, some optimistic men consoles us. "you have free will" he said. yet, at any point of time, not in control of the various forces that causes an effect, he confidently, ignorantly, and innocently lies to comfort himself. and this, this consolation, is just part of our destiny, our destiny, our struggle for survival.

lacking resources in our civilization, trying to find purpose, man desperately invents an effective and efficient way to fullfill his destiny, to survive. "Religion", covered by the veil of human ignorance, does the job for the mean time to aid our survival.

however, soon enough, we shall realize its weakness..
when lies have been forgotten,
and enlightenment has been made,
when one gets tired of this endless charade.

Look here's my belief, whatever this higher power may be, he has no more involvement with us beyond our creation. Why? because we have free will. We choose to live our life how we wish and the consequences are a result of our doing. Nothing more nothing less.

Coming from a buddhist family, there is no "god" there is only our goal to reach enlightenment.

[Zee.]

I dont doubt Jesus existed either. Let me make that clear.
But i don't believe he was the son of anything "almighty". He seemed to have been kind, a good man - but nothing can prove he was anything more.

[Maletbon]

Why dont you make a separate thread for discussing religious aspects you like to cover....

You must really be an idealist if you thought that a thread called Christian Hell would not provoke discussions on belief. Here is a quote describing Hell from the renowned American preacher Jonathan Edwards:

It is everlasting wrath. It would be dreadful to suffer this fierceness and wrath of Almighty God one moment; but you must suffer it to all eternity. There will be no end to this exquisite horrible misery. When you look forward, you shall see a long forever, a boundless duration before you, which will swallow up your thoughts, and amaze your soul; and you will absolutely despair of ever having any deliverance, any end, any mitigation, any rest at all. You will know certainly that you must wear out long ages, millions of millions of ages, in wrestling and conflicting with this almighty merciless vengeance; and then when you have so done, when so many ages have actually been spent by you in this manner, you will know that all is but a point to what remains. So that your punishment will indeed be infinite. Oh, who can express what the state of a soul in such circumstances is! All that we can possibly say about it, gives but a very feeble, faint representation of it; it is inexpressible and inconceivable: For "who knows the power of God's anger?"

All this because somebody doesn't believe some silly old book? I think you're wrong to say that no one suffers from religion. If you are right, only people who agree with you will avoid the most horrible fate imaginible in the mind of man. And you're okay with that? Christians think their religion is good but don't realize it's only good for them.

Also, fyi, I am a believer in God, however my God loves everybody, not just those who agree with you. And if you say God loves everybody but tortures some of them anyway, then I don't see any point in continuing in this quasi-logical vein.

[Zee.]

Skasian. Not everyone holds your beliefs, the way you're going about them is forceful and off putting. You don't have all the answers, you never will. Stop speaking as if you know that everything you're saying is fact. For all you know, your next stop might be the devil's door.

[The Atheist]

What is this handful of other sources from 1st and 2nd centuries? I have no knowledge in any other sources about Jesus other than the bible, ...

I'm not too bothered by any kind of "proof" either, but I don't like fallacies of any kind being promoted. Your faith is your affair.