Valentine's Day Reading: A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens

[manolia]

Yeah, I was saying something about Dickens' appreciation for individuality. The mob destroys that, and that may have been what made Dickens wince.

Yep that was clear enough. But what i meant is that how we experience our individuality (or merely whether we are able to have any individuality at all) depends up to a certain point on the political system and how society works. In a strict dictatorship, you aren't allowed to have any individuality. That's why i asked about the "apolitical" part..but anyway, this has little to do with the book

[Quark]

Yep that was clear enough. But what i meant is that how we experience our individuality (or merely whether we are able to have any individuality at all) depends up to a certain point on the political system and how society works. In a strict dictatorship, you aren't allowed to have any individuality. That's why i asked about the "apolitical" part..but anyway, this has little to do with the book

I don't know. I think Dickens was referring more to a person's particularly quirks or their secret desires and memories rather than to their ability to participate in political decisions. Yeah, I suppose autocratic government do place limits on expression. But, I don't think that repression would eliminate the individuality that Dickens' is talking about--although it may silence it's voice and curb it's effect on policy.

Sticking to the novel, though, I think the characterization of the wine scavengers comes more directly from Dickens' antipathy for the mob than for the politics of the mob, or even the actions of the mob. The unappealing and somewhat threatening view we get of the mob wouldn't vary if they were Royalist or Jacobins. And, it doesn't change even if the mob is peaceful as opposed to violent.

[Janine]

Hi everyone, Ok, I have been reading most of your posts, trying to catch up and get my footing again. I realise I have been somewhat behind, on some aspects that were presented prior to this discussion, on the mob and the spilled wine scene. I like what Alexei said in her prior post:

Quote by Alexei,

Yes, you are right, it's exactly like resurrection for him.
I keep thinking though that the two scenes in the beginning with the spilled wine has something to de with this theme too. I think it is because of the blood that it symbolized. I think it is the blood that is shed before the resurrection of Dr. Manette.More or less I think that resurrection and blood are usually close as symbols in literature.

Therefore, in considering this idea and this theme throughout the story, I think that this wine spilling scene has several aspects and is a very significant part of the 'forshadowing' of the novel's conclusion. The 'wine and blood' is often used in novels to represent the religious symbol of holy communion and the forgiveness of sins, as Alexei has pointed out. I think that by presenting it here in this way, we definitely see the marriage of the two elements as that symbol of resurrection. In the scene of the mob devouring the spilled wine (spilled blood of Christ?) we also see the man scrawling on the wall the word 'Blood' - therefore the two very important images - both red - are presented in our mind's perception and we tend to relate to the Last Supper and the idea of resurrection that will follow. I think Dickens very intentionally, set this scene up this way to imply this idea. It is quite brilliant writing. Also, the reference to Christ himself when Carton thinks the lines from the bible "I am the resurrection and the light" - Christ's very own words to the common people, is presented at the end of the novel, through Carton. Only with death and the spilling of blood, can resurrection occur.

Now I would like to go back to the opening lines of the story again. I posted them already so I will just post this commentary from the Spark's Notes:

These famous lines, which open A Tale of Two Cities, hint at the novel's central tension between love and family, on the one hand, and the oppression and hatred, on the other. The passage makes marked use of anaphora, the repetition of a phrase at the beginning of consecutive clauses --for example, "it was the age....it was the age" and "it was the epoch....it was the epoch...."This technique, along with the passage's steady rhythm, suggests that good and evil, wisdom and folly, and light and darkness stand equally matched in their struggle. The opposing pairs in this passage also intitiate one of the novel's most prominenet motifs and structural figures --that of doubles, including London and Paris, Sidney Carton and Charles Darney, Misss Pross and Madame Defarge, and Lucie and Madame Defarge.

[Janine]

Hello, where is everybody hiding? I was hoping to keep this thread on page one. So I will post a few times to bring it back up if necessary. Post when you all can.

[Alexei]

Hi! I am back and soon I will join the discussion again, I need a few days to read everything you've written.

[Janine]

Hi! I am back and soon I will join the discussion again, I need a few days to read everything you've written.

Hi Alexei, Hope you had a fun time. Egypt sounded so neat. Did you see the pyramids? Glad you are back. The discussion is at a sort of lull for now but of course, that does not mean much. As we said we can all post at random. I have not devoted enough time, myself to this thread, getting more involved in the Lawrence and Chekhov short stories of late. That would be just great if you were to review the threads and post some comments. I still need to read this other commentary to see what new ideas on the story I can come up with.

On idea that has now become evident to me is something in this commentary book about the correlation between Tellson's bank and the French prison. It seems in both instances, young men enter and grow old, so that both are like a prison of sorts. I will expound on this idea more, when I can - hopefully tonight or tomorrow. I thought it was an interesting thought. Also, the fact that Jarvis Lorry and Miss Pross act as surrogate parents for Lucy, since she has hardly known any parents in her life, up until her father is 'restored to life'. They both take over as parents with a sense of protectiveness which is quite endearing.

Ok, more on this later...I have to go and check my other busy threads for now.

Again - welcome back, Alexei Glad to have you in this discussion.

[manolia]

Popping my head to say hi to all and a warm welcome back to Alexei (I hope you had a great time ). Unfortunately i am quite busy lately but i'll come back as soon as i can

[Janine]

Popping my head to say hi to all and a warm welcome back to Alexei (I hope you had a great time ). Unfortunately i am quite busy lately but i'll come back as soon as i can

Hi manolia, glad you made an appearance and I can well understand the word 'busy' - same here!!! It is good you posted, since it brings the page back up onto my first page. We don't want to forget it exists, right?
Anyway, I have (two nights ago) been reading a commentary on TOTC, that I had printed out awhile ago (and was meaning to read). I am finding it quite interesting in some new ideas. However, I shifted gears again (last night) and was trying to continue my listening to an audio MP3 file of "Women in Love" - manolia, you would love these CD's. It is odd, but I am actually picking up things about the WIL text, that I had not noticed before, by listening to this great narration. I wish this narrator also read "The Rainbow", because I think I would invest in her CD set, and listen to the book instead of re-read it. I will have to look into it. When you have the time to, PM me and tell me when you think we should read the book - TR - and discuss it. I am in no hurry myself, being involved in 3 short story discussion presently and then in May, or sooner, I expect my first grandchild.
So here is where I stand with this thread (sorry to run off-topic). I will keep reading this commentary and then post something concrete and no doubt 'new', when I can find the time, hopefully in the next week.
keeping this thread going!

[manolia]

On idea that has now become evident to me is something in this commentary book about the correlation between Tellson's bank and the French prison. It seems in both instances, young men enter and grow old, so that both are like a prison of sorts. I will expound on this idea more, when I can - hopefully tonight or tomorrow. I thought it was an interesting thought. Also, the fact that Jarvis Lorry and Miss Pross act as surrogate parents for Lucy, since she has hardly known any parents in her life, up until her father is 'restored to life'. They both take over as parents with a sense of protectiveness which is quite endearing.

Hi Janine!
That sounds interesting. Indeed! The description of Tellson's bank and employees is one of the funniest aspects of the book. It reminded me (the bank) of a sketch - comment on society, how it was in those days. How nothing ever changes (like the bank, which is always the same old bank, with the same old employees and despite the fact that bussiness is flourishing and the owners are prosperous noone cares for a change in scenery). Think about it. This bank is in London and is always the same, like the society surrounding it. No changes of personel, no changes in the building which is always dirty and is slowly decaying.

Now the bank in France is described as a quite different place, is it not? A better building, modern etc. It signifies change and reform, does it not? (ok, i am an engineer and i always find significance in building descriptions ).

Hi manolia, glad you made an appearance and I can well understand the word 'busy' - same here!!! It is good you posted, since it brings the page back up onto my first page. We don't want to forget it exists, right?
Anyway, I have (two nights ago) been reading a commentary on TOTC, that I had printed out awhile ago (and was meaning to read). I am finding it quite interesting in some new ideas. However, I shifted gears again (last night) and was trying to continue my listening to an audio MP3 file of "Women in Love" - manolia, you would love these CD's. It is odd, but I am actually picking up things about the WIL text, that I had not noticed before, by listening to this great narration. I wish this narrator also read "The Rainbow", because I think I would invest in her CD set, and listen to the book instead of re-read it. I will have to look into it. When you have the time to, PM me and tell me when you think we should read the book - TR - and discuss it. I am in no hurry myself, being involved in 3 short story discussion presently and then in May, or sooner, I expect my first grandchild.
So here is where I stand with this thread (sorry to run off-topic). I will keep reading this commentary and then post something concrete and no doubt 'new', when I can find the time, hopefully in the next week.
keeping this thread going!

Congrats Janine. You must be so happy about your grandchild. I hope everything goes as you wish
As for the rainbow, i am ready when you guys are ready. In fact i can start as soon as i finish the book i am currently reading (In a week or two). So go on, pick a date and i'll follow

[Janine]

Hi Janine!
That sounds interesting. Indeed! The description of Tellson's bank and employees is one of the funniest aspects of the book. It reminded me (the bank) of a sketch - comment on society, how it was in those days. How nothing ever changes (like the bank, which is always the same old bank, with the same old employees and despite the fact that bussiness is flourishing and the owners are prosperous noone cares for a change in scenery). Think about it. This bank is in London and is always the same, like the society surrounding it. No changes of personel, no changes in the building which is always dirty and is slowly decaying.

Now the bank in France is described as a quite different place, is it not? A better building, modern etc. It signifies change and reform, does it not? (ok, i am an engineer and i always find significance in building descriptions ).

Hi manolia! Yes, with you being in an engineer, you would be interested in that aspect of the book and notice the differences in the two banks. I had not even noticed the mention of the French bank, but maybe since I read the entire book a few years ago and not recently and had just forgotten that part. The commentary notes point to the fact that the two institutions - the English bank and the French prison (The Bastille) have similarities. I think if I worked at Tellson's for as many years as poor Mr. Lorry had I too would think I was imprisoned. Now that you mention it - both of the places are stuck in time and decaying away. If you are caught inside you just wither, too. Both places the characters are in a sort of limbo state and never can progress onward with their lives.

I must correct myself here and say that the notes say that Miss Pross and Mr. Lorry act as fairy-godmother and fairy-godfather. I still think surrogate fits as well, or protector, since Lucie was left parentless. I felt in reading parts with both interacting that they seemed to form a sort of invisible bond and lent much warmth and humor to the story...Pross and Lorry. I liked the way Miss Pross would complain about all the visitors to Lucie (actually there was only Carton and Darney) and then Mr. Lorry would question her about it in a way that made it so funny. I think they worked like a comedy team at times, 'straight man, funny man' sort of device.

Congrats Janine. You must be so happy about your grandchild. I hope everything goes as you wish

Thanks! I thought I told you before. Remember, wasn't it you who thought of Lawrence names for the baby? Well, most likely (if the doctors are correct) I am expecting a grand-daughter and her name will be Brook Elise. Time is flying by and the date will be here soon. I am very happy and excited, too. Baby shower is the 30th of this month. What fun that will be!

As for the rainbow, i am ready when you guys are ready. In fact i can start as soon as i finish the book i am currently reading (In a week or two). So go on, pick a date and i'll follow

Ok, good, manolia, I will let you know. I don't think much is going to happen in the one SS book discussion on here, but the other two are on-going, monthly. I don't think I shall enter any novel discussions next month, but maybe we could start up TR then. Also, I will speak to Virgil about it and see if he would be ready soon. But do keep in mind, when we begin reading, I am a super slow reader and so is V, actually. Maybe we can take it slowly and again have no deadline. Do you think Alexei will participate? I think she read the book already. I can think of a few others, but they may be too busy with school and exams.

[manolia]

Thanks! I thought I told you before. Remember, wasn't it you who thought of Lawrence names for the baby? Well, most likely (if the doctors are correct) I am expecting a grand-daughter and her name will be Brook Elise. Time is flying by and the date will be here soon. I am very happy and excited, too. Baby shower is the 30th of this month. What fun that will be!

Hehe it was i indeed that suggested Lawrence names for the baby
Brook Elise is really nice

Ok, good, manolia, I will let you know. I don't think much is going to happen in the one SS book discussion on here, but the other two are on-going, monthly. I don't think I shall enter any novel discussions next month, but maybe we could start up TR then. Also, I will speak to Virgil about it and see if he would be ready soon. But do keep in mind, when we begin reading, I am a super slow reader and so is V, actually. Maybe we can take it slowly and again have no deadline. Do you think Alexei will participate? I think she read the book already. I can think of a few others, but they may be too busy with school and exams.

Hehe i know you both are slow readers..i am not very fast either
This time i won't personally invite anyone..lets start the thread when you two are ready and post a public invitation and everyone who sees it and feels like reading the book is welcome to join

[Janine]

Hehe it was i indeed that suggested Lawrence names for the baby
Brook Elise is really nice

It was you, right after I told you. I didn't think I was loosing my mind. Yes, I like the name now that they added Elise. I hope I am spelling that correctly.

Hehe i know you both are slow readers..i am not very fast either
This time i won't personally invite anyone..lets start the thread when you two are ready and post a public invitation and everyone who sees it and feels like reading the book is welcome to join

manolia, glad you accept us as slowpoke readers. I like to fully absorb what I read. I never skim a book, I would feel I was being cheated. I have to read every work, and I never read the last page first. Glad to hear you are not so speedy yourself. Now Alexei reads about 10 books by the time we read one, I think. She is stuns me. That is why I said "I think she already read it."
Sure, lets just post the thread for say, next month, and see who shows up. That should work out well. We might attract some newcomers, who knows. One thing is for certain, it will be another great Lawrence book discussion. I can't wait. Been years since I read "The Rainbow" and I only vaguely remember it. Also, I will understand so much more now; my perspectives have been broadened.

[Alexei]

Hi, once again. I am sorry I wasn't here these days, but I was busy in school.

I like the discussion on the name "Jacques". There is something that I can't ignore. I think it could be interpret as a symbol of equality, they have the same name, they are all equal, they are all the same. That brings me to the disutopian literature and here I have a hypothesis - I few years ago when we studied The French revolution we talked about it in comparison with the Renaissance and the idea was that in France there is revolution because there is no Renaissance. I know that when it is in one sentence it seems a bit strange, but actually there is some sense in it, because there are some results that make this comparison probable. The first example is the people - if you open Decameron you will see that there are some "scenes" that are as decadent as some after the Revolution. So, the resemblance with the Renaissance, got me once again round the idea of utopia, after the revolution wants a better and more fare government, so it is going for a kind of utopia too. So may be the name "Jacques" is used once to mark the idea of equality and better life in it and once again as the absurd of this equality that robes you of your own identity. Or may be it is another long shot?

As for the L's coming discussion on TR I would like to participate, but I am not sure if I will be able to. I can start, but then there will be a period in which I would be out of my country and without a computer, so I can't be here for the whole discussion and who knows if I will be able to catch up? I will try to come up with something, but I doubt I will be able to

I didn't know there is a discussion on Aeneid, I wanted to join it, but may be the next time I am interested in the Chekhov thread too, so could you tell me when you start another story, please?

[Janine]

Hi, once again. I am sorry I wasn't here these days, but I was busy in school.

Alexei, it is ok. I can well understand. School must come first. I commend you on all the participation you have achieved on Lit Net. I can't believe you can do so much, but then again, you are that rapid reader, I envy... I have been lagging somewhat lately anyway. I am still not feeling so very well; I seem not to be able to fully shake off this cold I have had the last month or so. I am in super-slow mode so you must put up with me as well - that applies to all of you. I have not abandoned this thread, just put it on hold for now.

I like the discussion on the name "Jacques". There is something that I can't ignore. I think it could be interpret as a symbol of equality, they have the same name, they are all equal, they are all the same. That brings me to the disutopian literature and here I have a hypothesis - I few years ago when we studied The French revolution we talked about it in comparison with the Renaissance and the idea was that in France there is revolution because there is no Renaissance. I know that when it is in one sentence it seems a bit strange, but actually there is some sense in it, because there are some results that make this comparison probable. The first example is the people - if you open Decameron you will see that there are some "scenes" that are as decadent as some after the Revolution. So, the resemblance with the Renaissance, got me once again round the idea of utopia, after the revolution wants a better and more fare government, so it is going for a kind of utopia too. So may be the name "Jacques" is used once to mark the idea of equality and better life in it and once again as the absurd of this equality that robes you of your own identity. Or may be it is another long shot?

I very much like this theory of yours, Alexei. It is a good comparison and observation. I wish I knew more about the other book on the Renaissance, however, I do get the general idea you are presenting here. I, too, have been quite interested in the use of the one name "Jacques" and was wondering when someone would bring up the subject in greater depth. I think it is an irony here in this novel that "Jacques is used to mark the idea of equality/better life and then it also robes one of their individual identity and they become part of the mob. This becomes the mob mentality - this absurd equality. I did not think your theories on this at all a long shot. They are quite plausible and we can discuss them further. There is mention of them in both sets of notes I have so I will look this idea up and post more soon. Perhaps I will quote the books.

As for the L's coming discussion on TR I would like to participate, but I am not sure if I will be able to. I can start, but then there will be a period in which I would be out of my country and without a computer, so I can't be here for the whole discussion and who knows if I will be able to catch up? I will try to come up with something, but I doubt I will be able to

I can well understand that. Perhaps we can delay it a month, if you would be more available in May, instead of April. What do you think? And also, Manolia, could you hold off for another month; would you be awfully disappointed? I feel kind of pressured right now if we begin in April. There is so much going on in my family presently to prepare for the arrival of my grandchild. Also, I feel really tired out from this horrid flu/cold lingering and the damp/cold/windy weather we have been having here. I wish 'spring' would arrive soon, but it feels more like December here.

I didn't know there is a discussion on Aeneid, I wanted to join it, but may be the next time I am interested in the Chekhov thread too, so could you tell me when you start another story, please?

I did not even try to enter it. I have not read the book, long poem. I seem to have trouble comprehending long epic poems such as the Aeneid. Did you read it already, Alexei? I did look in on several posts and pages to see what was being written. It was quite interesting but I felt too lost to participate, plus I had enough to handle on this forum at that time. We all do have to make selections and choices and as you say, you can always pursue it later on your own.
The next two shorter Chekhov stories will begin the first of the next month I believe. Usually, Quark, will post something on the first story. I like to think I have helped him, to model the presentation after the Lawrence thread. I try also to post some photo or photos to get everyone interested. Quark is now participating in the Lawrence short story thread as well. We arranged it that way - I participate in his thread and he participates ours. It would be utterly great if you were to join us in the Chekhov thread. The stories are shorter and somewhat simplier than the Lawrence ones. You could fit them in more easily I would imagine. Hope to see you over there.

[Quark]

I like the discussion on the name "Jacques". There is something that I can't ignore. I think it could be interpret as a symbol of equality, they have the same name, they are all equal, they are all the same... So may be the name "Jacques" is used once to mark the idea of equality and better life in it and once again as the absurd of this equality that robes you of your own identity. Or may be it is another long shot?

Hey, Alexei. I hope your classes are going well. Your discussion of the French Revolution sounds interesting, and I like your comparison. Just as the Renaissance replaced the religious and intellectual dogma of the Middle Ages, the French Revolution tried to get rid of the monarchy and class divisions of 18th century France. Equality was one of the new virtues of this movement. Rosseau, one of the major writers associated with the French Revolution, believed that there is a "general will" which will naturally tend toward equality. In his view only the oppression of rulers or the corruption of society could divide people into classes. A reader of "A Tale of Two Cities" who is sympathetic to these ideas could view the Jacqueses as progress toward utopia. I think that reader would have to be quite a partisan to come to that conclusion, though. The way Dickens frames the Revolution and its Jacqueses is quite different. Remember that paragraph I quoted earlier. I think it shows how much Dickens sanctified individuality--at least his definition of it. Plus, philosophy aside, Dickens also goes to great lengths to individualize his characters. People sometimes criticize him for his love of caricature, but I interpret this more as Dickens' need to make his characters distinct. It was his way of humanizing his characters. He didn't want them to be a bunch of Jacqueses. Even though "A Tale of Two Cities" shows some compunction about the conditions of the lower class, I don't think that it welcomes the kind of equality we find after the Revolution. That doesn't mean we can't support equality or even see some positives in the Revolution. It just means that the novel itself doesn't lead us to those conclusions. Good post, though, Alexei. Hope you have fun out of the country.

I didn't know there is a discussion on Aeneid, I wanted to join it, but may be the next time I am interested in the Chekhov thread too, so could you tell me when you start another story, please?

The Aeneid discussion is kind of at an ebb right now, but I think/expect/hope Virgil will start it up again soon. The best thread on LitNet, the Chekhov short story discussion, does a story every month. Right now we're finishing up one called "Oh! The Public." Next month (April 1st) we'll start doing another one. I keep changing my mind on what story we should do, though. Rest assured it will be a good one, but I'm still not sure which to do. I'll know by next week. You should check it out. We're here at: http://www.online-literature.com/for...=17728&page=12

Also, I feel really tired out from this horrid flu/cold lingering and the damp/cold/windy weather we have been having here. I wish 'spring' would arrive soon, but it feels more like December here.

Are you still sick, Janine? That must be a horrid flu/cold. Feel better, obviously.

I like to think I have helped him, to model the presentation after the Lawrence thread. I try also to post some photo or photos to get everyone interested. Quark is now participating in the Lawrence short story thread as well. We arranged it that way - I participate in his thread and he participates ours.

The Lawrence thread is our model over there. I would be quite happy if we could get the same kind of participation over there as we do in the Lawrence thread.

It would be utterly great if you were to join us in the Chekhov thread. The stories are shorter and somewhat simplier than the Lawrence ones. You could fit them in more easily I would imagine. Hope to see you over there.

Simpler? I prefer the word approachable. They're short--even for short stories. And, they don't require a lot of added explanation. I don't think that makes them simple, though. We just read "The Lady with the Dog" last time. How can you say that one is simple? One could write (and people have written) an entire article just on the ambiguities in that story. That's not to mention the subtlety of characterization and the extent of the symbolism. It was hardly simple. These last two have been a little simple, I guess, but how can they not be? They're two pages long. I'll let this slide since you're still convalescent, but c'mon. Simple?