Excuse me but would that not be like the question of whether a tree falling in the forest makes a sound if there is no one there to hear it?Originally Posted by ampoule
Excuse me but would that not be like the question of whether a tree falling in the forest makes a sound if there is no one there to hear it?
Actually, no. There was an experiment by Benjamin Libet that shows that our perception of thought before action is just that--a perception. To quote the relevant text from the linked article above: "the actual neural preparation to move (RP) preceded conscious awareness of the intention to move (W) by 300 to 500 milliseconds. Put simply, the brain prepared a movement before a subject consciously decided to move! This result suggests that a person's feeling of intention may be an effect of motor preparatory activity in the brain rather than a cause." In other words our perception of our choice or free will maybe a function of our neural activity and not a matter of fact. (Italics mine)
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.
Mary Lupin: Thanks for your comment. However, where this subject is concerned, and this applies to psychology in general - unfortunately nothing can be proved scientifically, that is empirically.
Also, let us look at this quote:
(The underlines are mine)"the actual neural preparation to move (RP) preceded conscious awareness of the intention to move (W) by 300 to 500 milliseconds. Put simply, the brain prepared a movement before a subject consciously decided to move![/U] This result suggests that a person's feeling of intention may be an effect of motor preparatory activity in the brain rather than a cause." In other words our perception of our choice or free will maybe a function of our neural activity and not a matter of fact.
I put forward in my post that there are two thought processes - conscious, and subconscious. We are, by its definition, not aware of our subconscious process - the same one that instructs our heart to beat even though we are asleep, or 'unconscious' as in a coma, or knocked out by a blow.
Note also, in the reference to the experiment by Libet the use of 'suggest'
and 'may'.
Our knowledge of the mind is still immature. Academia classifies the study of
psychology (which is the study of human behaviour) as a science, however,
unlike physics, in psychology we are dealing with the intangible - the mind,
not the physical structure of the brain. So, it is not really a science. You can carry out many experiments on behaviour, and you can get many varied results.
We have to consider all 'findings' and suggestions, apply our own common sense and experiences from being aware, and follow our own conclusions.
Thanks again. It is an interesting subject, and is a lifelong study.
The world for the nervous system that keeps the heart beating is "autonomic." It is quite distinct from what Freud and Jung meant by the unconscious.
Of course it does, it is a theory...and at this point the best explanation of all the available data.
The mind is a result of brain function and is therefore intimately related to the physical structures of the brain. Otherwise things like lobotomies and chemical substances wouldn't effect the mind, and of course, they do.
The problem that Libet's experiments establish is that what we know as common sense may in fact be an illusion created by the workings of the brain. Historical study can show that what is considered common sense in fact is often just enculturation. I mean it used to be common sense that the earth was still and flat...after all, some used to say, if it was round and we were hurtling through space then we would fly off. Common sense is really what it says, the sense of things held by the in common by the people. It does not translate as true. In other words, something may seem totally obvious and be totally wrong.
Re: the scientific status of psychology...that depends on how you define things like "psychology," "science" and "mind."
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.
This question makes me think of this poem. Surely the sum of this man was more than his actions.
The Unknown Citizen
(To JS/07/M/378 This Marble Monument Is Erected by the State)
He was found by the Bureau of Statistics to be
One against whom there was no official complaint,
And all the reports on his conduct agree
That, in the modern sense of an old-fashioned word, he was a saint,
For in everything he did he served the Greater Community.
Except for the War till the day he retired
He worked in a factory and never got fired,
But satisfied his employers, Fudge Motors Inc.
Yet he wasn't a scab or odd in his views,
For his Union reports that he paid his dues,
(Our report on his Union shows it was sound)
And our Social Psychology workers found
That he was popular with his mates and liked a drink.
The Press are convinced that he bought a paper every day
And that his reactions to advertisements were normal in every way.
Policies taken out in his name prove that he was fully insured,
And his Health-card shows he was once in hospital but left it cured.
Both Producers Research and High-Grade Living declare
He was fully sensible to the advantages of the Installment Plan
And had everything necessary to the Modern Man,
A phonograph, a radio, a car and a frigidaire.
Our researchers into Public Opinion are content
That he held the proper opinions for he time of year;
When there was peace, he was for peace; when there was war, he went.
He was married and added five children to the population,
Which our Eugenist says was the right number for a parent of his generation.
And our teachers report that he never interfered with their education.
Was he free? Was he happy? The question is absurd:
Had anything been wrong, we should certainly have heard.
-- W. H. Auden
There are many explanations, and names applied for what is not truly known, and, as we progress, there will be more. Meanwhile, we take our pick, and apply, until we ourselves in our small part of life, but which to us, is all there is, change, or fine tune, our thoughts on the matter.The world for the nervous system that keeps the heart beating is "autonomic." It is quite distinct from what Freud and Jung meant by the unconscious.
That is exactly the point I was making. As to it being the best explanation, that is your personal opinion to accept Libet's theory, and should not be presented as an undisputed fact, or even 'the best there is'.Of course it does, it is a theory...and at this point the best explanation of all the available data.
Of course there is a 'relationship.' If you read the whole of my post in context, you would see I even open with the importance, and influence, of interaction. I mention this a number of times.The mind is a result of brain function and is therefore intimately related to the physical structures of the brain. Otherwise things like lobotomies and chemical substances wouldn't effect the mind, and of course, they do.
In all our history, we still do not really know which came first, the hen, or the egg. We have only theory. Millions of people, many highly educated, handle their life in the full belief that we all originate from two people
who inhabited the original 'Eden project.' We can believe, or have our own opinions on the matter, that is our choice.
I cannot quote, as a reasonably rational, and unbiased human being with an open mind, a particular theory on the subject and claim that, that is the best we have.
The computer relies on its software, and the software relies on the computer, there is a relationship. Many outside influences exist and interact on both without altering the significance, of both.
Also, is the 'software' the plastic disc we insert, or what is contained on the disc? One is tangible, the other intangible.
Some believe that all life is an illusion. Is our reality, merely a virtual reality? These, to me, are all school yard topics among young thinkers, and often carried through life and later regurgitated in thought provoking outlets like books, and magazines.The problem that Libet's experiments establish is that what we know as common sense may in fact be an illusion created by the workings of the brain. Historical study can show that what is considered common sense in fact is often just enculturation. I mean it used to be common sense that the earth was still and flat...after all, some used to say, if it was round and we were hurtling through space then we would fly off. Common sense is really what it says, the sense of things held by the in common by the people. It does not translate as true. In other words, something may seem totally obvious and be totally wrong.
Re: the scientific status of psychology...that depends on how you define things like "psychology," "science" and "mind."
All words originate from our need to communicate. For effective communication there needs to be a common understanding of the word in the language it is written. It is therefore 'defined,' at least as a jumping off point for those who like to argue 'meaning,' in a book we decided to name a 'dictionary.' Through use, or contrasting opinions of the erudite, there is often more than one meaning, and these are usually stated. An extension to the dictionary is the thesaurus which delves further into the relationship of the meanings.
I have found that, generally, it facilitates communication if I use the more widely accepted meaning as defined in an accepted dictionary. If I venture outside this parameter, then I attempt to make that clear.
To come back to the word 'common sense', it is a word that, certainly through use, it is understood to mean that mental ability we all have (as opposed to a physical ability) where we apply our accrued knowledge, our
basic senses, instincts, logic, and reason to arrive at an understanding of something requiring our understanding.
The fact that we all have something, does not mean that it is equally used or developed. We all have muscles, but they are not equally developed. So, 'common-sense' is derived from an acceptance of a common standard existing at a given period and shared by the majority.
At least, that is how I can put it as simply as possible, within the confines of such a thread where, from experience I have learned that the average 'attention span' is strictly limited.
Like so many of the intangibles relating to 'mind' it can be argued 'till the cows come home' by the argumentative with lots of time on their hands, and the need to milk a cow.
However, thank you for your comments. It offers an opportunity to stimulate, and retest my own thoughts. I hope for others it does likewise.
We are NOT what we EAT, but what we THINK. Or, to put it another way - 'As a man thinketh, so is he'. (and that applies to 'she')
Last edited by Midas; 07-19-2007 at 07:43 AM.
To go back to the beginning for a moment…what I was responding to was the following:
You made a categorical statement which says that thought always precedes action. It is a statement you use to support you contention that human identity is fundamentally one of thought. You seem to be arguing that what is essentially human is the capacity for thought. In order to support this hypothesis you bring forward some evidence. This evidence is that “thought always precedes action.”
What I did is show that at least in one instance (Libet’s research and those who set up further experiments to test his findings and found exactly the same thing) thought does not precede action, rather action precedes thought.
All that is required to destroy a categorical statement is one piece of evidence that shows its falsity. Let me give you an example: I can say “All cats are purple.” All that is necessary to destroy the truth of this is to show at least one cat that is not purple. I would have to amend the statement to say “Some cats are purple.” Then the rules of evidence would be different. I could be shown hundreds and hundreds of non-purple cat and still hold onto my belief that “some cats are purple.” At this point, unless I have some compelling reason (evidence) to show why I hold on to such a belief then I have almost certainly crossed the line from reasoned thinking (allowing evidence) to faith (certainty that does not require or admit evidence).
If evidence is not a criteria for truth value of a statement then all beliefs are equal. Without rules of evidence the belief “all cats are purple” has the same weight as “the apple will drop because of gravity” has the same weight as “the apple will drop because god told it to.” Only in that sense (i.e. without the acceptance of rules of evidence) is the truth of Libet’s research only “my belief.”
And if we are talking without even the most basic common ground of an acceptance of the importance of evidence then we are not talking just producing clacking noises on a keyboard.
So, is there any evidence you will accept that will challenge you basic position? If not, then it is a position of faith and this is pointless to argue. In other words, how many brown, orange, black and white cats do you need to see before you accept that there are no purple cats?
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.
Mary Lupin: First let me say that I deliberately underlined ALWAYS and phrased my comment in what could be construed (out of context) as a statement of fact, deliberately to evoke a challenge from anyone who thought otherwise.
I love to learn other opinions on this, to me, very interesting subject.
However, I included sufficient other comment, if all was read in context, to indicate that so far nothing can be conclusively proved where mind, per se, is concerned. I closed by stating that we should consider all findings, or thoughts on the matter, then decide for ourselves.
One advantage of this subject is that everything we need for any experiment or observation is always at hand - we all have a mind and carry it with us all the time. Whilst we are awake we are constantly aware of its functioning. It is therefore much easier for us to arrive at our own conclusions, than in, say, Newton's 'Laws of Motion' or 'Gravity' or Pythagoras' theorem.
Actually you did not show this, and neither did Libet. With his experiment, Libet claims that some action may be unconscious, and not conscious.What I did is show that at least in one instance (Libet’s research and those who set up further experiments to test his findings and found exactly the same thing) thought does not precede action, rather action precedes thought.
The subconscious could be a form of unconscious, as so little is known.
Our body language often tells much about us, and this we are not 'conscious' of until someone points it out. We have to be often reminded of a bad 'habit' in the form of an action, which if we were conscious of we would not do, or when it is brought to our attention (our concsiousness} we stop - until we forget, and our 'unconscience' takes over.
I also said the same thing, and make this most clear, even in my follow-up posts, although perhaps arriving at this conclusion from a different direction, and using subconscious instead of unconscious. Libet's objective was to attempt to show that all action may not be the result of actual conscious thought. However, his experiments were far from conclusive even on this score.
We are all aware also of 'involuntary' movement in the body, even after death, caused by muscle spasm, or wind in the body, or whatever. I have witnessed this myself. It has also been found that a severed head can still retain signs of life for some seconds. But this has nothing whatever to do with the subject of the thread which I was addressing.
I don't want to get into nit picking on words for the purpose of peripheral argument. I assumed that in the thread title the word 'actions' here is synonymous with behaviour. I think 'behaviour is a little more encompassing than 'actions' from which to judge, or if it is preferred, 'define' a person,
In one of my posts I used an analogy with a computer. However, the mind is far more complex than any computer, and, I believe, its potential far more under used even by the most intelligent amongst us. For one thing, thoughts
evoke emotion, in a computer there is no emotion (yet. Tomorrow, who knows)
To avoid lengthy argument, and to answer the thread's question as succinctly as possible, it is my belief that we are defined by others, from our behaviour. I believe our behaviour stems from what is in our mind (our thoughts) What is up there is not always clear cut, in most of us it is a mishmash of clutter, some surface, some buried deep.
We often confuse ourselves as to what we really think as a result. Some thoughts can be buried so deep - like lost files in a cluttered Victorian office, and can only be accessed by hypnosis - and even then, only after much effort, and expertise.
To answer, 'Who are we?' (another form of the question) We are what we THINK. We are mind with a body, not body with a mind. I will stand by that through thick and thin.
You (anyone) don't believe, or have doubt?
Ok, how about this. You have a very close loving relative, or friend. He/she is involved in an accident and is badly disfigured and seriously, physically, injured for life and the face terribly disfigured.
It means many visits to the hospital, or bedside to have contact. However, the brain is undamaged and you could converse recalling happier times and discussions about present and future - even playing chess, or discussing a book. There are jokes, and laughter, though the disfigurement was a lot to overcome, and accept. This happens constantly. We are thankful to have them still with us.
Now change the scenario, the friend or relative escaped outward injury, in fact he/she looked just as before. However, the brain has been permanently damaged, nothing can ever change that. There is no memory, no recognition, and never will be.
The Drs advise the life support system to be switched off or it would mean a lifetime in this condition - just an otherwise perfect body lying there like a vegetable. This also happens constantly, and, eventually, the life support system is switched off.
My posts here are merely 'food for thought', I do not claim to have the definitive answer.
Sorry, couldn't let this one go as you appear to require me to answerIn other words, how many brown, orange, black and white cats do you need to see before you accept that there are no purple cats?
My answer: I could not accept, and state conclusively, there were no purple cats until I had seen, or reached everyone who had a cat who told me none were purple.
If I had feed back on a large number, I may say that 'it appears' there are possibly no purple cats. (Actually, I don't think I have seen an orange one - ginger yes, orange no, but there may be some, or one.)
Incidentally Mary T, I made a quick search of the internet, and surprise, surprise, it appears there are 'purple' cats.
'.....This log is dedicated to the many cats of the Miller household. And, in particular, the "purple" cat Bully.......' (smile)
As for 'evidence, and rules thereof, you make valid points that anyone woulld be foolish to challenge. However, here they are misapplied in support of your argument.
The only 'evidence' is that Libet carried out some experiments (but which did not purport to find what you stated). They related to consciouness and
action but did not exclude the unconscious, which could be within the realms of subconscious of which little is known) However, none were conclusive.
One final comment on your cat analogy. We can see, and touch a cat. We cannot see, or touch the mind. The mind responds differently in different
subjects even in the same conditions. Therefore, it is impossible to subject
it to empirical experiment and arrive at conclusive evidence that can apply to all minds.
What evidence can you give to support this statement? Experimentation or supposition?
If it is the first then one can make empirical statements about the mind. If it is the second it is another categorical statement or a statement of belief/faith without evidence. If it is the second then it is a meaningless statement with respect to a shared conversation.
I would say more that we are a body/mind or more precisely, we are a conscious body. Radical change in the body changes the patterns of mind. Consciousness studies seems to be pointing toward the idea that the mind is an emergent property of the brain.
And if this is true then your stance, however arrived, has become an article of faith and not of reason.
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.
Mary Lupin: This argument, I fear, is being dragged away from the main issue of the thread, and is becoming one of semantics.
From your comments, you are still picking on bits of the whole and ignoring the rest of my post which would qualify the statements you pick on and make clear the intended meaning. I pointed this out before.
There are experiments, and experiments. All experiment findings do not end up as what have been termed in science as 'laws'. A scientific experiment performed under the required empirical criterion and findings accepted as producing conclusive evidence can be termed a theory and a law.
Usually, the difference being that the core part of the theory (the law) can be presented as a mathematical equation.
Now I am not a scientist, or a mathematician, nor should one need to be if a little common sense is used in the understanding of a point being made on the thread subject. This is a thread on a website forum, not a term paper. We should be ever conscious of dragging other readers into a peripheral argument.
I assume a mind cannot be seen, or touched because no one, as far as I know, in the history of man has ever seen, or physically touched, a mind (brain yes, mind no)
If you, or anyone, can prove me wrong on this, please feel free.
I personally have seen, and touched a cat.
Newton's experiments on gravity, or motion, applied to all things physical, that means of matter or having 'mass'.
The core findings are termed 'laws', but you may also see them referred to as 'theories', and, taken in general terms, they are, and can be added to, as Einstein did. They would not apply to the mind. The mind is not physical. (They would apply to a cat - even a purple or orange cat, or even the human body, or physical part thereof)
The only 'experiments' carried out on 'minds' and behaviour, and in the course of my life I have carried out many experiments on behaviour and read the findings of others, appear to show fairly conclusively that human behaviour is fickle. Certainly nothing could be presented as a mathematical equation or having universal acceptance.
We may conclude that faced with a threat a person (or animal) will fight, or take flight - a theory first suggested in 1927 by Walter Cannon. But then, that is not so. An animal, or human could 'freeze' - that is neither run, nor fight - and many do.
It is not possible to predict the same reaction to a set of identical circumstances between two or more individuals, and what is more, not in the same person if repeated. One day in a trench and under attack a soldier may stand and fight, the next day, later, under similar circumstances he may run - or lie down and pretend to be dead.
I did make perfectly clear that in this area, that means where this thread is concerned, we can only take the findings of others, and/or our own experiences, and observation, and make up our own minds.
Nowhere do I say, I am right, believe me. This should qualify any personal comment in my post that may be construed (where it should not) as 'factual evidence' or accepted law arrived at under scientific empirical conditions.
You say:
If that is what you believe, then I accept that as your belief. If someone wishes to believe we are all programmed, and have no such thing as a mind of our own, then that is their belief. Nothing has ever been conclusively proved otherwise.I would say more that we are a body/mind or more precisely, we are a conscious body. Radical change in the body changes the patterns of mind. Consciousness studies seems to be pointing toward the idea that the mind is an emergent property of the brain.
I concluded my last posting with an example to support my hypotheses concerning the importance of mind, over the physical body in determining who we really are. Of course, the physical, ie., the brain, is necessary as the transmitter and receiver unit, just as the computer is for the software, or the TV for the programs. The body is also necessary to house the brain.
But you can have two identical computers and feed one with a rubbish piece of software, and the other with a quality piece. What makes the difference between the two? Which would you choose? Would you define the difference by the computer (there isn't any), or the difference from its 'actions' (behaviour, ability, afforded by its software)
The same adage applies to the mind - garbage in, garbage out.
If once again, you feel like taking this away from the core issue, and arguing semantics, or whatever, I am happy to do this by 'private' message - unless there are sufficient readers who find it of interest and are happy to sit this out.
Last edited by Midas; 07-22-2007 at 08:29 AM.
Two comments and then I am happy to leave this be:
The problem with your analogy is that unlike a computer, which has a mind (its software) that comes from somewhere else (gives deus ex machina a more precisely correct meaning?), our computer (brain) writes its own. And of course, although there are deep structural identities, no two brains are precisely alike. Discussing the mind without reference to the brain is more like discussing the odd fluctuating patterns in a heat cloud over a toaster without discussing the odd fluctuating breaks in the electric coils within the body of the toaster.
If you structure a wonderfully intricate equation but in it there is a phrase 1+1=3, the only thing that matters is that error. The rest will live or die by this "semantic" particular. Your categorical statement (the one bit I picked on) was this error.
I've always found it rather exciting to remember that there is a difference between what we experience and what we think it means.
You say:
Here we go again. (I don't really mind, if no one else does)Two comments and then I am happy to leave this be:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas
'.......But you can have two identical computers and feed one with a rubbish piece of software, and the other with a quality piece. What makes the difference between the two? Which would you choose? Would you define the difference by the computer (there isn't any), or the difference from its 'actions' (behaviour, ability) afforded by its software.
The same adage applies to the mind - garbage in, garbage out............'
You respond:
The dictionary (Oxford) meaning of analogy is 'partial likeness of a thing compared.' So, I would never claim any analogy I use to be exact. I would also expect anyone with whom I was presenting argument to understand that, without myself having to express it.The problem with your analogy is that unlike a computer, which has a mind (its software) that comes from somewhere else (gives deus ex machina a more precisely correct meaning?), our computer (brain) writes its own. And of course, although there are deep structural identities, no two brains are precisely alike. Discussing the mind without reference to the brain is more like discussing the odd fluctuating patterns in a heat cloud over a toaster without discussing the odd fluctuating breaks in the electric coils within the body of the toaster.
Your comment:.unlike a computer, which has a mind (its software) that comes from somewhere else (gives deus ex machina a more precisely correct meaning?), our computer (brain)
It can only be an opinion you are expressing that our brain writes its own software.
It cannot be a statement of fact for reasons we have already discussed. It cannot be proved how the mind is formulated.
For instance, to me, the brain is merely the processor. The 'software', however, unlike the computer does not down load from a single disc because man is not a machine. It is continuously being updated, and imputed via the senses into the processor (brain).
Nowhere have I stated that the brain is, or should be, separated from mind. In the same way I would not separate the computer from the software. I referred to the interrelationship of all parts.
We often talk of cause and effect as though they are single, stand alone, actions, or events. But, when looked at with a broad view, every effect becomes the cause of another effect. To me life is merely a long chain of interacting 'causes and effects'. This is where the teaching of history goes astray. The way it is taught is so often in dibs and dabs of events - often jumping all over the place. There is no cohesion.
Why you are 'hooking' on this is beyond me. I have merely commented, and given analogies why, in responding to the theme of this thread, I rate 'the mind' (assuming an acceptance that there is 'a mind') is the source and channel for our behaviour, and that, to me, it is from our behaviour (used here in its broad sense) we are defined by others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Midas
'....being dragged away from the main issue of the thread, and is becoming one of semantics.
From your comments, you are still picking on bits of the whole and ignoring the rest of my post ......'
Your response:
__________________If you structure a wonderfully intricate equation but in it there is a phrase 1+1=3, the only thing that matters is that error. The rest will live or die by this "semantic" particular. Your categorical statement (the one bit I picked on) was this error.
Mathematics is precise. This is why in Science when a theory can be presented in a mathematical equation which can be used by anyone, it is referred to as a universal law, and is elevated above theory.
Language, on the other hand, is not precise. This is why, English, a language used by so many eminent writers, even international ones, developed such a wide range of words of similar meaning in order for the writer to attempt to get as close a meaning as possible to that which he/she wished to convey.
Get a word wrong, or perhaps not quite close, or misspelled, and usually (depending on the seriousness of the error) the writing can be understood. Get one figure wrong in an equation.........well..need I explain further.
Last edited by Midas; 07-23-2007 at 09:40 AM.
I think we are defined by our actions, but it would be better to say "people are defined by their actions." There's no reason to exclude women and children from this debate, I think it's a philisophical one about what a subject is, and applies to any subject, er.. let's say humans.
There was a book released in 1968 that claimed there was no such thing as personality, that people did things based on their environment, and a good person would do a bad thing or vice versa, and it depended on the circumstances. I think this is more or less true, but since then the debate has gone back and forth until I think the community decided it was a mixture of personality and environment.
There is such thing as personality, however, we should keep into account that people can be unreliable or unpredictable. Just because someone has behaved a certain way in the past doesn't mean they will do it again. People are unpredictable.
But it seems generally accepted that the answer is yes. We are legally held accountable for our actions and in some religions, divinely so, too.
Not just people - all of the animal kingdom. But this, I'm sure, is generally understood."people are defined by their actions."
A couple of well worn cliches on the subject, but, to me, are most valid
'Actions speak louder than words'
'When all is said and done, there is always more said than done'
But it is my firm belief that mind controls our actions - sometimes our conscious mind, and sometimes our subconcious (or non conscious - as in embedded in our 'hard drive')
Hence: 'As a man thinketh, so is he' and that applies to all sexes - male, female, and 'not quite sure'.
Do animals think? I believe they do, though I had a number of arguments with my professor on this.
Last edited by Midas; 07-24-2007 at 03:56 AM.
man is mainly influenced by two factors-by his own characteristics,some of which he is born with and some created by the inevitable influence of his surroundings and atmosphere.
great and noble men most of the times are observed to born with another thing,that is to cut out the dark layer of the negative influence of his environment over his innate potential.
from this we could conclude that man can't be judged by his activities or circumstances alone,both could be influenced perpetually by each other-sometimes person by circumstances,sometimes circumstances are shadowed by the very self of a person.
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