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  1. #16
    The Ghost of Laszlo Jamf islandclimber's Avatar
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    Yes, it is likely I was flirting with a little hyperbole there in my description of Shirley Jackson. She's no better, nor worse, than many mid-grade writers. I just found all the academic scholarship popping up with her work kind of irritating. It likely did not help I had to read a couple stories of hers in a lit. class in University. English literature classes seemed to have a tendency to do that... They always seem to toss in some rather mediocre fiction, and force you to analyze and research this empty content. Ahhh. There I go again with hyperbole. I haven't even read that particular story. It's the one that was turned into a film, n'est-ce pas?

    I shall look into this William Stieg book. I have always liked certain realms of Children's Literature.

    The story, above. I like parts of it. The pacing is good. The dialogue is pretty good and at the very least, interesting. Even though the story starts with a description of the weather, I like the way it leaps into being. Only, get rid of the word "storm" in the first sentence. It seems terribly banal there. I might combine the first two sentences in some way. Replace "a storm rolled towards the city" with "dark clouds rolled towards the city", this will allow us to infer from the wind and the dark clouds that a storm is approaching.

    This might be a little overwritten at times, though I adore hopelessly overwritten works... However, I find this only works if the writer knows what he/she is on about, and is not just overwriting random bits due to lack of control. This piece seems to be more so the latter. A tendency I sometimes fall into as well.

    My only other issue would be the rather cliched narrative. An ominous setting with the weather, a not so chance encounter with a prophetic stranger who turns out to not really be a stranger at all, but someone who has followed your life closely and is now there to set you on the true path, where your undiscovered talents will be unearthed and you will be raised up out of your present dire circumstance. And this first encounter, where you are forced to dredge up a terribly painful memory, and through it to gain sort of toehold on this new pathway to some kind of power/enlightenment. And then, this "fairy godmother/spiritual guide" disappears and you are left back in that dire circumstance, knowing that your life will never again be the same. I don't know. This seems like an awfully predictable storyline.

    Regardless of my misgivings as to what you are writing about (I think your talent with prose would be better placed alongside a little more originality), I like your prose stylings. So yes, keep writing!

    Quote Originally Posted by hillwalker View Post
    I agree with all the above. I've actually had a novel accepted for publication that begins with the MC waking up from a dream. . . but the situation she finds herself in is completely relevant to the plot.

    Too often aspiring writers begin a story with their MC waking up because that's where his/her day begins, so by association that is where the story must begin. Not necessary for obvious reasons.

    H
    You are right here. I think in an "established" writer this type of cliched beginning is okay, as it can serve a purpose, it can be necessary even. Like you say though, it's in the aspiring writer that this is problematic. Far too often they feel they must begin stories with overly descriptive settings of scene, establishing the weather, the time of day, an awakening, the date, etc. A warning in that regard is certainly justifiable, I only object to the setting of general rules like avoiding these things to begin with. Although, if one looks at the examples I listed they all touch rather briefly on waking, or the weather, etc. They don't dwell, they touch, and as though burnt by this blasphemous touch, leap immediately in another direction. Even the rather lengthy description by Bellow there, only briefly describes the weather and seems more intent on the metaphorical city being undressed on this hot equatorial night.

    So, maybe it's just the overly long scene settings (of any sort) that are the problem? New writers have a tendency to do this with weather or awakenings...
    Last edited by qimissung; 02-09-2013 at 02:31 PM.

  2. #17
    running amok Sancho's Avatar
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    Flannery O'Connor sums up well what a lot of people are saying here:

    "It's always wrong of course to say that you can't do this or you can't do that in fiction. You can do anything you can get away with, but nobody has ever gotten away with much."
    Uhhhh...

  3. #18
    All are at the crossroads qimissung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by islandclimber View Post
    Yes, it is likely I was flirting with a little hyperbole there in my description of Shirley Jackson. She's no better, nor worse, than many mid-grade writers. I just found all the academic scholarship popping up with her work kind of irritating. It likely did not help I had to read a couple stories of hers in a lit. class in University. English literature classes seemed to have a tendency to do that... They always seem to toss in some rather mediocre fiction, and force you to analyze and research this empty content. Ahhh. There I go again with hyperbole. I haven't even read that particular story. It's the one that was turned into a film, n'est-ce pas?

    I shall look into this William Stieg book. I have always liked certain realms of Children's Literature.

    The story, above. I like parts of it. The pacing is good. The dialogue is pretty good and at the very least, interesting. Even though the story starts with a description of the weather, I like the way it leaps into being. Only, get rid of the word "storm" in the first sentence. It seems terribly banal there. I might combine the first two sentences in some way. Replace "a storm rolled towards the city" with "dark clouds rolled towards the city", this will allow us to infer from the wind and the dark clouds that a storm is approaching.

    This might be a little overwritten at times, though I adore hopelessly overwritten works... However, I find this only works if the writer knows what he/she is on about, and is not just overwriting random bits due to lack of control. This piece seems to be more so the latter. A tendency I sometimes fall into as well.

    My only other issue would be the rather cliched narrative. An ominous setting with the weather, a not so chance encounter with a prophetic stranger who turns out to not really be a stranger at all, but someone who has followed your life closely and is now there to set you on the true path, where your undiscovered talents will be unearthed and you will be raised up out of your present dire circumstance. And this first encounter, where you are forced to dredge up a terribly painful memory, and through it to gain sort of toehold on this new pathway to some kind of power/enlightenment. And then, this "fairy godmother/spiritual guide" disappears and you are left back in that dire circumstance, knowing that your life will never again be the same. I don't know. This seems like an awfully predictable storyline.

    Regardless of my misgivings as to what you are writing about (I think your talent with prose would be better placed alongside a little more originality), I like your prose stylings. So yes, keep writing!
    Yes, it was made into a movie-twice. Once in 1963 and again in 1999. Don't bother with the second one, please. The first one has Julie Harris and Claire Bloom and is actually quite good.

    Here is the first paragragraph of the book. No one wakes up, no weather is described, and yet...


    No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream. Hill house, not sane, stood by itself against its hills, holding darkness within; it had stood so for 80 years and might for 80 more. Within, walls continued upright, bricks met neatly, floors were firm, and doors sensibly shut; silence lay steadily against the wood and stone of Hill House, and whatever walked there, walked alone.
    "

    I think, Hillwalker and IslandClimber, that that is the very thing that beginning and aspiring writers do think, that they have to prettify their writing. English teachers probably contribute to the problem, in that student writing is so uniformly awful we try to get them to describe, to include sensory details to try to help them draw the reader in, while they are just trying to get a grade...sigh.

    And actually, Sarah, all the things that IslandClimber found cliched I liked......which is why it's important to know your audience and who your writing for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sancho View Post
    Flannery O'Connor sums up well what a lot of people are saying here:

    "It's always wrong of course to say that you can't do this or you can't do that in fiction. You can do anything you can get away with, but nobody has ever gotten away with much."
    Last edited by qimissung; 02-09-2013 at 02:30 PM.
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
    "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai
    "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka

  4. #19
    The Ghost of Laszlo Jamf islandclimber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qimissung View Post
    Yes, it was made into a movie-twice. Once in 1963 and again in 1999. Don't bother with the second one, please. The first one has Julie Harris and Claire Bloom and is actually quite good.

    Here is the first paragragraph of the book. No one wakes up, no weather is described, and yet...


    No live organism can continue for long to exist sanely under conditions of absolute reality; even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream. Hill house, not sane, stood by itself against its hills, holding darkness within; it had stood so for 80 years and might for 80 more. Within, walls continued upright, bricks met neatly, floors were firm, and doors sensibly shut; silence lay steadily against the wood and stone of Hill House, and whatever walked there, walked alone.
    "

    I think, Hillwalker and IslandClimber, that that is the very thing that beginning and aspiring writers do think, that they have to prettify their writing. English teachers probably contribute to the problem, in that student writing is so uniformly awful we try to get them to describe, to include sensory details to try to help them draw the reader in, while they are just trying to get a grade...sigh.

    And actually, Sarah, all the things that IslandClimber found cliched I liked......which is why it's important to know your audience and who your writing for.



    That beginning is rather intriguing. Qimi. What are you doing to me?!?! I don't want to find Shirley Jackson's prose intriguing! *shakes head

    But, but, but... 1999 version has Catherine Zeta Jones and Lili Taylor! So epic! I might check out the earlier version. Looks interesting.

    I wonder about how the education system introduces creative writing in general; I know it was a highly neglected format in my secondary school education. Post-secondary creative writing courses are all rather banal as well. They seem to be far too formulaic in approach. I think beginner/aspiring writers often have not read near enough and they fail to see how great writers avoid hackneyed and "prettified" style (love this word!)...

    You are so write about knowing one's audience and who one is writing for. Although sometimes I think it would be best if we all wrote without an audience in mind... It would certainly make for less contrived content.

  5. #20
    All are at the crossroads qimissung's Avatar
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    You have a good point there, Islandclimber. That's another rather hackneyed approach we learn to present to kids. It's all horrible. And frankly, we are not allowed to really teach them how to write, or read even. I work in an inner city school, and all we do is play catch up, since almost all of them read slightly below grade level. As far as writing goes,the state tries, with their stupid tests, to give the kids something to aspire too, I guess. For this five years they must learn how to write a persuasive paper, for the next five it's a personal narrative, then it's a literary essay. I have come to believe in the natural approach. They should read-what they want. Then they should write-about something they are interested in. Then we publish. This approach has worked in other schools, but right now everyone believes teachers should be directed to within an inch of their tiny little lives, so nothing good is going to happen for awhile. Or maybe ever.

    Yes, I am your worst nightmare-the ghost of Shirley Jacksons' past! Catherine Zeta-Jones has been in some decent stuff, as has been Lili Taylor, but this was NOT one of them. It's a bloated, overdone monstrosity, Hollywood at it's absolute worst.Shame on them for signing on. Shame on them! (rattles chains) Between this and "Battleship" I really wonder how a decent movie ever gets made there anymore.

    Let me know if see it, and what you think of it.
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
    "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai
    "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka

  6. #21
    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
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    I showed the 1963 Haunting to one of my friend's kids and his friend (they were probably early teens at the time), and this black-and-white movie with very minimal special effects scared them silly. Score one for the old school.
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

  7. #22
    All are at the crossroads qimissung's Avatar
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    Which just goes to show, it's the writing, stupid Hollywood.
    "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its' own reason for existing." ~ Albert Einstein
    "Remember, no matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Bonzai
    "Some people say I done alright for a girl." Melanie Safka

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah.nichole View Post
    I have moved on with the story. Quite a lot actually. I did this editing a while ago. Just thought I would post it again.
    Probably the most frustrating response ever. Sometimes it helps if we know in advance that you don't really want our feedback.

    H

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