Altruism

[Alexander III]

I used to feel that way too...Now, I'm not so sure.

Looking around at the world, I think it's easy to jump on the "Everyone is an *******" train, and I can't really blame anyone for feeling that way. But, I don't think it does enough to address the fact that there are really, truly, abysmally terrible people in the world who actually do very bad things, and that the vast majority of the people you meet on the street do NOT fall into that category. To some extent, pushing all the strangers who might not be as friendly as you'd like them to be under the umbrella of "Bad People" even trivializes the fact that some seriously ****ed up people are out there doing seriously ****ed up things.

Besides, when you meet a stranger, you don't really know what their life is like...You don't know the panorama of circumstances that has lead them to that moment. Life is hard on everyone, after all, and there's always the possibility that they are going through a really rough time, or even just a mildly annoying day, and don't really feel like stopping and making jovial chit-chat.

So, that's all to say, most people really aren't as bad as we tend to make them out. I think most are basically good and innocent, actually.

Agree

[JuniperWoolf]

Me too. Everyone is on the defensive when they're out in public with a bunch of people they don't know, it doesn't tell you anything when you're looking at a person in that state. I find that once you get around the outer shell of someone they're almost always lovable.

[Volya]

JuniperWoolf; when I am out and about in public, I pass by many people my own age. When they are on their own, they rarely speak to me. When they are in a group, inevitably as they walk past me, I will be assaulted with a barrage of insults and the occasional shove. These aren't one-off incidents, in happens more or less everytime they're in a group. Sure, a lot of it is just due to the fact that they're in a group, and it's just them trying to seem cool. But to me, if somebody does something like that, even if it's just because there friends are doing it, then they are NOT a nice person. I know, this does not mean EVERYBODY in the world is a bad guy. Nor does it mean that the people who do so are all evil bastards. It just shows to me, than in general, most people are not inherently good.

[JuniperWoolf]

Kids basically do what their friends are doing even if they don't want to, and some of them even come to regret their behaviour as they get older. You can't judge a person's existential worth, or inherent goodness or whatever, based on when they were teenagers and they took the piss out of a kid in a private school uniform.

Also, "nice" isn't the opposite of "bad." I know a few individuals who's character really contain the best of humanity, really just fantastic people at the very core of their being - but some are a bit gruff, some like to tease (for the lulz), some are introverted to the point of appearing cold, you wouldn't use "nice" as an adjective to describe them. On the other hand, there are those who absolutely exude politeness, sickeningly sweet "niceness," who are, in fact, at the core of their being, pure ****ing evil.

So, "good" vs. "bad" isn't the same as "rude" vs. "nice."

[Clopin]

Kids basically do what their friends are doing even if they don't want to, and some of them even come to regret their behaviour as they get older. You can't judge a person's existential worth, or inherent goodness or whatever, based on when they were teenagers and they took the piss out of a kid in a private school uniform.

I think you can, or somewhat. Some people do things specifically to be mean and some people do not.

Edit - That said, yelling "fag" at some kid in a school uniform isn't really a calculated assault on your self esteem.

[Volya]

How do their actions when they were a teenager not count? Doing something because your friends are doing it only shows that you are weak-minded. Of course, I know that just insulting somebody doesn't make them an evil person. However it's enough in my eyes to make them 'not good'.

Oh and Juniper, I don't go to a private school. A lot of the time they are wearing similar uniforms to mine (the only real change is colour), they just wear it a lot more scruffily.

[Alexander III]

When I was 15, I was rather evil. You grow out of it.

[Scheherazade]

I believe it exists. I have seen many people around me give for no other reason than because they can and believe it is the right thing to do. I can give you at least ten examples of people who give, even when they receive nothing but aggravation back. These people are not doing it because they feel good afterward, but because they value helping others. Some of these people have no faith that an afterlife exists- getting into Heaven isn't their source of motivation.

I agree with this very much from a personal point of view.

I donate my hair and offer little (anonymous) financial aid to students regularly not as a way of reserving seats in a heaven I do not believe in or in hope of offsetting the balance of my less-than-nice deeds but simply because I know I am capable of them.

I am not sure if feeling good about those deeds makes them less valuable; I cannot deny that I do feel good about myself... Not in an arrogant way but simply because I prove myself that I am capable of good as well bad.

[Paulclem]

How do their actions when they were a teenager not count? Doing something because your friends are doing it only shows that you are weak-minded. Of course, I know that just insulting somebody doesn't make them an evil person. However it's enough in my eyes to make them 'not good'.

Oh and Juniper, I don't go to a private school. A lot of the time they are wearing similar uniforms to mine (the only real change is colour), they just wear it a lot more scruffily.

Unfortunately it is an old story repeating itself. Many of us have had the same kind of treatment at one time or another. The only consolation is that like us, you will get to a place where it doesn't happen as people grow up and you lose the uniform. It will stop. : )

Edit: Much as I like using the phone to access the net, I still suffer from sausage finger mistypes. Bah.

[Volya]

Ah it doesn't bother me xD
I was just using it as an example of the inherently bad or good nature of people.

[Paulclem]

Impossible to tell that from teens unfortunately. You'll have the encounter - sometime in the future - with some idiot who picked on you at school, and you'll find they've turned into a normal, likeable bloke. I encountered Baz on a small, fenced in path years after leaving school. Instead of demanding every spice on me - (gimme all your sweets in Yorkshire lingo) - he seemed pleased to see me.

[Dodo25]

If you keep asking for ultimate justification, every altruistic act will end up stemming from a motive that benefits the doer in some way. That can be simply the motive of doing "what is right", thereby feeling good about not having done what is wrong. If we define altruism in a way that would exclude any such consideration, then altruism won't exist. But it would also be quite a silly, useless concept.

If we define altruism meaningfully, then I'm quite convinced that it's real. Personally, I dedicate my life to reducing as much suffering as possible, and I even act with that in mind when no one is there to watch my behavior. I'm often puzzled at this myself, actually. But that's how it is, I think intellectual consistency is the driving force for me (I'm specializing in ethics).

[OrphanPip]

I've been watching a cbc documentary on the moral development of children, and thought it had some interesting things to say about how children begin to determine what is fair, when to tell the truth, and who is one of the group or different.

I'm not sure the video is available outside of Canada, but you can read a bit about the research covered in the doc on the page.

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/epi...be-good-1.html

[YesNo]

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/epi...be-good-1.html

It reminds me of Justin Barrett's Born Believers which is a survey of developmental psychology's attempts to understand what very young children think of "superhuman agents" prior to being taught anything specific about a particular God.