The Death Penalty

[JuniperWoolf]

Whenever something like the Magnotta or the Colorado shootings happens, if you read facebook say or the comments under a news article online, a great number of the comments are emphatically calling for the suspect's death. The fire in the tone of their posts is so strong, it's as though they take it personally - but of course it isn't personal, at least not to them, it's just something they saw on the news. It always seems to me like they get off on it, like many people are looking for a socially acceptable way to direct their bloodlust. Killing a killer has the veneer of righteousness.

So, death penalty thread. Am I the only one disturbed by the "string him up" crowd? What are your opinions on the death penalty in general?

[Darcy88]

I am against the death penalty because they've proven that it does not deter criminals. Someone insane enough to do something like Magnotta did is not thinking about consequences. They are psychopaths who do not think about consequences.

I look at criminals like them as sick people who need help. I believe in punishment, particularly since when a person's life is taken then the lives of everyone in their circle, their family and friends and associates and greater community, are greatly and grievously affected.

I don't think there needs to be a division between punishment and rehabilitation. I think rehabilitation should be the goal of punishment, even if the person never gets out of prison. A person can be made to be an upstanding inmate. A person's life does not end when they go into prison, they just enter a much different sort of community. A person can learn, grow, no matter how sick and twisted they are. There are doctors there who can prescribe pills, give therapy.

I say throw such people in prison, throw away the key, and once they are inside do what we can to improve them. But they cannot be let to walk the streets - ever.

But I must also admit that I can fall prey to such bloodlust myself. The case of George Zimmerman down in Florida disturbs me so much I often find myself hoping they can execute him. I am not impervious to these base animal desires. Sometimes I respect them since the people who loved the victim deserve vengeance.

A criminal's primary motive for living after his crime should be to EARN the forgiveness of the victim's loved ones and of the community.

That's what I think on it. A little confused, kind of split, but overall against the death penalty, especially in Canada. I do not want the death penalty in this country.

[MystyrMystyry]

I'm not afraid to say that when I was younger I thought hanging was too good for them - in fact any 'acceptable' punishment toward death: be it electric, injection, or what-have-you. But I came to realise these folks are ****ed-in-the-heads, and there but for the grace of God go I...

In many countries (and I believe without checking, some U.S. states) the end of capital killings came when too many were falsely charged. You should never put too much faith in the police, in witnesses, in courts - there will almost always be an element of doubt.

On the other hand having so many unproductive and expensive to maintain prisoners is also a waste of the good people's taxes and resources. There have always been more victims than perpetrators, but there's a ready made workforce who could be trained to make ipads for peanuts - and honestly the sheer amount of money it would take to rehabilitate all of them properly, well why not put them to some use?

[JuniperWoolf]

On the other hand having so many unproductive and expensive to maintain prisoners is also a waste of the good people's taxes and resources.

Oh yeah, that brings up an important point: it costs more to execute someone than keep them in prison, execution is very, very expensive ($186 mil for five executions!). I've always liked the idea of inmate workforces, they don't do that often enough. The inmates in my town made some furnature for the park in 1998 or so, and that's the last I've heard of them doing anything.

[Helga]

I am against it. I have heard of many cases where they did convict and kill the wrong person. Also I wrote an essay once about how many mentally disabled or people with a very very low IQ being punished and killed.

Here on the ice the death penalty was over hundreds of years ago and I think I remember it being a woman who was the last one or at least she and her partner in crime.

I do get annoyed a bit when I here these chats as the OP described, the crimes can be horrible but I think death is never the answer.

I do agree that inmates should be put to work, here on the ice the are able to work but they get paid for it..... I want them to do hard labor or at least something other than collecting old photos and getting paid for it.

Me and my step dad had the idea of having them fix the road up to his cabin, but apparently it's illegal.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

Against it 100%. I used to feel differently, and kind of still do. I'll elaborate in a bit.

[qimissung]

I am against it. It does not deter crime, and for what other reason would we want to do it? In H.L. Menken's "The Penalty of Death" he argues that a more important reason for the death penalty is catharsis, a more elevated version of revenge, and that, I think, is what a lot of people want.

I don't think it helps, really. Time and eventually forgiveness are the only things that will heal us when a great wrong has been committed against ourselves or our fellow man.

[cafolini]

I am against the death penalty when the accussed might not be guilty. Not because of the idiotic not guilty by reason of insanity, which in those cases as in every other one is useless. In a case like James Holmes there is no doubt of the insanity and I think he must be put to death precisely by reason of clear insanity. These cases have always amazed me. Men fought a WWII that was far more insane than people like James Holmes would be capable. Yet, this amazing bird is the insane one and on that account elude death? Pleaaaase! Liberate him. He could not be found innocent later.

[Alexander III]

I used to be strongly opposed to it, but I have changed my views since then. I think capital punishment is a necessary tool. But not the way the states do it, the states have really messed it up. I read somewhere, I forget where, that each prisoner sentenced to death costs the state a huge amount due to all the legal proceedings and it would be roughly 100 times cheaper to keep them in jail for life than to sentence them to death.

But my strongest support for the death penalty is due to the deterrent effect. I have yet to see any study which infers that capital punishment has not deterrent effect. Even if it only did deter 1/100 such cases, is it not worth it? Is it more acceptable that an innocent civilian dies instead of a mass murderer? Like with children sometimes words are not enough, and they shall only cease to behave badly once you give them the slap, because until that point they do not take you seriously. I seriously feel that if America did have a serious and efficient capital punishment system for crimes such as those which happened in colorado and at the Sikh temple, it would deter such things, and they would happen more infrequently. Also I hear people say that the death penalty is vengeance not justice, and this is true. But it is the states job to avenge. We no longer live in past ages where there were blood feuds, every citizen relies upon the state to protect and avenge him. I see nothing wrong with revenge, it offer cathartic release to the family and friends of the victims, and at what cost? The life of a mass murderer? I may be a primordial creature, but when a man wrongs me, until I have revenge I feel that I do not have justice. And a man should trust the state to provide firstly justice and revenge to the victims, and then consideration the the criminals.

Words don't earn respect, actions do. Show a nation that the state will not tolerate the slaughtering of innocent civilians, and will swiftly and efficiently punish (without 30 years of court appeals) the perpetrators, and I will not say all, but some may think twice before going on mass murdering sprees. Man differs more from man, than man from beast; and since there are many which are on the same level as the beast, it is only just to treat them as beasts.

[Emil Miller]

For all those who say: "There but for the grace of God go I," referencing the killer, I say they should think of the victim when you say it.

[tonywalt]

I am against it.

Speaking of reactions - I always find it unsettling to see crowds (typically fraternitiy types) cheering and having parties outside the prison during these exuctutions. And the media interviewing people like it's some sort of pep rally.

[Delta40]

As a parent I imagine for a moment being the mother of one of those crazy killers and ask myself if I would be standing in line asking for a lethal injection for my child and every time the answer is a loud, resounding no. So why would I ask it for anybody else? I can't stand the hypocrisy of those who want to save their own but are quick to condemn others to death.

Historically, public executions were far more satisfying and probably had more of a deterrent effect (although so many more crimes were punishable by death). Consider the whole bloody affair an artistic performance and a reinforcement of what would happen when you insulted the king. Once these executions were hidden behind walls, I think the immediate satisfaction and sense of justice disappeared. Certainly, families could no longer take their children along to one for a picnic and show what would happen to them if they fell into a life of crime.

[Mutatis-Mutandis]

There's a difference between being for the death penalty and thinking people deserve to die. There are plenty of criminals who I think deserve death, the latest being this lunatic who shot up the movie theater. He shouldn't get the death penalty, because it is a flawed system.

Ideally, I think we should have the death penalty, but only for the most extreme of cases and only when it is actually beyond doubt. I'm talking about serial or mass killers, killers of children, i.e., the real psychos out there. The "without doubt" part is the problem. Too many innocents have died (I stand by the principle that a hundred guilty men go free before an innocent man be punished). Even if this ideal system of mine was used, it would still be up to juries and judges, and eventually they'd get it wrong.

[OrphanPip]

Words don't earn respect, actions do. Show a nation that the state will not tolerate the slaughtering of innocent civilians, and will swiftly and efficiently punish (without 30 years of court appeals) the perpetrators, and I will not say all, but some may think twice before going on mass murdering sprees. Man differs more from man, than man from beast; and since there are many which are on the same level as the beast, it is only just to treat them as beasts.

The question isn't whether execution is a deterrent or not, but whether it is a better or equal deterrent to imprisonment, and the majority of evidence points to the fact that it is.

The removal of death penalties from most societies resulted in no changes to crime rates. Countries that do not have death penalties tend to actually have less crime than those with the death penalty.

And honestly, do you really think anyone who goes on a mass murdering spree is sane enough to think out the consequences? The majority of them plan suicides at the end of it anyway.

[MystyrMystyry]

For all those who say: "There but for the grace of God go I," referencing the killer, I say they should think of the victim when you say it.

The point being they're not considered insane until they do something insane. They tend to not advertise their intentions beforehand, however many and in hindsight obvious the warning signs. This is why they keep them alive - to study and work out how they became a loose cannon, in some vain hope they may be able to prevent a repeat, but they're all sufficiently different that it doesn't appear to work. "Oh look, he's dropped out of his course, and he was doing so well - better lock him up before he goes on a shooting spree..."

Also they're kept doped up, so the test results are dubious at best.

Where is the data kept of potential red alerts? Who reads it? Who has all potential criminal profiles stored in their memory to know what to watch for?

The Mentalist is only a television show.