mythology and religion in art

[billl]

Look, do a blog if you don't want discussion or comments.

What I think is unfortunate is that those two posts are being distracted from by the absurd notion (coming from what evidence I don't know) that I mean to distract from them. I am most certainly not in cahoots with PaulClem on this... I made a point of mentioning those two posts as worthwhile reading, in my opinion, especially for anyone who might be thinking of getting involved with a teaching that is to be kept secret, and/or that one is to be pressured against giving up. Here's the link to them again:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...74#post1156674

[Paulclem]

Look, do a blog if you don't want discussion or comments.

What I think is unfortunate is that those two posts are being distracted from by the absurd notion (coming from what evidence I don't know) that I mean to distract from them. I am most certainly not in cahoots with PaulClem on this... I made a point of mentioning those two posts as worthwhile reading, in my opinion, especially for anyone who might be thinking of getting involved with a teaching that is to be kept secret, and/or that one is to be pressured against giving up. Here's the link to them again:

http://www.online-literature.com/for...74#post1156674

I agree. There are issues within all religions, and Buddhism is no different.

There is very clear guidance from valid Buddhist Teachers, including HH The Dalai Lama, that no-one should do anything that even appears to break normal rules and conventions, let alone Buddhist ones.

There is a great misconception about meeting spiritual guides. These are very special encounters for the person involved, but they are extremely rare - as in rare across a number of lives rather one life. The rarity, and a misunderstanding about this, has been capitalised upon by unscrupulous people who purport to be the real thing.

HH says:

"When teachers break the precepts,
behaving in ways that are clearly damaging to themselves and others,
students must face the situation,
even though this can be challenging, criticize openly, that's the only way."
His Holiness the Dalai Lama

http://viewonbuddhism.org/controvers...stionable.html

It's a sad fact for any religion to have people who exploit others good intentions. Goodness knows what karma they will accrue in doing so, but I think the fact that they do it means they really don't understand the consequences.

There are dodgy teachers around as listed on the link. HH is not one of them.

[ftil]

Oh, you have both succeed to move to another page.


I made a post on November 28 , 2011 to clarify my intentions for opening this thread. And you know it very well as you can see your post. I understand that your anxiety runs high…but take Valerian to calm your nerves.

I have been alone here for 8 months……Budhism and Hindu religion must be a sensitive topic.

I want to keep this tread as it was my original purpose to open it. I have moved art from Ovid and Metamorphosis tread that was a discussion tread not to have .... discussion tread. One of the reasons for doing it is the fact that mythology and religion is a huge subject and I don’t think that I will ever be comfortable to discuss it. Scholars who studied that subject in depth pointed out many contradictions depending what historian they take into consideration. For example, some historians believed that Venus was born in sea-foam from the castrated genitals of the sky-god Uranus whereas others believed that she was born out of egg. Similarly, Eros was a son of Venus in one myth in another a son of Iris.
I am more interested in finding the common themes or archetypes in all religions. Joseph Campbell who spent his entire career came to that conclusion. I have come to the same conclusion and I want it to be a focus of my explorations.

Secondly, I don't like influence people what I think. I prefer to ask questions than to look for the answer since when we accept a belief we close our minds for alternative explanations.

Finally, I have asked the moderators on Picture/Images How to tread to clarify about posting art. Some members interpreted the new rules as not posting art on the discussion treads. They continue posting art but I prefer to wait for the clarification.
My intentions was not to have a discussion tread and it would be sad this tread to end.
http://www.online-literature.com/for...=62728&page=10

Paulclem, you are on ignore list. since you don't understand what no means.

Hopfully, it will stop you to come here. If you want to talk about Buddhism open your thread and don't destroy mine.....Take Bill with you.....you are so alike...like many masons and occultists I met on other forums.


Scandals, corruptions, violence, or intrigues in Buddhist Zen. I wasn’t aware that it is that bad.

The Zen tradition has a history of famous drunken poets and masters.... Public encouragement for drinking in several communities where the teacher was alcoholic has led many students to follow suit, and certain Buddhist and Hindu communities have needed to start AA groups to begin to deal with their addiction problems....
Students who enter spiritual communities do not imagine they will encounter these kinds of difficulties (Kornfield, 1993).
[I]t became known that Maezumi [roshi/guru of the Zen Center in Los Angeles] had had a number of affairs with female students and had also entered a dry-out clinic for alcoholics (Rawlinson, 1997).
In 1975 and 1979, as well as later in 1982, the Zen Studies Society had been rocked by rumors of Eido Roshi’s alleged sexual liaisons with female students....
Nor were the allegations limited to sexual misconduct. They spread to financial mismanagement and incorrect behavior (Tworkov, 1994).

Zen teachers have an excellent method of dealing with students who start comparing themselves to Buddha or God [after their early enlightenment experiences, says Ken Wilber]. “They take the stick and beat the crap out of you. And after five or ten years of that, you finally get over yourself” (Horgan, 2003a).
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stg...apters/zen.asp

Hm….an interesting way to help students “ to get rid of the ego”

That, however, is simply a ludicrously romanticized version of physical abuse meted out in the name of spirituality. In reality, such “crap-beating” behavior only shows the tempers and tendencies toward violence of individuals who are naïvely viewed by their followers as being spiritually enlightened.

Richard Rumbold, an English Zen enthusiast, who spent about five months at the Shokokuji, a monastery in Kyoto, describes some savage beatings-up administered by the head monk and his assistant for trifling disciplinary offences (Koestler, 1960).

Such brutal discipline could, further, easily get completely out of hand. Indeed, as a true story told to Janwillem van de Wetering (1999) during his long-term stay at a Japanese Zen monastery in Kyoto in the early 1970s goes:

In Tokyo there are some Zen monasteries as well. In one of these monasteries ... there was a Zen monk who happened to be very conceited. He refused to listen to whatever the master was trying to tell him and used the early morning interviews with the master to air all his pet theories. The masters have a special stick for this type of pupil. Our master has one, too, you will have seen it, a short thick stick. One morning the master hit the monk so hard that the monk didn’t get up any more. He couldn’t, because he was dead....
The head monk reported the incident to the police, but the master was never charged. Even the police know that there is an extraordinary relationship between master and pupil, a relationship outside the law.

The scandals, often of a sexual nature, that have rocked a number of American Zen (and other Buddhist) centers in recent years may seem a world apart from Zen-supported Japanese militarism. The difference, however, may not be as great as it first appears, for I suggest the common factor is Zen’s long-standing and self-serving lack of interest in, or commitment to, Buddhism’s ethical precepts (Victoria, 2003).

As to the actual life and mindset of Zen monks in Asia, then, when seeking entrance to a monastery as a trainee the prospective monk will first prostrate himself at the gate for hours or days.

When asked why he wishes to enter the monastery, the monk should reply, “I know nothing. Please accept my request!” indicating that his mind is like a blank sheet of paper, ready to be inscribed by his superiors as they wish. If a monk fails to give the proper answer, he is struck repeatedly with the kyosaku until his shoulders are black and blue and the desired state of mind is achieved (Victoria, 1997).
Having been accepted into the community with that “desired state of mind,” even monks who were admitted just hours earlier will exercise authority over the neophyte, preceding him at meals and on other semiformal or formal occasions.
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stg...apters/zen.asp

Well, Socrates also said, “ I know that I know nothing” but he made a good use of his brain and arrived to that conclusion. He didn’t get rid of his ego either.

What, then, of the widespread enlightenment which one might idealistically wish to attribute to practitioners of Zen?

I once asked Katagiri Roshi, with whom I had my first breakthrough ... how many truly great Ch’an and Zen masters there have historically been. Without hesitating, he said, “Maybe one thousand altogether.” I asked another Zen master how many truly enlightened—deeply enlightened—Japanese Zen masters there were alive today, and he said, “Not more than a dozen” (Wilber, 2000a).

Thus, we have over a millennium of Zen teachers “beating the crap out of” their numerous disciples on a regular basis, to generate a scant thousand (i.e., around one per year, globally) “enlightened” individuals. That, however, would never be a reasonable trade-off, via any “calculus of suffering.” That is so particularly since such enlightenment primarily benefits only the specific person “blessed” by it, not the world at large.

In the Edo Era [1600 – 1868], Buddhist priests did not marry, but temples were busy places, and the priests in many cases were somewhat worldly. Women began living in the temples, to work and, at times, to love. They did not show their faces because they weren’t supposed to be there to begin with (Chadwick, 1999; italics added).

Otori [1814 – 1904] recognized that a large number of Buddhist priests were already married, in spite of regulations prohibiting it (Victoria, 1997; italics added).

[I]n Zen monasteries in Japan ... sex between men has long been both a common practice and a prohibited activity (Downing, 2001; italics added).
http://www.strippingthegurus.com/stg...apters/zen.asp

[Paulclem]

The problem seems not to be the religion, but the organisation of it by people. Where there are people there will be problems - as we can see easily.

If you want to post things that people are interested in, then why should anyone else not comment? You're not the owner, nor the owner of this thread, and the rules you quote mean nothing. Perhaps you should take the valerian.

[ftil]

The problem seems not to be the religion, but the organisation of it by people. Where there are people there will be problems - as we can see easily.

If you want to post things that people are interested in, then why should anyone else not comment? You're not the owner, nor the owner of this thread, and the rules you quote mean nothing. Perhaps you should take the valerian.

It is my last response. You time is up as I have zero tolerance for those who don’t respect others boundaries. I may repost my last post……..you may read a few times if you have reading comprehension.

I want to keep this tread as it was my original purpose to open it. I have moved art from Ovid and Metamorphosis tread that was a discussion tread not to have .... discussion tread. One of the reasons for doing it is the fact that mythology and religion is a huge subject and I don’t think that I will ever be comfortable to discuss it. Scholars who studied that subject in depth pointed out many contradictions depending what historian they take into consideration. For example, some historians believed that Venus was born in sea-foam from the castrated genitals of the sky-god Uranus whereas others believed that she was born out of egg. Similarly, Eros was a son of Venus in one myth in another a son of Iris.

I am more interested in finding the common themes or archetypes in all religions. Joseph Campbell who spent his entire career came to that conclusion. I have come to the same conclusion and I want it to be a focus of my explorations.

Secondly, I don't like influence people what I think. I prefer to ask questions than to look for the answer since when we accept a belief we close our minds for alternative explanations.

Finally, I have asked the moderators on Picture/Images How to tread to clarify about posting art. Some members interpreted the new rules as not posting art on the discussion treads. They continue posting art but I prefer to wait for the clarification.
My intentions was not to have a discussion tread and it would be sad this tread to end.
http://www.online-literature.com/for...=62728&page=10

If you have forgotten our last conversation, let me remind you.

It may help you.

Originally Posted by Paulclem
I posted my comments above with sincerity. I hope you take them in that spirit, though I'm not asking you to agree with them, just consider them.

I appreciate your effort to answer it. It was a purpose of this tread to bring information so that if somebody is interested he or she may explore it further. If people are interested in Buddhism they may also look at references based on which the book was written, and perhaps, read some of the work to make own conclusions. Therefore, I always post a link.
http://www.online-literature.com/for...t=62728&page=9

You have understood it on Novemeber 28, 2011 that I was not interested having discussion.

Enjoy LITNET........you will find likeminded people here.

[Paulclem]

It is my last response. You time is up as I have zero tolerance for those who don’t respect others boundaries. I may repost my last post……..you may read a few times if you have reading comprehension.





If you have forgotten our last conversation, let me remind you.

It may help you.






You have understood it on Novemeber 28, 2011 that I was not interested having discussion.

Enjoy LITNET........you will find likeminded people here.

I was responding to Billl. I didn't ask you to respond to me. If I want to post here I will - I think you misunderstand what boundaries exist on a forum. This is not your personal space, though I don't wish to disrupt the thread. Are you going to respond now in your peculiarly offensive way, or shall we leave it at that?

[Scheherazade]

~

This thread will now be closed.

Discussion threads are not any one particular member's personal property on this Forum.

If you do not wish others to contribute or respond your posts, simply refrain from contributing on the boards and consider blogging as an alternative.

~