When is cencorship apropriate?

[Stanislaw]

I was looking in my school library for variouse texts from different religions, however I was not able to find any, I asked the librarian why this was so and she replied that this is a PUBLIC school.

I also could not find many ideologies books, including books by Karl Marx.

I was wondering about wether or not this is constitutional, in my opinion it violates the right to freedom of speach. I am feeling that if I make a stink of it I might get grabbed by the ministry of thought (1984).

When is censorship going to far?

[Admin]

I think that is too far. The practice of religion shouldn't be allowed, but the study should. I remember studying all the major religions in highschool as part of my world history class. We even had posters of Muhammed, Buddha, Christ, etc on the wall.

Religion, for good or ill, is an integral part of society and no study of society could be complete without a study of religion.

[Stanislaw]

I agree with you, I was not practicing a faith, but merely researching allusions for an english topic.

[Demona]

why make a fuss about it? Use another library!
on the one hand i do agree that school probably has to have at least some information about the religions.
on the other, school is a public place - displaying books of such content might be eaqueled to propaganda therefore, just to be on the safe side, i believe, they do not have those at all. and there are minorities who are going to make fuss about the books about their religion and so on...and one more thing, i`ve never seen a school library that has Capital by Karl Marx or anything like that... actually, the point about propaganda goes here as well: you want to know about it - use other sources, found on your own...don`t involve schools. they have a lot of more complicated problems than that...

[ihrocks]

Balancing my roles as a current parent and a former journalist, I have to say yes, this is worth making a fuss about it.

If the school offers courses in literature and one is expected to do research papers, they should have the tools available to complete the assignment. Offering books about religion, especially if you offer a balanced selection covering all the major religions, is not proselytizing. In high school, as required reading, I was assigned "The Grapes of Wrath" and "Siddhartha." Now, how is a student expected to understand and appreciate those books if they are not allowed some access to reference material on Christianity and Buddhism? That is not the same as school prayer or requiring students to learn the 10 Commandments before they can graduate.

Where it gets tricky is when you leave the arena of religion and enter the realm of ideas. What books are appropriate to have on the school shelves at what age? Is "Huck Finn" an elementary school book? Is every child ready for "Catcher in the Rye" at 12 or 13? And if I think they are, what about the parents who feel otherwise? Is that censorship or respecting the rights of parents?

ihrocks

[Stanislaw]

I still believe that this material should be availiable, perhaps in its own section, that way the materil would only be noticed if one went into that section. I believe firmly in the freedom of speach, But I don't believe in forcing ones views on another persone. I am just really ticked off that needed material is not availiable to the students of my school, I am thinking a letter to the school board/ editor is a good idea. Any opinions?

[Shea]

I completely agree, and you should write that letter. Too much censorship results in very uneducated people. I believe that this is how prejudices occur. A fear of the unknown is ingrained in every human, the only way to beat that is to be educated!

[Demona]

Balancing my roles as a current parent and a former journalist, I have to say yes, this is worth making a fuss about it.

If the school offers courses in literature and one is expected to do research papers, they should have the tools available to complete the assignment.......etc.

as i far as i understood - the problem the young man has is that THE SCHOOL library does not have the books he`d like to read; however, the books can obviously be easily obtained in another library....i insist that we should not forget this point. so...i really don`t see any problem...the school does not give you an assigment and forbid to read the books you need to read. they are just not in the school library. obviously, if the man in question has grown-up enough to make fuss about it, he can also find another library, can`t he?
excuse me, but if i made fuss about every book i couldn`t find in my school library (i speak only of the books i needed to complete my tasks, not satisfying my personal wishes) i believe i wouldn`t have finished it at all.
life is cruel, i know =]

[Demona]

I completely agree, and you should write that letter. Too much censorship results in very uneducated people. I believe that this is how prejudices occur. A fear of the unknown is ingrained in every human, the only way to beat that is to be educated!

censorship leads to uneducated people? i`m sorry, but i do not agree with that statement. there is just one simple thing - if you really need to find something out - you`ll do it, notwithstanding censorship or what not!
generally speaking there is no censorship at all - cannot you find political books that were banned earlier?yes, you can easily buy them in nearly any bookstore, and it goes not only for political books. however, i do not see that many people actually READ these books, as well as i do see many uneducated people who are uneducated due to their being lazy, unwilling to stir a finger to do anything...the censorship has nothing to do with this.

[Shea]

Hmm, we may have to agree to differ on this, Demona. Like Admin, I remember studing different religions in high school in my world history class. If they require a course to study them, they should also require the library to carry the proper resourses. Schools are intended for education. And if you censor some of that education (as this school and it's library has evidently done), you wind up with a bunch of sheltered graduates who are suddenly thrown out into the world. This is when laziness of books generally occurs (for the average person) and they just feel around life learning by experience.

I'm not knocking experience, but wouldn't people progress better, if they already had the knowledge?

[Demona]

Hmm, we may have to agree to differ on this, Demona. Like Admin, I remember studing different religions in high school in my world history class. If they require a course to study them, they should also require the library to carry the proper resourses. Schools are intended for education. And if you censor some of that education (as this school and it's library has evidently done), you wind up with a bunch of sheltered graduates who are suddenly thrown out into the world. This is when laziness of books generally occurs (for the average person) and they just feel around life learning by experience.
I'm not knocking experience, but wouldn't people progress better, if they already had the knowledge?

hm...do you really think that if a person has the ready-made knowledge he would progress? i`d suggest that the progress would stop. people would have the knowledge they need (ok i`m talking about the majority now) so they have the knowledge, they perform an action. doesn`t that remind you of some kind of a robot? a computer, perhaps? it has all the knowledge it needs and functions almost perfectly! "ask" it ..a computer to do something beyond the given information/knowledge - there you have it - Incapable! i`d suggest that the same would happen to a person. the aim of any school is not just GIVE information but also to teach how to LEARN and how to FIND the information you need esp. in contemporary society where the information flow is extremely fast. try seeing the problem not just from the point of view of a student but from the point of a school as well.

besides, i believe you are a grown-up person, as far as i could grasp from your posts about yourself;i belive that you know how it is in this life - no one is going to show you "the shelf in the library" where you can find solutions to your problems. so, one can start learning from the school age to be independent and capable of finding information and answers not within the walls of one`s little school.

[Munro]

hm...do you really think that if a person has the ready-made knowledge he would progress? i`d suggest that the progress would stop. people would have the knowledge they need (ok i`m talking about the majority now) so they have the knowledge, they perform an action. doesn`t that remind you of some kind of a robot? a computer, perhaps? it has all the knowledge it needs and functions almost perfectly! "ask" it ..a computer to do something beyond the given information/knowledge - there you have it - Incapable! i`d suggest that the same would happen to a person. the aim of any school is not just GIVE information but also to teach how to LEARN and how to FIND the information you need esp. in contemporary society where the information flow is extremely fast. try seeing the problem not just from the point of view of a student but from the point of a school as well.

besides, i believe you are a grown-up person, as far as i could grasp from your posts about yourself;i belive that you know how it is in this life - no one is going to show you "the shelf in the library" where you can find solutions to your problems. so, one can start learning from the school age to be independent and capable of finding information and answers not within the walls of one`s little school.

I disagree, because in my experience in being educated, the more I learn the less I feel that I know, and more different branches of learning and knowledge are made available to me because of my exposure to whatever topic I had been learning. I've recently been reading authors who are existential in their philosophy, and after reading one novel and learning the principles of their beliefs I read more by that author, and then another set of books by another existential author to see other perspectives and to learn more, and now I'm curious about dualists and nihilists...and I can see that it won't ever stop.

To compare the human brain to machinery, like computers, is an unfounded generalisation. I don't know much about how they function, but while there are some similarities in the areas of logic, problem solving etc. a computer is told what to learn, it is commanded to research and answer questions, whereas a human by nature attempts to seek knowledge by ways of understanding their place in the universe.

I agree with Shea's last post, the purpose of a school is to educate, and education is the most important gift an individual can have (in my opinion). A wide range of resouces should be made available to students to expose them to different perspectives, and censorship is ridiculous, unless it is an age/maturity thing as ihrocks pointed out. Luckily, I am take a Studies of Religion class at my school (my exam for it is tomorrow, coincidentally) and I have loved learning about world religions and religion as a phenomenon, and how it affects society.
Stanislaw, I think you should definitely write a letter to the library.

And Demonda, why bring age into this discussion? Granted that we're all reading, or educated, or thoughtful, I can't see why age should be counted in these forums at all. Adults can be just as ignorant and inexperienced as adolescents, and age shouldn't be a consideration in any discussion, it's just another form of snobbery, another 'ism', agism...completely mindless.

And if you're wondering, I would have objected to the age comment even if I wasn't adolescent.

[Munro]

the aim of any school is not just GIVE information but also to teach how to LEARN and how to FIND the information you need esp. in contemporary society where the information flow is extremely fast.

You are right by saying this, though, I agree. However, it is difficult to research and gain further knowledge if the resources are censored, and no government or institution has the right to obstruct freedom of knowledge.

[Shea]

I read Demona's post yesterday, but was too busy to respond, but this morning, I see that Munro took the words right out of my mouth (or in this case, right off of my fingers )

[Demona]

I disagree, because in my experience in being educated, the more I learn the less I feel that I know, and more different branches of learning and knowledge are made available to me because of my exposure to whatever topic I had been learning. I've recently been reading authors who are existential in their philosophy, and after reading one novel and learning the principles of their beliefs I read more by that author, and then another set of books by another existential author to see other perspectives and to learn more, and now I'm curious about dualists and nihilists...and I can see that it won't ever stop.

I believe that everyone agrees with the saying of the famous philosopher and according to the way you quoted this phrase it seems to me that you are trying to state that whenever you get a prepared set of information (instead of researching yourself) you learn more, am i right?

the comparison you are using to understand particular authors better is a very good idea, however, i do not see the relevance to the topic, whatsoever.

To compare the human brain to machinery, like computers, is an unfounded generalisation. I don't know much about how they function, but while there are some similarities in the areas of logic, problem solving etc. a computer is told what to learn, it is commanded to research and answer questions, whereas a human by nature attempts to seek knowledge by ways of understanding their place in the universe.

i believe that the question is not wherether it is appropriate or inappropriate compare a human with a computer. the point is the result that we have. a helpless person does not really differ from a computer.....
and yes, a human, an educated human, does try to understand the place of different notions and essences in the universe; however, being an educated person one would not like those ideas that he might come up with to have no theoretical basis or prove...therefore, one has to find the opportunity to have the access to the information. that is basically that i was trying to say - unless one is capable of proving the needed materials, one is doomed to failure.
and if one is not able to obtain the materials - it is not the school to be blamed. what if they had the materials but they, for example, all taken by other students. what to do then - write a letter that the school does not supply the needed amount of books? ha...

I agree with Shea's last post, the purpose of a school is to educate, and education is the most important gift an individual can have (in my opinion). A wide range of resouces should be made available to students to expose them to different perspectives, and censorship is ridiculous, unless it is an age/maturity thing as ihrocks pointed out. Luckily, I am take a Studies of Religion class at my school (my exam for it is tomorrow, coincidentally) and I have loved learning about world religions and religion as a phenomenon, and how it affects society.
Stanislaw, I think you should definitely write a letter to the library.

it is amasing how people can hear and not to listen...well in this case read and not understand...
let`s put it _really_ simple: are the books which Stanislaw needs available in the other libraries, book stores or elsewhere?
in case of a "yes": what is the problem then considering that the school might have its own policy regarding the minorities and so on...
in case of a "no": then i just dont understand in what kind of a society he live....

And Demonda, why bring age into this discussion? Granted that we're all reading, or educated, or thoughtful, I can't see why age should be counted in these forums at all. Adults can be just as ignorant and inexperienced as adolescents, and age shouldn't be a consideration in any discussion, it's just another form of snobbery, another 'ism', agism...completely mindless.

And if you're wondering, I would have objected to the age comment even if I wasn't adolescent.

Dear Munro, first of all, I would appreciate your spelling my name correctly.
Second of all, why bring in the age? because if you read my previous post attentively enough you probably understand that my point referred not to the age as such but rather to the experience that one acquires. there are just things with which you just do not encounter during your school years. and as my personal experince shows - such situations dont have a manual....you have to find everything out for yourself. and there are no libraries to write letters to ...to complain or whatever.
third of all, i do not remember saying that an adult is a priori cleverer and so on. and as i have said above, the point is not in the age but in the experince, and i`m sorry to disappoint you, but an adult, again i`m speaking about the majority, is more experienced.
i also must warn you that if by any reason you came to a conclusion that i am an adult - you are quite wrong.

can I please ask you to define the word "adult"?

just a remark: saying insulting things to one`s opponent equals to admitting one`s failure.