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Thread: LOVE BETWEEN JULIA AND WINSTON

  1. #1
    NIKO
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    LOVE BETWEEN JULIA AND WINSTON

    I honestly think that one of the most touching parts of the story was the love scenes between julia and winston. It was beautifully created by Orwell, the love conncection between Julia and Winston. He actually had me off my "seats" since it was so drastic and intimate. I didn't think Orwell should have ended the book with Julia and Winston both betraying each other. He should have instead made it into a total love classic, in which Julia and Winston gets married. Also by all means he should have demonstrated the later consequences a "communist-like" government faces, such as Oceania, by letting a foreign empire conquer it, since all "communist" forms of government later dilapidates (as a rule). In that way, Julia and Winston would be free to do whatever they want to do. I actually cried when Julia and Winston departed in the last scene. They were total matches for each other.

  2. #2
    No, he should not have made it a "love classic". That is not the idea of the story. If they had done that, they would have failed to conform. And conforming is the climax of the book, in my opinion.

    They wernt very good matches for eachother, they enjoyed the idea of betraying the government. They both wanted to resist in any way possible. The fact that Winston understands more than Julia is a mojor setback. You can see his dissapointment when he is reading the book to her, and she falls asleep. She is still a child, and although she isnt like others of her age, she is still slightly influenced.

    The book wouldnt have been discussed so much if the story ended with the way you would have liked it to. And I doubt that any country would ever conquer Oceania, let alone in Winstons life. Throught the wars, was any land ever gained or lost? No, there was never any proof. The government said there were "victories" but what were they, specifically.
    I understand how, but I do not understand why

  3. #3
    Registered User Teacher's Avatar
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    Not love

    Please don't think that there is any love or intimacy between Winston and Julia. As Orwell points out, there relationship is based far more in political rebellion than in any emotional love.

    I'd go as far as to say that there is some lust there, but this is not a love story.

    The only love here is the unconditional love that exists for Big Brother from his people.

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    The Poetic Warrior Dark Muse's Avatar
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    Yes I agree with Lexi and Teacher, they are bounded by thier need and want to rebell and resist against the goverment, but I do not think they share any true love with each other, as Juila has pretty much made it clear that she would sleep with anyone whom she thought she could just to snub her nose at the government.

    And Winston, though I think pehraps has some lust for Juilia I do not think he truly loves her, in fact as mentioned before there are instances in which he is annoyed by her, becasue she does not really take anything seriously and does not care about anything but acting upon her whims. Nothing else really matters to her.

    Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before. ~ Edgar Allan Poe

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    Nineteen eighty-four wasn't written to be a romantic novel. Orwell had a purpose, and for that purpose to be illustrated, Winston and Julia had to be in love. The relationship between Winston and Julia was necessary only for Julia to teach Winston how to love, and nothing more. The Party's entire plan was for Winston to learn to love so that they could eventually manipulate that feeling and direct it towards Big Brother. If the two lovers had ended up together, Orwell's entire message would be lost.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by NIKO View Post
    I honestly think that one of the most touching parts of the story was the love scenes between julia and winston. It was beautifully created by Orwell, the love conncection between Julia and Winston. He actually had me off my "seats" since it was so drastic and intimate. I didn't think Orwell should have ended the book with Julia and Winston both betraying each other. He should have instead made it into a total love classic, in which Julia and Winston gets married. Also by all means he should have demonstrated the later consequences a "communist-like" government faces, such as Oceania, by letting a foreign empire conquer it, since all "communist" forms of government later dilapidates (as a rule). In that way, Julia and Winston would be free to do whatever they want to do. I actually cried when Julia and Winston departed in the last scene. They were total matches for each other.
    i agree with you about the love scenes, they were delicious to read. The ending is perfect with it's stark reflection of human nature unraveled. the betrayal, a mere symptom; love, a mild amusement. i still think the woman who played Julia in the film is beautiful.
    Last edited by jon1jt; 11-23-2007 at 04:29 AM. Reason: add
    "He was nauseous with regret when he saw her face again, and when, as of yore, he pleaded and begged at her knees for the joy of her being. She understood Neal; she stroked his hair; she knew he was mad."
    ---Jack Kerouac, On The Road: The Original Scroll

  7. #7
    Registered User DaphneFree's Avatar
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    I Think Julia and Winston were in Love. Even if it was motivated by a need to rebel. After all we all fall in love for different reasons. In the end Love is more a decision than an emotion. From that perspective I think it can be seen as a love story in part. A love story with a tragic end of course. In this perspective I think Julia is much smarter or at the very least much more cunning than Winston. She is the planner and protagonist. Has been pushing the envelope against the party and been taking risks a lot longer than Winston. I got the feeling she realized that they were doomed the minute she left Obrian's apartment. She wanted to enjoy his embrace and she did. One last time. Julia was the realist,Winston was the hopeless romantic. If part two says anything it says the human spirit will always find a way. We will always question always rebel always seek and always risk. To fulfill our desire for love, connection, creativity etc. All of the things the party seeks to destroy.
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    In my opinion Winston and Julia do not love eachother. They like the idea that by being with one another they are going against Big Broter. I think the lack of love is clearly shown when Winston has a nightmare and tries to talk to julia. As Winston tells julia about loosing his family se goes back to sleep. This shows that there is truly no feeling in the realtionship.

  9. #9
    Registered User DaphneFree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monkeys View Post
    In my opinion Winston and Julia do not love eachother. They like the idea that by being with one another they are going against Big Broter. I think the lack of love is clearly shown when Winston has a nightmare and tries to talk to julia. As Winston tells julia about loosing his family se goes back to sleep. This shows that there is truly no feeling in the realtionship.
    Their relationship is certainly an act of defiance. I respectfully disagree. In the Winston and Julia sticky thread. There is some discussion on this. It was pointed out that Julia has no knowledge of life before Big Brother. I think being raised in such a way would leave her disconnected to Winston's feelings. Much the same way, Winston was completely emotionally disconnected from the person who lost a hand in the Prole rocket attack. He kicked it out of the way rather callously.

    So perhaps they are not "in love" in the sense which many describe. But I believe without question that they do "Love" each other. For all couples and relationships no matter how strong, those "in love" feelings ebb and flow. What sustains in the lows of attraction and yearning and all of the things that make hearts go a flutter is commitment. It is commitment and dedication which sustains.

    The beauty of the unorthodox love affair that is part 2, Is that Julia chooses to love Winston in spite of the consequences. Perhaps without a true understanding of love. (as it is understood from our perspective) Winston returns her commitment and remains quiet in the moments when you or I would be quite hurt if our partner acted in such a way. He continues to hold her and relish in her presence.

    Ultimately in part three Winston proves his love by holding out until the last moment in room 101. It was in fact his commitment to her that betrayed him to O'brian during his reprogramming. In the end both characters each in there own way show all the elements of true love . Commitment, sacrifice, dedication, and physical attraction.
    Last edited by DaphneFree; 11-16-2011 at 02:30 AM.
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    I'm going to respectfully disagree with DaphneFree. I think your wrong to think there is any love between Julia and Winston. Orwell puts this relation in the book to show us that the only emotion during a sexual act is defiance. They clearly did not live eachother. This is shown yet again when Winston doesn't even think about Julia after being arrested. They don't even have the ability to love. 1984 is a loveless society. That's what Orwell wants to show us.

  11. #11
    In my opinion you couldn't be more wrong about Winston and Julia being in love. They both needed a way to rebel against Big Brother and that was through sexual acts. Julia falls asleep when Winston tries to tell her about his past, it shows us that Julia doesn't truly love Winston or else she would have listened to what he was trying to tell her.

  12. #12
    Registered User DaphneFree's Avatar
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    Fair enough, Monkeys and The best student. Valid points and definitely the popular view. I suppose I am a hopeless romantic. In any case I believe love as an emotion is fluid. In the case of Winston and Julia I choose to believe they are in love or at the very least want to be even need to be. However the constraints of there loveless society leaves them bereft of what it means to love. It is just my view if course and good literature speaks to people in different ways. As to what Orwell was trying to say, I couldn't be certain.
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