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Thread: Thomas' Gospel.

  1. #61
    MANICHAEAN MANICHAEAN's Avatar
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    Coptic Saying 32.

    Jesus says, "A city built on top of a high hill and fortified can neither fall nor be hidden."

    Two immediate characteristics come out of this saying:
    1. The fact that it is built on an elevated site suggests perhaps a social, political, and religious superiority to other cities in addition to its strategic advantage over opponents.
    2. The need for fortification suggests that this city has enemies who wish to attack it.

    We begin thus to see a correlation between the individual isolation and solitude required to understand these sayings, with the combined public status of being placed in a high and visible place through the seekers understanding and knowledge.

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    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    It seems like it could fall, but it might be safer than most.

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    MANICHAEAN MANICHAEAN's Avatar
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    Another point worth noting YesNo is a lack of expansion in the saying regards going to heaven if it did fall. More of a morale booster to the troops.

    Definite general themes gradually emerge from these sayings, but it's difficult pinning a lot down when they are so short, and perhaps in no real order.

  4. #64
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    Perhaps it's good one can't pin them down too much. No matter how detailed we are it is still our understanding that is important.

  5. #65
    MANICHAEAN MANICHAEAN's Avatar
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    Coptic Saying 33:

    Jesus says, "What you hear in one of your ears, proclaim."

    The very fragmentary nature of this saying, leaves me with a number of problems.

    I can understand the saying pointing towards the public nature of the teaching i.e that the nature of these sayings and their interpretation requires that the seekers who understand them make public the knowledge gained.

    But then, in the readings up to now there has been this emphasis on individual interpretation. There appears now to be a contradiction between an individual value judgement interpretation and then proclaiming it to the masses as a definitive truth.

    Perhaps though the audience are like minded seekers who are being offered a point of view to assist them?

    The reference to "one ear" was interesting; as if the message was furtively whispered and not to be overheard? An "inner ear" might be another possibility?

    Finally there is an element of dark humour; at a time when we have the term "fake news," and social media channels allegedly profiling our hopes, fears & aspirations to influence how we think and respond.

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    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    The one ear seems strange to me as well. Perhaps it is an inner ear as you suggest. Maybe the proclaiming involves taking what one has heard seriously enough to tell others about it.

  7. #67
    MANICHAEAN MANICHAEAN's Avatar
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    Coptic Saying 36.

    Jesus says, " Don't fret, from morning to evening nor from evening to morning about your food - what you're going to eat, or about your clothing, what you are going to wear. You're much better than the lilies, which don't card and never spin. As for you when you have no garment, what are you going to put on? Who could add to your life span? That same one will give you your garment."

    The first observation is that this is telling the followers of Jesus not to worry about food or clothing, but rather depend upon the hospitality which God provides. Your time on earth is limited so do not lay undue importance on material things. It reminds me of Buddhist monks receiving alms & food donations in South East Asia, or even Hindu fakirs of an earlier period.

    There is almost an appreciation of nakedness being no big deal. Not exactly what the fashion world would like to hear.

    The interesting bit lies in the reference to "garments." Is there some evocative meaning here? Perhaps inherent in the coarse plainness of a monks habit, the baptismal garment of a new child, or even the bridal clothing for the wedding night?

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    [QUOTE=MANICHAEAN;1349784]Coptic Saying 32.

    Jesus says, "A city built on top of a high hill and fortified can neither fall nor be hidden."

    One who has mastered his senses, i.e., who has complete control over his senses (fortified himself with self-discipline) is truly enlightened one--- top on a hill/attained to wisdom. His life is his message (example)-thus visible to all!lov&regards
    Last edited by little-self; 04-01-2018 at 08:57 AM.
    The more i learn more i become aware of my ignorance
    Awareness of ignorance is wisdom

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    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    We worry hoping things will happen in the few ways we expect it to because we don't see or are afraid of the other ways in which it could happen just as well. We might as well not fret.

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    Dear M, Your contributions are invaluable. God bless u.lov&regards.ls
    The more i learn more i become aware of my ignorance
    Awareness of ignorance is wisdom

  11. #71
    MANICHAEAN MANICHAEAN's Avatar
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    Coptic Saying 37.

    His disciples say to him, "When will you be revealed to us, and when shall we see you?" He says, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you will not be afraid."

    This reference to garments, (or the negation of them) follows on from Coptic Saying 36. There strikes me as a strange, almost ironic, twist in he narrative. In Coptic Saying 36 we have this directive of not to worry about earthly things, ( food, clothing) as God will provide. Then in Coptic Saying 37 we have the disciples asking a legitimate question, "When will we see you?". To which Jesus sidesteps to focus not on "when," but "what" you will see. The interpretation would appear to be: do not be ashamed to be naked, as that is only the exterior appearance. If Man is made in God's image, then what is inside a man's character is more important. Clothes do not maketh the man. So much for the moral relevance of the fashion industry!

    Finally, I'm not sure how all this ties in with Adam and Eve's early nakedness, original sin et al. Comments would be welcomed.

  12. #72
    MANICHAEAN MANICHAEAN's Avatar
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    Coptic Saying 37.

    His disciples say to him, "When will you be revealed to us, and when shall we see you?" He says, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you will not be afraid."

    This reference to garments, (or the negation of them) follows on from Coptic Saying 36. There strikes me as a strange, almost ironic, twist in he narrative. In Coptic Saying 36 we have this directive of not to worry about earthly things, ( food, clothing) as God will provide. Then in Coptic Saying 37 we have the disciples asking a legitimate question, "When will we see you?". To which Jesus sidesteps to focus not on "when," but "what" you will see. The interpretation would appear to be: do not be ashamed to be naked, as that is only the exterior appearance. If Man is made in God's image, then what is inside a man's character is more important. Clothes do not maketh the man. So much for the moral relevance of the fashion industry!

    Finally, I'm not sure how all this ties in with Adam and Eve's early nakedness, original sin et al. Comments would be welcomed.

  13. #73
    The Gnu Normal Pompey Bum's Avatar
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    Well, it's certainly an allusion to the Eden story. Stripping is probably a reference to the flesh, which clothes the soul and which is left behind at death. So the answer to the question is: I will be revealed at death to those who are ready (unafraid, ect.) to lay down their bodies and so regain Eden.
    Last edited by Pompey Bum; 08-05-2018 at 01:02 PM.
    And this from a man in a bunny suit.

  14. #74
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    Thanks Pompey. A step further: the flesh clothing the soul.

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    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MANICHAEAN View Post
    Coptic Saying 37.

    His disciples say to him, "When will you be revealed to us, and when shall we see you?" He says, "When you strip without being ashamed, and you will not be afraid."

    This reference to garments, (or the negation of them) follows on from Coptic Saying 36. There strikes me as a strange, almost ironic, twist in he narrative. In Coptic Saying 36 we have this directive of not to worry about earthly things, ( food, clothing) as God will provide. Then in Coptic Saying 37 we have the disciples asking a legitimate question, "When will we see you?". To which Jesus sidesteps to focus not on "when," but "what" you will see. The interpretation would appear to be: do not be ashamed to be naked, as that is only the exterior appearance. If Man is made in God's image, then what is inside a man's character is more important. Clothes do not maketh the man. So much for the moral relevance of the fashion industry!

    Finally, I'm not sure how all this ties in with Adam and Eve's early nakedness, original sin et al. Comments would be welcomed.
    what?? do you really believe all this??
    I don't get it sorry.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

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