Buying through this banner helps support the forum!
Results 1 to 13 of 13

Thread: gender neutral debate

  1. #1
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    9,913

    Lightbulb gender neutral debate

    is it inclusion to deny what gender one is?
    please discuss
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  2. #2
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    916
    Blog Entries
    2
    What do you mean?

  3. #3
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Near Chicago, Illinois USA
    Posts
    8,652
    Blog Entries
    2
    I wonder if there is some gender neutral debate going on in Europe at the moment? Perhaps transgender people don't like being labeled as either male or female?
    Le cœur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connaît point. --Pascal

  4. #4
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    London
    Posts
    916
    Blog Entries
    2
    From what I understand transgender people just want to be called either man or woman - but some people insist on calling them the opposite. Then there are some people who identify as gender neutral and don't like either.

  5. #5
    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Kuala Lumpur but from Canada
    Posts
    4,119
    Blog Entries
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Volya View Post
    From what I understand transgender people just want to be called either man or woman - but some people insist on calling them the opposite. Then there are some people who identify as gender neutral and don't like either.
    Essentially, yes.

    Historically trans activists have worked in a two gender/two sex mindset. There is still a large segment of the trans community that holds on strongly to the idea of there being strictly two genders and that they argue that they have gender dysmorphia which requires a medical solution, i.e. sex change and hormone therapy. Classic trans activism was more about rights to medical treatment and legal standing (still relevant today where trans people are usually not covered by insurance and in the USA it can cost a small fortune for a person to transition for the good of their mental health). The rise of gender studies and queer theory in the 90s has lead to an upper middle-class sort of trans activism that views gender as an entirely social construct where the primary struggle is rather for breaking down social acceptance of rigid gender barriers. This has lead to new concepts like "genderqueer" where someone identifies as neither male or female. The latter group tends to sometimes push rather silly ideas but there are some strengths to their views as well. I generally agree with them that someone doesn't need to have a sex change per se to be recognized as genuinely trans.

    Personally, I think it's basic human decency to just call someone by whatever they identify with. Although, I sometimes find certain sectors of trans activism exasperating.
    Last edited by OrphanPip; 05-20-2017 at 11:18 PM.
    "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
    - Margaret Atwood

  6. #6
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Near Chicago, Illinois USA
    Posts
    8,652
    Blog Entries
    2
    I think the social construction of gender concept goes back at least to the 1960's which is when I first heard about it unless my memory is confused. It predates brain scan technology.
    Le cœur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connaît point. --Pascal

  7. #7
    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Kuala Lumpur but from Canada
    Posts
    4,119
    Blog Entries
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    I think the social construction of gender concept goes back at least to the 1960's which is when I first heard about it unless my memory is confused. It predates brain scan technology.
    Of course elements of social construction of gender are old ideas, and it is pretty evident that some aspects of gender are definitely the result of cultural influences. You can take the simple example of trousers, which have made the transition from a masculine form of clothing to a gender neutral one. Now a woman wearing trousers isn't at risk of having her femininity called into question.

    However, the idea of social construction of gender as an articulated philosophical position has developed largely since the 80s-90s and become dominant in the current debate about trans issues in academia within the last 10 or so years. This is when groups like gay and lesbian student societies became "Queer" groups or "LGBTQII" etc.
    "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
    - Margaret Atwood

  8. #8
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Near Chicago, Illinois USA
    Posts
    8,652
    Blog Entries
    2
    I can see how gender uses of trousers could be studied by a kind of "social construction of gender", but how does this more recent version of that idea view brain scans showing differences between males and females as well as between heterosexuals and homosexuals? I am thinking of a research survey by Brian Alexander and Larry Young, "The Chemistry Between Us".
    Le cœur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connaît point. --Pascal

  9. #9
    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Kuala Lumpur but from Canada
    Posts
    4,119
    Blog Entries
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    I can see how gender uses of trousers could be studied by a kind of "social construction of gender", but how does this more recent version of that idea view brain scans showing differences between males and females as well as between heterosexuals and homosexuals? I am thinking of a research survey by Brian Alexander and Larry Young, "The Chemistry Between Us".
    The physical differences in the brains would be considered elements of biological sex rather than of gender. Gender is the way in which we as a society regulate and determine behavior in relation to sex. Some have taken the idea of neurological differences to argue that someone can be mentally sexed as a female while having male genitalia. This would be the traditional position the trans community has taken in the past, arguing that being transexual is a medical condition that deserves fair treatment and compassion.

    Newer concepts of trans identity might instead argue that these scientific examinations are more just a tool of the established hegemony to regulate definition of gender as intertwined irrevocably from sex. Although, such brain scans I think do little to elucidate much about trans debates. I think most would agree our sex influences our brains, in terms of development and of hormone levels. There's no need to address them from a constructionist viewpoint because they define gender as wholly a semantic concept that can be separated from biological sex.
    "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
    - Margaret Atwood

  10. #10
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    9,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Volya View Post
    What do you mean?
    what I mean is
    is it a good idea to say i wont reveal my gender because one feel they are born in the wrong body?
    Last edited by cacian; Yesterday at 07:38 AM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  11. #11
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    London
    Posts
    9,913
    Quote Originally Posted by Volya View Post
    From what I understand transgender people just want to be called either man or woman - but some people insist on calling them the opposite. Then there are some people who identify as gender neutral and don't like either.
    of course but one cannot predict what tendency what one would feel or be.
    is it a good idea to deny their gender of birth is my question.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  12. #12
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Beyond nowhere
    Posts
    4,162
    I think often transgender people don´t know at the start that they are transgender. This is a theme of a current Brazilian soap opera. The girl was born to a mother who transformed her in the fashion child of the mode magazines. But as she grows up the girl more and more rejects the feminine aspects of her identity. She starts to wear her brother´s clothes and to disguise her breasts. As a counterpoint there is a male character too, who has already discovered "the woman inside himself".
    Hiding or not transgender identity depends on a lot of circunstances I think.
    "You can always find something better than death."
    Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, The Bremen Town Musicians

  13. #13
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Near Chicago, Illinois USA
    Posts
    8,652
    Blog Entries
    2
    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanPip View Post
    The physical differences in the brains would be considered elements of biological sex rather than of gender. Gender is the way in which we as a society regulate and determine behavior in relation to sex. Some have taken the idea of neurological differences to argue that someone can be mentally sexed as a female while having male genitalia. This would be the traditional position the trans community has taken in the past, arguing that being transexual is a medical condition that deserves fair treatment and compassion.

    Newer concepts of trans identity might instead argue that these scientific examinations are more just a tool of the established hegemony to regulate definition of gender as intertwined irrevocably from sex. Although, such brain scans I think do little to elucidate much about trans debates. I think most would agree our sex influences our brains, in terms of development and of hormone levels. There's no need to address them from a constructionist viewpoint because they define gender as wholly a semantic concept that can be separated from biological sex.
    It depends on what those elements of biological sex are. For example, given those brain scans do these academics still use the term "homophobia"? As another example, given those brain scans, do these academics still use the term "patriarchy"?

    Is there really an "established hegemony to regulate definition of gender"? I am a heterosexual male. Am I part of that hegemony?
    Le cœur a ses raisons, que la raison ne connaît point. --Pascal

Similar Threads

  1. Who won this debate?
    By t0sh in forum General Writing
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-26-2016, 11:27 PM
  2. The English Language Needs a Neutral Gender
    By cuppajoe_9 in forum General Writing
    Replies: 46
    Last Post: 11-27-2012, 10:04 PM
  3. Debate: Literature
    By Crapbuster in forum General Chat
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-15-2007, 01:50 AM
  4. Losing debate with my bf...help!!
    By dowriteme in forum General Chat
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-23-2003, 09:07 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •