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Thread: About animals

  1. #166
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    Unless we are experts in a particular field, we get science through secondary sources which I assume are reliable descriptions of the actual science plus speculations about what it means. I don't know if that is good or bad. There is only so much any of us can be experts in.

    I don't think there is a Freudian "unconscious". There might be a Jungian "collective unconscious", but the only benefit with that term is the additional collective adjective. Of course, I am no expert in psychology. I am just trying to philosophically make it possible for psi to be grounded in some theory. This would involve a global consciousness. Awareness is consciousness restricted to an individual member of a species. If consciousness is larger than the individual, then psi can be grounded in this global consciousness. It would also allow animals to participate in it as well. Empirical evidence from the senses would then be expanded.

  2. #167
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
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    The Freudian ¨unconscious¨ or the Jungian notion of "collective unconscious" are concepts which one might adopt or not IMO. I prefer them largely to the behaviorist or the cognitive models.
    If you are interesting in reading more about them:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud

    http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbana...d-lectures.htm

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung

    There is a simple experiment that ilustrates the idea of the Freudian unconscious:many people have the habit of absentmindedly summing or whistling a song. If one becomes aware of this, one notices that the text of the song or part of it is closely related to some emotion like fear, expectation or conflict one is experiencing at that moment.
    "You can always find something better than death."
    Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, The Bremen Town Musicians

  3. #168
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    One of the good things about behaviorist approaches is that they limit some experiments to what can be measured. The bad thing about it is that limitation is then assumed to be part of the reality being measured rather than part of the measurement technique.

    While looking at the Jung link, I saw this link to "collective unconscious": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious While Jung correctly goes beyond Freud's focus on the individual, he stays within the human species. The two anecdotes that we have discussed (1) the dog who knew when his master would return and (2) the whales who knew there was a dead human on board the research ship suggest this might not be adequate.

    If we assume those two anecdotes are real, what sort of theory of consciousness would that require? According to the Wikipedia article "religious critics including Martin Buber accused Jung of wrongly placing psychology above transcendental factors in explaining human experience". I assume the "collective unconscious" would not be adequate to deal with those anecdotes nor with the religious objections. Of course, we don't have to make that assumption of reality about those anecdotes, but then we have to assume they can be explained away, which is nothing more than making another assumption about them. From a behaviorist standpoint, something occurred; data was collected.
    Last edited by YesNo; 03-25-2017 at 09:48 PM.

  4. #169
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
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    Neither Freud nor Jung included animals in their theories(Freud also has a collective focus in later works like Totem and Taboo, Civilization and Its Discontents,etc).Those authors merely turned up in the discussion because of the word "consciousness'.
    As for both anedoctes, they would fit inthe same cathegory I think only if it was proved that the two behaviours have a paranormal reason. I am not sure that we have enough evidence in either of the cases. I am in favor for examining first the possibility of natural causes.In the case of the dog I already mentioned my doubts. In the one of the wales there is only a supposition. I think we still have to learn a lot about animals and ourselves.
    Last edited by Danik 2016; 03-25-2017 at 11:52 PM.
    "You can always find something better than death."
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  5. #170
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    "You can always find something better than death."
    Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, The Bremen Town Musicians

  6. #171
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    The royal flycatcher is a nice looking bird with the colorful crest.

  7. #172
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    I was reading John Groppe's "The Raid of the Grackles and Other Poems" and wondered what a "grackle" was. Here's a video showing grackles and blue jays up close. It is amazing what one can do with a hidden camera. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3gpU9dA_Gw

  8. #173
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    Lol. These grackles remaind me very much of our politicians, raiding all the time, while the blue jays humbly und fearfully take a tiny bit in between.

    And here comes family:

    http://www.wikiaves.com/irauna-do-norte

    The iraúna do norte is from the Quiscalus lugubris branch of the family. They live in the state of Amapá (far north of Brazil). When living near humans, they are very fond of the restaurant areas.

    Here is the poem, almost ilustrative of the scene above:

    http://indianahumanities.org/april-1...-john-d-groppe
    Last edited by Danik 2016; 03-27-2017 at 02:49 PM.
    "You can always find something better than death."
    Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm, The Bremen Town Musicians

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