Tentativas Perdidas:
Base Gotenks > Goku
Nozark:
No.
Tentativas Perdidas:
I guess Piccolo lied to us, then?
Nozark:
a) Piccolo immediately contradicts his hopes.
b) A main doesn't know how strong they are until they fight, once Gotenks does fight, he realizes he's weaker than he thought and Piccolo realizes the same thing.
Your logic doesn't make any sense.
Tentativas Perdidas:
a) Because Base Gotenks isn't stronger than Super Boo.
b) You're making a baseless assumption which is contradicted by pretty much everyone on Namek knowing how strong they were...Goku, Piccolo, Krillin, and even Vegeta when he fought First Form Freeza. Also, Cell.
Nozark:
a) Irrelevant.
b) Having high expectations isn't synonymous with knowing the full depths of your capabilities.
Tentativas Perdidas:
a) No, it isn't irrelevant. It proves Piccolo underestimated what Super Boo was capable of, just like half of the characters in the manga. Goku also underestimated what King Piccolo was capable of. Now what?
b) No, Vegeta knew exactly how powerful he was, which is the reason why he was sure he could win against First Form Freeza if he was backed up by Gohan and Krillin, who were around 250k at best case scenario. He also knew exactly how powerful he was after receiving that zenkai on Earth, since he was sure he could defeat Zarbon and Dodoria.
Nozark:
a) The basis of your argument is his reaction, which is immediately contradicted. Therefore it's wrong.
Gotenks believed himself to be equal to Super Buu, whom he believed to be equal to Innocent Buu, and he doesn't shift his opinion once Super Buu shows up. This coincidentally proves: Innocent Buu > Gotenks Base Post.
b) Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…”
Vegeta was banking on all three of them working together. Not his own individual battle power.
c) Kui: “W-with that battle power, if we teamed up w-we could at least manage something against Zarbon and Dodoria…!”
Kui told him that his battle power had become strong enough to manage something against them. It has nothing to do with knowing the full depths of his capabilities before being told.
It's humorous that you complete ignore the part about Cell, which completely debunks your assertions above.
Tentativas Perdidas:
a) No, it's not contradicted. Nothing contradicts Piccolo judging Super Boo wrongly instead of Gotenks. It can work just fine.
Gotenks never believed Super Boo was equal to Innocent Boo, at least not when he is going to fight Super Boo. Piccolo literally stated to Goten and Trunks one chapter before they fight that Super Boo was better than Fat Boo at everything
b) That's not even my argument. I'm arguing that characters know exactly how powerful they are, unless they directly state otherwise. Your example actually supports me, because Vegeta knows his own power and that's why he thinks he can win with the help of Krillin and Gohan. He was also confident at going against a hypothetical 2nd Form Freeza which was a bit stronger than First Form Freeza.
c) Kui's statement doesn't mean anything in regards to Vegeta knowing his own power. Are you actually saying Vegeta needed Kui to tell him how he would fare against Dodoria and Zarbon? Because Vegeta was actually telling Kui to look at his scouter before he powered up, implying that he knew how powerful he was.
I ignored the part about Cell because it doesn't debunk **** in regards to Vegeta and Freeza examples.
Nozark:
a) If your argument was completely true, than the basis for it wouldn't be contradicted, which it is. Therefore it's false.
The boys never noticed that Majin Buu powered up and they do not alter their opinion on the matter, therefore Innocent Buu is still the basis of comparison.
b) Vegeta stated: We can win! If the 3 of us fight together. Not 'I can win if I fight alone.'
Vegeta only ascertained that they could win after recognizing that he powered up more than he figured, once he had the opportunity to test himself out a bit. Also, Vegeta being confident about fighting second form Freeza doesn't alter the fact that he was banking on the support of Krillen and Gohan.
c) All Vegeta knows is that he vastly powered up: due to nearly dying on Earth, and this is stated several times: but that doesn't mean, nor does it imply, in any way whatsoever, that he knows to what degree.
What a weak argument.
The points about Cell debunk everything that you've stated because it shows that the main cannot possibly know how powerful they are until they test themselves out a bit and nothing that you brought contradicts that.
Tentativas Perdidas:
a) The basis of my argument isn't contradicted - Piccolo says Gotenks's really powered up and might be able to win against Super Boo now, which implies he is stronger than his Super Saiyan form from before. Then, Piccolo ends up being disappointed when Gotenks fails against Super Boo. All that means is that he could have misjudged how powerful Super Boo really was - but we know, at least, that he thought Super Boo was stronger than Fat Boo.
b) No, Piccolo literally told them Super Boo is stronger, so they obviously acknowledged it, They might be childish but they obviously are far from idiots. Stop trying to spin the manga.]
c) Nope, Vegeta didn't know Kui would be there, so he expected to fight against Dodoria and Zarbon alone from the start. Vegeta also knew his newfound power would completely flabbergast Kui, which implies he had at the very least a very good grasp of his new power.
d) Nope again, ONE guy(Cell) not knowing how powerful they are doesn't mean everyone else can't know how powerful they are. Generalization fallacy detected.
Nozark:
a) It is. Piccolo's reaction can be chalked up as nothing more than Gotenks getting stronger, but not necessarily stronger than he was beforehand since Gotenks Base Post never had the opportunity to power up or show what he could do when Piccolo made his determination, which is why, when he does do something, Piccolo immediately retracts his statement, falsifying your claim.
Simple.
b) Your assuming that the boys figured that Super Buu was stronger than Innocent Buu. They never state that they believe this to be the case nor do they state that Super Buu powered up.
Occam's Razor dictates that my viewpoint is the correct one because my viewpoint requires no assumptions.
Piccolo's acknowledgement of Super Buu being stronger than Innocent Buu is tailored to himself and not the boys. Arguing otherwise forces you to make a grand assumption because the boys never state that Super Buu had grown exponentially more powerful than Innocent Buu.
c) Vegeta did engage Zarbon and Dodoria in battle, but not at the same time, which is what Kui wanted.
Having a grasp of what you're capable of doesn't mean that you know the full extent of your capabilities, which you ironically agreed with.
d) Everything else that you've established has been contradicted and shown to be false, the example regarding Cell remains completely true because nothing invalidates it.
Tentativas Perdidas:
a) Nope, i've already said numerous times that Super Boo being the one that Piccolo misjudged can work just fine. Gotenks being stronger than his Super Saiyan form Pre-RoSaT can easily work.
b) The boys figured that Super Boo was stronger, because Piccolo himself stated it, and the statement was meant to correct them. Your viewpoint requires us to believe Toriyama is retarded and that the boys retardedly ignored what Piccolo said.
Also, it's Occam's Raz*e*r, with an E, and second, just by how you wrote it, i can tell that you don't have an idea of what it means.
c) Vegeta had a very good grasp of his power, which still validates what i said earlier, so your point is moot no matter what.
d) No, nothing i said has been contradicted. Stop toshing around.
Nozark:
And it can work the other way as well. So you are in no position to tell me that my viewpoint isn't consistent.
Arguing that Gotenks Base Post is stronger then his previous Super Saiyan form requires you to dismiss how Piccolo immediately retracts his own statement.
The burden of proof lies on you. If you can somehow, magically, come up with a statement that the entire community has missed: which directly states that Goten and/or Trunks suggest that Super Buu is greater then Innocent Buu: then you would have a point, until such a time occurs, Occam's Razor dictates the complete opposite.
You are incorrect: Occam's_razor
Occam's Razor suggests that the viewpoint that requires the least amount of assumptions is the correct one. In this scenario, Piccolo's admission of Super Buu being greater then Innocent Buu is tailored to himself since no statement suggests that the boys noticed any difference between the two.
Once more, a character having a grasp of what they're capable of doesn't mean that they know the full extent of their capabilities. All Vegeta has to know is that he's grown significantly more powerful than before, for example: his previously established battle power would be a 5 and his newfound abilities would be labelled as a 10, and all that Vegeta has to know is that he fits somewhere within that range, but he doesn't exactly know where until he has an opportunity to test himself out.
Your speculative conjecture, once again, requires more assumptions.
Tentativas Perdidas:
A) So you've pretty much confirmed it also works the other way around. In other words, argue about A here is useless.
B) About the Occam's Razor part, yep, that was a brain fart of mine. But still, what Piccolo said was actually meant to correct Goten and Trunks's assumptions that Boo only changed in appearance:
Saying otherwise is idiotic, because that's obviously what the statement is meant to be useful for.
C)Vegeta only having a grasp of his power still doesn't contradict my argument. Please read my posts before posting that wall of text.
Nozark:
a) It can work one way while simultaneously working the other way, however there is one lingering problem with your perspective, it requires you to ignore the immediate contradiction (from Piccolo) that it causes, which coincidentally means that my perspective is the more logical determination.
Piccolo knows that Super Buu is stronger than Innocent Buu, but neither Goten, nor Trunks make any statement that suggests that they are aware of this. Vague statements are not as reliable as specific ones, which you coincidentally fail to provide.
Your argument establishes that characters know what they are capable of unless specified otherwise, however, the example that you provided to prove this doesn't work because it can chalked up as nothing more than Vegeta being aware that he grew significantly more powerful then before, but that doesn't necessarily have to mean that he knows just how much more powerful he had become.
Tentativas Perdidas:
A) A statement isn't needed, because it's glaringly obvious. Piccolo's statement is meant to correct Goten and Trunks's assumptions, so a statement isn't needed. Statements are only needed when explanations are also needed, and in this case they aren't. This is really simple to understand and yet you're having trouble doing it.
B) No, that's not what i said. Vegeta had a pretty good grasp of his power. He was confident at fighting Zarbon and Dodoria, and knew his new power would be enough to make a fool out of Kui. This doesn't contradict my original argument whatsoever, so...SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE!
Nozark:
Statements are only needed when the perspective doesn't suit your beliefs. Otherwise, you are free to ignore the principals of basic logic, in favor of your contorted, biased, one dimensional perspective. However, a logical determination suggests that a statement is needed for you to validate your grand assumption.. It's conjecture, nothing more.
Vegeta knew that he powered up but he never states that he would exert a total battle power of 24,000, that's another reach on your end.
Tentativas Perdidas:
Hello, sir? Do i hear someone countering my arguments? No? Okay, must have been the wrong number then. Later.
I'm tired of explaining to you that Vegeta not fully knowing the extent of his power doesn't do anything to even budge my argument. Either come forth with a better argument or just stop replying.
Nozark:
I am countering your arguments by pointing our the weak points within them, the contradictions they cause and ultimately, the assumptions that they require you to make.
You established no argument about Vegeta other then to assuming that he magically knew that he had a battle power of 24,000, no statement suggests that. If you feel that that is incorrect, please provide the statement where Vegeta explicitly states that he has a battle power that high as opposed to knowing that he had simply grown more powerful.
Tentativas Perdidas:
You have countered nothing.
Vegeta had a very good grasp of his power - which is enough and has been my argument ever since the beginning, and it's why it doesn't contradict anything. Is it really impossible to understand something this simple? Come' on.
Nozark:
According to you my counters were not strong enough, but that is reflective of your bad habit of dictating that your viewpoints are stronger then others. Furthermore, I've already established that your viewpoint requires you to make an assumption and to ignore the contradiction that it causes:
a) Piccolo immediately retracts his statement about Gotenks standing any chance whatsoever.
You see? You ignore that to suit your beliefs. That's the fault behind your logic. My logic doesn't do that. Therefore my logic is more consistent with the story then yours is. You just choose to disregard that and assume things that aren't stated. or supported, because that's just how you are.
Having a grasp of his power and knowing exactly how powerful he is and what he is capable of are two different things. The burden of proof lies on you to show us where Vegeta states that his battle power is 24,000.
Tentativas Perdidas:
a) Because he misjudged Super Boo's power. It doesn't have to mean he misjudged Gotenks, and it doesn't need to unless you prove otherwise, which you won't.
b) The burden of the proof is not me on because i'm not arguing Vegeta knew his power to the fullest extent, so moot point again. Learn text interpration.
Nozark:
Gotenks misjudged Super Buu's battle power because he falsely believes that's he is stronger than Innocent Buu/Super Buu in only his normal form, which is immediately proven wrong.
Yes, you claimed that characters always know what they are capable of unless otherwise specified. That being said, Vegeta would therefore know his power to the full extent, but you just claimed that this isn't the case. You just contradicted your previously established logic and failed to remain completely consistent with your viewpoints.
Reply With Quote