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Thread: Another bombshell for Frau Merkel ?

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    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Another bombshell for Frau Merkel ?

    Does anyone have any thoughts on this ?

    https://youtu.be/tHoH25bwICw
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

    "Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.

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    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    I think it's ****ing awesome.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

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    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    I first saw Nigel Farage during the Brexit vote process. He was amazing. I am going to have to start paying attention to politics. As the guy said in the video, "Gotta love karma."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    I think it's ****ing awesome.
    I concur with my Canadian colleague.

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    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    Brexit [x]

    Trump Presidency [x]

    FN Presidential Victory [?]

    Gotta go for a 3peat.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

  6. #6
    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    I think it's ****ing awesome.
    So do I but, even as the Old World (dis ) Order begins to crumble, such an appointment seems too good to be true.
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

    "Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.

  7. #7
    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

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    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    https://youtu.be/5n8zn-R10qM

    Damn, even Torontonians are rising up against all of the PC ideologues.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    https://youtu.be/5n8zn-R10qM

    Damn, even Torontonians are rising up against all of the PC ideologues.
    I finished the video and immediately (within seconds) began watching the monolithic Sunday morning network news programs. The difference in terms of the physical experience of truth that Peterson mentions was like the feeling you get when you first get out of a pool and feel the gravity is pulling your body down. The colleague who had already fallen under suspicion and would not speak out because: "the cost to me would be near infinite and the social consequences would be zero" reminds me of our thread about the Salem witch trials and even an earlier one about the torture and murder of religious partisans in the 16th century. Speaking truth to lies takes courage and, unfortunately, sacrifice. But I'm encouraged to see people beginning to find the guts to speak up and stick together. Thanks, Clopin.
    Last edited by Pompey Bum; 11-20-2016 at 01:56 PM.

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    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    Glad you liked it. I've recently been watching everything I can on this guy, and he's clearly a national treasure. Toronto is genuinely ground zero for all of the rampant ideologies he hates so much too, which I find quite amusing. It's really refreshing, honestly, to see someone with a clear emotional reaction confront this insanity and make the firm declaration that: "all of these radical PC newspeak terms are flagrantly indicative of an extreme ideology that I hate and will never be a part of". I certainly wouldn't do that in public right now.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

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    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
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    I'm rather indifferent about the whole Peterson thing, it's being overblown by the media in Canada, which even mainstream papers in the most part supporting Peterson's views. However, I don't think his position is really all that daring considering his views are generally those of the majority. Even many trans activists I've known don't tend to support the new pronouns craze that started up about a decade ago as an offshoot of academic Queer Theory. Queer theory has always had a disconnect between the lived experiences of queer people (who are like most people working class, multi-ethnic, and diverse) and the ideas of queer theorist (who are predominantly upper class white people). I personally don't object to using gender neutral pronouns for people who prefer neither male or female one. It's not really a PC thing to me, I've known trans people who don't want to do transition surgery because of the cost to their health and their wallet, but who also have trouble seeing themselves fully as their desired gender because their bodies don't align. They in a sense don't feel male or female so they prefer a gender neutral term, or maybe they're still trying to figure it all out. On the other hand, I've also known privileged white kids who kind of seem to be latching on to trans identities as part of a craze. Being a little tomboyish doesn't entitle you necessarily to latch onto the trans identity and all the years of violent oppression those more visibly trans people have faced. I tend to roll my eyes at someone like that who wants to be called "ze". English already has a gender neutral pronoun used when the gender of a person is unknown: "I got a parking ticket the other day, they left it on my windshield." No need to invent new words when the capacity to acknowledge gender ambiguity is already in the language.

    I'm a little old school I suppose, I believe in the power of identity politics and community building. Labels and acknowledgement are important for minority groups, its a power dynamic to assert the right to name ourselves rather than go by the titles society imposes. Thus, I support legislation that acknowledges the rights of trans people to be identified by their gender of choice if they've gone through the process of having their documents changed. However, this control of imposing pronouns should be limited to agents of the state which have a duty to represent the values of equality and nondiscrimination that are charter law. I also think this is generally the thrust of the proposed legislation. The HRCs in Canada are a stupid subjudicial body that imperfectly apply the antidiscrimination laws which occasionally lead to absurd judgments which never should have passed judicial review, which is why most of them end up overthrown on appeal with a proper justice. No one has gone to jail under Canada's existing human rights legislation, the Human Rights Act is mostly about regulating federal bodies to maintain the secular values of the state.

    The antidiscrimination laws are important in Canada to ensure the state acts in an impartial way that upholds the secular values we've enshrined in law. Now the major issue with Peterson and all the ridiculous adulation he's getting from the professionally outraged right wing, which are just as whiny and ridiculous as the professionally outraged left, is that he is complaining about a non-issue. He's not going to be criminalized for not using gender neutral pronouns. Peterson is arguably employed by the government of Ontario as a UoT professor, but academics are not treated in the same way as most federal employees. The passing of Bill C-16 will change practically nothing in Ontario. The Ontario civil rights act already included gender identity and expression as a recognized minority. The majority of provinces and territories in Canada already have laws which enshrine these rights. Bill C-16 is similar to the same-sex marriage act passed a few years back, the majority of Canadians already live in territories where it was law, the federal government is simply normalizing the practice by extending it to federal institution. When gay marriage was finally passed by Ottawa only Alberta had not yet legalized gay marriage on its own.

    Will Bill C-16 criminalize Peterson's refusal to use gender neutral pronouns? No, it won't.

    Will Bill C-16 make it illegal to voice criticism of Trans people on moral and religious grounds? No, it won't.

    Will Bill C-16 make it illegal to incite violence against Trans people, such as the protections already accorded to racial and religious groups in Canada? Yes it will.

    Will Bill C-16 normalize banking standards federally so that a Trans person can more easily relocate to another province without having to use different identification papers in a province without legal recognition of trans people? Yes, it will.

    Will Bill C-16 ensure that a federal agency can not discriminate against employees on the grounds of being Trans? Yes, it will.

    Will Bill C-16 substantially change the current legal situation in 70% of the country? No, it won't.

    Given all of this, why is everyone getting their panties wet over Peterson swinging at windmills.
    Last edited by OrphanPip; 11-20-2016 at 02:54 PM.
    "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
    - Margaret Atwood

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    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    Given all of this, why is everyone getting their panties wet over Peterson swinging at windmills.
    Maybe try watching some of the Peterson interviews or some of the debates surrounding the issue, because he addresses basically everything you wrote out rather well. He's said on multiple occasions that the fact that this blew up to such an extent indicates that it has relatively little to do with Bill C-16 specifically (after all, as you admitted, he didn't do or say anything particularly revolutionary or inflammatory), and everything to do with the overwhelming, and stifling, culture of political correctness that's present on major North American university and college campuses.

    Thus, I support legislation that acknowledges the rights of trans people to be identified by their gender of choice if they've gone through the process of having their documents changed. However, this control of imposing pronouns should be limited to agents of the state which have a duty to represent the values of equality and nondiscrimination that are charter law.
    Not the issue. Peterson has said himself that he hasn't received all that much vitriol (and, in fact, quite a bit of support) from people he considers "classically" trans (those who want to alter the pronoun by which they're referred from he to she, or vice versa), but rather from people who are political agitators and subscribe to radical academic 'queer theory' doctrine. He hasn't said that he'll refuse to call a person who transitions by their preferred pronoun, but rather that he refuses to refer to anyone by these 'gender neutral' pronouns like xe, xer, xim, etc, etc.

    that he is complaining about a non-issue.
    Sorry, but give me a ****ing break. What's a non issue? Faculty are resigning from institutions as distinguished as ****ing Yale over 'unacceptable' Halloween costumes and their refusal to go along with all this nonsense. And you seriously think the HRC's are a 'non-issue' because nobody has served jail time? What a joke. I suppose losing your job due to bad publicity because some radfems didn't like your use of twitter is a total 'nonissue' for everyone involved. How about paying a $14,000 fine? It's important that we don't accept these precedents before people actually are jailed for speaking their minds. Your stance that: "well hardly anyone has actually gone to jail for what they choose to say, so until that happens it's just a nonissue" is pretty absurd.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_...s_in_the_1980s
    Last edited by Clopin; 11-20-2016 at 03:45 PM.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

  13. #13
    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    Maybe try watching some of the Peterson interviews or some of the debates surrounding the issue, because he addresses basically everything you wrote out rather well. He's said on multiple occasions that the fact that this blew up to such an extent indicates that it has relatively little to do with Bill C-16 specifically (after all, as you admitted, he didn't do or say anything particularly revolutionary or inflammatory), and everything to do with the overwhelming, and stifling, culture of political correctness that's present on major North American university and college campuses.
    I've read Peterson's own writing on the subject for Rebel media. My spouse is sleeping at the moment and I don't want to wake him, I'll take the time to listen to the interview in question later. I don't take much issue with Peterson over this nonsense, I think he's gotten too much publicity and too much scorn over something minor and inconsequential and it's done more to muddy any proper debate about the issue than it has to help. He was immediately picked up on as a rallying point for people to legitimize more radical and regressive views, even though he himself doesn't support those views. Likewise, he's become a target for radical idiots on the opposing side to attack for no apparent reason because they're also mostly after visibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    Not the issue. Peterson has said himself that he hasn't received all that much vitriol from people he considers "classically" trans (those who want to alter the pronoun by which they're referred from he to she, or vice versa), but rather from people who are political agitators and subscribe to radical academic 'queer theory' doctrine. He hasn't said that he'll refuse to call a person who transitions by their preferred pronoun, but rather that he refuses to refer to anyone by these 'gender neutral' pronouns like xe, xer, xim, etc, etc.
    Yes, but like I said above, no one is really going to force him to use those pronouns either. Did he ever personally receive a request to be forced to use those pronouns. On what legal grounds did he decide to voice opposition to something which no one has raised? Honestly, no one likes the oblivious special snowflakes who love to make up new little pronouns to challenge heteronormative society or whatever it is they think they're doing. They're naive kids who mean well because they see themselves as promoting diversity of identity categories to make people more comfortable. However, a very small number go overboard with the pronoun craze. I've taught these kids, they're not promoting a destructive pernicious ideology, they're just out of touch. They're not as radical as the anti-pc crowd thinks they are either. I taught the SCUM Manifesto in a college class about sexuality and radical texts and even the most burgeoning and unjaded little feminist will state outright that feminism needs to be inclusive of men and women. They aren't man hating rabid monsters like the alt-right makes them out to be. Peterson's hyperbole of language and pre-emptive supposition that he will be forced to use a neologism to refer to someone is silly. I don't like how he paints his opposition and I don't like how his opposition paints him either. There's a whole lot of arguing over non-issues at play that don't reflect any potential real fallout of this legislation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    Sorry, but give me a ****ing break. What's a non issue? Faculty are resigning from institutions as distinguished as ****ing Yale over 'unacceptable' Halloween costumes and their refusal to go along with all this nonsense. And you seriously think the HRC's are a 'non-issue' because nobody has served jail time? What a joke. I suppose losing your job due to bad publicity because some radfems didn't like your use of twitter is a total 'nonissue' for everyone involved. How about paying a $14,000 fine? It's important that we don't accept these precedents before people actually are jailed for speaking their minds. Your stance that: "well hardly anyone has actually gone to jail for what they choose to say, so until that happens it's just a nonissue" is pretty absurd.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_...s_in_the_1980s
    I didn't say the HRCs were unproblematic. I said they were stupid and their rulings don't usually stand up once something is appealed to an actual court. They are not a proper judicial body because the courts are already overburdened with other matters to resolve civil violations of the HR Act. Are they a necessary evil? It's debatable whether they do a valuable service in policing what we consider to be the standards of minimum decency in Canada. Bill C-16 is a non issue because it doesn't add anything new to the law, it's just standardizing the federal law since most provinces already include gender in their individual human rights acts.

    I also don't think the situation is as dire as you think. At Mcgill a few years back there was a case of a professor who was tape recorded by one of his grad students calling him a terrorist and finishing with a death threat. That professor didn't lose his job over it, and it barely made the news. So, a professor with tenure can still get away with racially motivated insults and threats of violence against students in Canada. I knew Prof. Dunphy personally as a student at McGill back in the day as well, and I was sad to hear about his case because he's honestly a generally nice guy from a small town in New Brunswick, he brought the class donuts for our final exam in our entomology class. However, even knowing the man and how nice he can be, the way he treated his grad student was unacceptable. Prof. Peterson probably has an equally rock solid contract with the UoT making him virtually immune to firing and free to do almost anything within reason. I have difficulty feeling sympathy for him. Most jobs offer far less freedom of expression than what Peterson is complaining about losing. McDonald's employees don't even get to choose what greetings they are allowed to use with clients, let alone pronouns.

    http://www.mcgilldaily.com/2013/11/p...ssment-ruling/
    "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
    - Margaret Atwood

  14. #14
    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    He was immediately picked up on as a rallying point for people to legitimize more radical and regressive views, even though he himself doesn't support those views.
    Yes, exactly, and these views are gaining momentum every day that this climate of political correctness is present, especially on college campuses. Peterson made the point that the calm and logical critique of one's ideas and opinions, especially within a university classroom, is a pretty fundamental thing when it comes to formulating one's viewpoints, and doing so accurately and critically. What happens when even relatively mild positions (I think there are only two genders, for example) are confronted with massive, personal, hostility (you are a bad person, shut up; I've seen this very frequently, and you're kidding yourself if you think PC brigades don't frequently engage in blatant racism or sexism) is that people are afraid to express their viewpoint in public, or at school, which is precisely where they should be engaging with other ideas and positions. This is why you see so much of the discourse turn online, where people get increasingly radicalized because their views are NEVER challenged, but only encouraged by the communities they interact with. I also don't agree with your position that there isn't a relatively large and vocal minority of PC thugs who are everything the 'alt-right' accuses them of being (just like I, a very right-wing person, do not deny that neonazis exist). Maybe you're just not using the right (wrong?) websites. Furthermore, I'm assuming you haven't taught any queer-theory, or related gender studies courses in Canada within the last five years, which is where and when this stuff really blew up. If I'm mistaken then I apologize of course.

    Honestly, no one likes the oblivious special snowflakes who love to make up new little pronouns to challenge heteronormative society or whatever it is they think they're doing.
    There are, unfortunately, entire 'academic' disciplines which revolve around pandering to, upholding, and contributing to to these specific viewpoints.


    https://www.tumblr.com/

    (For all the anti-white racism and anti-male sexism you can handle. Die cis scum!)

    http://boards.4chan.org/pol/

    (Fringe, radical, rightwing spawning point of the alt-right with nodes of neonazism, and a strong bent towards white supremacy. I should tell you that I've been a pretty heavy 4chan user for almost a decade now, and even as recently as three or four years ago the politics board was dominated almost exclusively by cultural libertarians, with none of this alt-right, racially charged, stuff that's the main focal point today. Do you think this is accidental? Did the cultural consensus of disenfranchised young men shift from libertarian to fascism by accident? No, it's a direct push back against identity politics which are unashamedly (proudly) anti-white and anti-male. And it's the exact same push back that we're currently seeing everywhere else. The FPO will win their election in Austria, and the FN will win theirs in France; meanwhile, everyone who can't seem to figure out why it's happening will be continuously shocked and appalled.)

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/...-muamba-tweets

    Jailed for racist tweets. I mean, come on bro. This is what you're tacitly supporting.
    Last edited by Clopin; 11-21-2016 at 06:42 AM.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    Faculty are resigning from institutions as distinguished as ****ing Yale over 'unacceptable' Halloween costumes and their refusal to go along with all this nonsense.
    Although I find these issues important, I am distancing myself a little from the conversation since it primarily involves Canadian norms and laws. As an American, however, I feel it important to note that Yale has always sucked.

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