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Thread: Classical Guitar

  1. #31
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    Famous? Yes, in their way. They were guitar heros before the term existed. Guitar has always had heros. I do not know why. Maybe because it is so personal and is something that can be carried. Yet I do not know of any flute heros in that tradition.

    Segovia was a guitar hero, as were Tarrega, Sor, Guliani and Aguado before him. They all predated the electric guitar. Segovia lived far into the electronic age when electric guitars took over the popular imagination, yet he remained a guitar god up to and beyond his death near the advent of the home computer/internet age. Other guitar gods live on, as well. Les Paul and Jimi Hendrix are not going anywhere soon.

    There is no doubt Segovia was the first international guitar hero. His stage was the entire world purposely. He had to bring the guitar to glory. He had to divorce it from a past he saw as ugly and demeaning to the instrument. Unfortunately, really, a single word symbolized this ugly past in Segovia's vocabulary--flamenco. Drunks who played and danced in the streets went by that name too. Because of what he had seen and heard while growing up and because that word had been used around him repeatedly as an instance of low culture, Segovia adopted this usage. As in his childhood, that word remained code for low culture.

    A century removed from Segovia's original battleground, it is diffucult for us now to appreciate his need for such separation of cultures. Who was this stuffy crank, we are apt to ask? But we are used to the guitar and have fully accepted it as a concert instrument and more, we are used to world music and every kind of fusion of cultures expressed musically. Segovia was before all that. By the time radio was half out of the womb he was a full master embarked on his destiny already the old fashioned way of touring. His aunt and uncle (he had been abandoned by his mother at four years of age) had gone so far as to state that guitar was not a suitable instrument for him to learn because it was the instrument of ragged street gypsies and drunken flamenco artists. Much of his bias symbolized by the word had been instilled early.

    In an interview I watched, Segovia later praised the beauty of the best flamenco traditions. By that time his mission was an unqualified success on all fronts. The war was not nearing its end, the war had been won. Segovia recognized all things of beauty. From listening to him play, from reading about him, from watching numerous documetaries and interviews, one gains the sense of how very intelligent Segovia was. I read on one of his album jackets as a kid that his intelligence and cultivation made it easy to envision his success in other fields such as diplomacy or education, had he not chosen the elevation of the guitar as his mission. I think this appears true.

    Make no mistake, the guitar heros were coming in a big way, whether Segovia was ever born or not. The world is fortunate and Segovia is fortunate that he came just prior to the electronic age, but by virtue of a long life and career his reputation remained parallel to it and was enhanced by it. He spread his word like no other had been able to before him. Like I said, I think the world is lucky that Segovia got in these licks for guitar as a concert instrument just prior to the guitar's second revolution. A guitar revolution was coming anyway, but without Segovia to lift the guitar to the highest levels of traditional concert and classical music, the world would have a different outlook on guitar. It would still be a positve outlook, I believe, but it would certainly be a different one than we have because of Segovia.

    * * * * *

    You mean that was just a little preface to guitar heros? I started out talking about Los Indios Tabajaras, and how they were guitar heros stemming from a different tradition.

    * * * * *

    A guitar hero has to have his signature sound that is instantly recognizable, something that seems to make him imitable, a handle, something unique about his sound.

    Picture late 1970's Summit county Colorado, and me having to literally pull the car over to the side of the road because on the radio was a new sound of guitar. It was Dire Straits on Sultans of Swing. That was a new and beautiful sound for rock guitar. Mark Knopfler became a guitar god. He did not sound like anyone else. One reason was that he was using a largely untried technique on electric guitar. This was long before such rock guitar gods as Jeff Beck converted so thoroughly to fingerstyle that they practically forgot they ever played with a pick.
    Last edited by desiresjab; 08-15-2016 at 10:01 PM.

  2. #32
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    For guitarists coming of age in the 1960's many different influences were available. Chet Atkins was technically advanced and covered the deep end of the popular pool, playing everything from stylized versions of vocal and instrumental hits past and present to popularized renditions of famous classical pieces, such as Malaguena and Chopin waltzes.

    Then came the surf music craze, which in its early stages was mainly an instrumental phenomenon at the highscool level where teenagers were forming bands. The Chantays of Pipeline fame and the Pyramids of Penetration fame, were two groups of teenagers heading the craze. The Ventures, of course, were the dominant guitar instrumental group of the time, guitar heros, and produced many hits and were in on any craze or hit almost as soon as it happened with another new Ventures album. All the garage groups tried to sound like the Ventures.

    Across the pond some of that same guitar instrumental world was available from the Shadows, who were less heavy on the drums and a bit smoother.

    Popularity notwithstanding, the greatest original popular guitar instrumental to come out of the period (or maybe slightly before it) was Apache by Jorgen Ingmann, a Swedish guitarist. This was a true piece of style, an absolutely new sound on guitar with a beautiful thematic concept which was expressed and mimicked perfectly. Of all the famous renditions since, none has exceeded or equaled the original for interest and musicality. His production is awfully hard to improve upon. Not quite a surf rock song, but I assure you it was played at many a teenage dance in those days. There was an instrumental side to popular music in those bygone decades that does not exist today.

    You never heard much of Jorgen Ingmann after that one big hit. Los Indios Tabajaras had only one great hit in North America, as well, around that same time within a few years. Maria Elena did not get played much at many teenage dances, for its complexity put it out of reach of most teenage musicians learning guitar by playing Wipeout and Tequilla with their friends.

  3. #33
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    I had to come back to correct my own errors on the last post. Jorgen Ingmann did not write Apache. It was written by an English Songwriter who may not have had a version. Someone recorded it and then the Shadows recorded it, making a few ripples only. Shortly afterwards came Ingmann's masterful version. How many touches of his own he added and how many from the original the Shadows left out, would be an interesting thing to know. All great versions since Ingmann have included the touches he added, such as the soprano echo after each line of main melody and his runs in artificial harmonics between melody phrases in the bridge.

    Two versions that really stand out for musicianship and effort at originality are the versions of Danny Gatton and Junior Brown. I heard a Mexican group with a nice version once, but I have forgotten their name. I have heard a few flamenco solo arrangements that were impressive and even stellar for performance but not quite up to the listening value one desires.

    There is great stuff in every genre, not just classical. That is something I knew and appreciated early.

  4. #34
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    What does it take to be one of the world's top classical guitarists? Not what do you have to go through, but what do you have to be able to do?

    To make the starting line, you have to be able to get through the most difficult pieces flawlessly, in terms of sounding every note in the right place, every note being clear.

    That alone will eliminate many fine classical guitarists from consideration from such an elite list. Tiny errors in monsterously difficult pieces are not noticeable by "civilians," but are easily heard by those in the know. I can make detailed observations about guitar performances in which my most subtle points would be lost on civilians. In this case civilian probably means anyone who has not studied classical guitar seriously, and for at least a few years, for I guarantee you my same observations on the differences between high level piano performances would be totally useless. I would not be capable of the most subtle observations. Concerning myself, only on guitar could my observations be of much use. I do not understand any other instrument well enough, though I play a couple of other stringed instruments well enough to have been paid for playing them on a few occasions.

    I know quite a bit about guitar, but there are people half my age who know a lot more. I play rather decently, but there are people half my age who play rather greatly.

    You have what you have, you did with it what you did with it. Certain discilplines require everything to go right from an early age, at least they do by reputation. By comment consent (old school) no person can ever become a first rate concert pianist who has not begun the serious study of piano by the late age of nine, even if they have been a whiz on something as close as accordian since they were five or six and were so small they had to use a stand for it.

    Barriers are made to be broken, right? I am sure the one above is generally true for the young accordian player with less than Mozartian talent. What about the other kind of talent, though? Two historical rumors of duplicate nature which always fascinated me were that both Bach and Mozart were considered among the finest violinists in Europe during their respective lifetimes, though neither one played the violin. Stop! What?

    Well, (I pulled out of Pittsburg headin' down that eastern seaboard) it is not precisely true they did not play violin, or they would never have been rumored to be the best. Neither devoted himself to the playing of violin. Mozart, of course, could play anything on sight, and both men understood all instruments perfectly from a compositional perspective, such as range and technical limitations. Mozart's father had also been a top violinist, so of course he had the instrument in his hands many times. Both men stretched the limits of the orchestral instruments in their compositions. When violinists complained that their parts were impossible, both Bach and Mozart are recorded to have demonstrated with perfect extemporaneous fluidity on the violin that the part was indeed not impossible but playable with the utmost feeling and exactitude.

    So, how old might a great concert pianist start? Who knows, is probably the correct answer. Too many variables. Same for guitar, I assume. A teacher cannot play God.

    * * * * *

    Those that made the cut are at the starting line. The race consists in the individual perfomances of what all can play without mistakes. Each guitarist at the line has near perfect mechanics. Yet even the untrained listener is able to form an opinion on who got the most out of the same piece. The contest goes on over many pieces that they all play in common. Soon you may be able to choose an overall favorite, though you might prefer someone else's version of a particular piece.

    Other values can easily get in the way of a pure decision on your part. For instance, you would not make your mind up based on the music a guitarist chose to record in deciding if you thought he was a "better" guitarist than guitarist B, but such a value could easily influence an unwary decision. Final judgement is best made on the individual interpretations over a wide body of identical work.

    In the end it is about who sounds best. Perhaps expression and color are just fancier words for soul, details of soul. But the art of performance is something some great artists study under maestros for years. Sharon Isbin spent a decade learning Baroque performance and interpretation. You cannot listen to her perform Vivaldi's lute concerto without realizing how profoundly she benefitted from scholarly drive. She livens that piece up magically even for those familiar with its traditional performance (I was scheduled to perform this concerto with an orchestra in high school until the event got cancelled) because one can place full trust in her extra embellishment. She explains that she feels baroque performers would have played their pieces more loosely than the frozen interpretations we grew up on. I find her ideas acceptable and her interpretation of baroque music magical to my ears. She makes my list. She finished the race and wins a medal.

    Another classical guitar heroine who makes my list is Liona Boyd of Canada. I prefer her version of Cancion de la Hilandera to anyone's I have heard. It means much when a performing artist can put their stamp on even one classic piece of music. Her interptretation has more sensitivity to it.

    There are more than a few guitar heroines worthy of consideration. I do not even know all of them in detail. Many, these days, seem to be from eastern Europe. The mechanical mastery I see is pretty impressive. There was a time not many decades ago when a favorite "truism" of those who rely on tradition was that women would never play classical guitar at the highest levels because, for one reason, they lacked the wrist strength. Kiss that truism goodbye. Barriers are made to be smashed.
    Last edited by desiresjab; 08-17-2016 at 04:26 AM.

  5. #35
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    Our mythical list of "greatest" classical guitar players may as well include the dead players we have enough quality recordings of to make our judgements reasonable. Segovia, Bream, Williams and Parkening are still the high acheivers, the four horsemen of classical guitar.

    In a world overly focused on mechanical technique, no one is likely to exceed the perfection of John Williams anyway, when it comes to performing the classics of our sample set.

    When it comes to constant variety of color, the Gauguinesque palette of Segovia still has no rival. The sharp tonal contrasts of Bream would seem easier to produce, but he remains the master of employing them in a way that sounds organic rather than affected. Parkening scores high in all categories.

    * * * * *

    Perfect mechanical execution requires what I call musical athleticism. You have to be athletic enough on the instrument to perform the most difficult passages flawlessly, we already know that. If it is super fast, you have to be able to play that fast, and flawlessly. There are even different levels of flawlessness, however. How easily a performer plays the bare execution that it takes to qualify, is a strong indication whether they can do more. The best musical athletes have a crisper delivery, their notes sparkle more. They are able to do more beyond the minumum qualifying appearance because the minumum to be great is so easy for them now. They are complete masters, and also the greatest musical athletes in the classical guitar game, not coincidentally.

    Names of great players always get left out, but none were the musical athletes of the four above, I feel pretty confident. They were considered the very best because they actually were the best. The ease with which they play allows them more flexibility to experiment with tone and expression.

    * * * * *

    I believe Segovia's huge sound may have come from another factor--his huge fingers. The fingers were long but this was partially disguised by their fatness. The fingers were so fat they appeared badly swollen. They did taper as they approached the tips, but nothing like to the size of a normal finger. They were huge. I think this means Segovia could vary more the amount of surface he used in striking the string with his right hand fingers. Tiny fingers may be doomed to sound tiny with regard to the variety of tone they can produce, if not for dynamical limitation as well.

    One very steep mountain players of the 21st century face is that players of the 20th century left so little undone. They developed classical guitar perhaps to its maximum potential.

  6. #36
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    Last night I listened to about an hour of Enno Voorhorst playing selections from Barrios. The interpretations were celan and enjoyable. Tremolo is a technique where one can hear the differences between levels of expertise, and Barrios seems to have written for the tremolo frequently. In all players but a few, the tremolo will become uneven in places here and there or a note will drop out. At the super high level of player, John Williams still distinguishes himself for his tremolo technique. At times listening to his Recuerdos de la Alhambra I am reminded of the mechanical knocking of a woodpecker by Williams' tremolo. He has the most even tremolo in the business. This medal does not really belong to flamenco players, as one might think, but classical players, and Williams is the best of them at tremolo. His version of Recuerdos is not even my favorite version, but his tremolo is still the best in the business.

    It is too bad the recordings of Barrios playing his own works and the works of others are so terrible in quality. He must have been a brilliant player.
    Last edited by desiresjab; 08-19-2016 at 01:54 AM.

  7. #37
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    To encourage more participation I will post one piece of music played by all the major Players. Recuerdos is a great work that everyone plays but is wrong for this task, since it displays mainly one technique--the tremolo--and we need a piece with diverse techniques on display. La Maja de Goya seems to be a well rounded piece that most of them play. I will be back later with the links.
    Last edited by desiresjab; 08-19-2016 at 05:24 PM.

  8. #38
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    Here is La Maja de Goya, performed by six different artists. The recording quality and volume vary wildly from piece to piece, so you will have to keep adjusting for comfort. John Williams' version is faint. Both recordings by Segovia are mediocre quality, and both versions very different from one another. One is completely dry without any reverb. The other has reverb but is interrupted several times by a narrator. The Parkening version has vocals which come in at about 1:40. We never get to hear him play the wonderful chorus (?) section, but we can hear him play all the rest of it by himself.

    Perhaps people have a preferred verion out of these. Please let me know.


    Oscar Ghiglia--skip to 34:26

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU3vif14A3g

    Angel Romero

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjTM0ciuuNU

    Christopher Parkening

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_6ndPXG1Ho

    John Williams

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yd0z4uIc9o4

    Julian Bream

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5K5AscU1oc

    Segovia

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzWZElue7W8

    Segovia

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSlnhvYTB14
    Last edited by desiresjab; 08-19-2016 at 06:57 PM.

  9. #39
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    Since John Williams is the faintest recording, I really think it is a good idea to listen to all of the pieces at the volume at which you are forced to listen to Williams. This works much better for me when comparing the versions.

  10. #40
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
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    I donīt know everything about classical guitar but I enjoyed the Segovia version and specially the "gipsy" Julian Bream.
    Here is a Brazilian version by Sergio Barbosa in an old gold mine from Mariana:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8KWPHcnAnA
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danik 2016 View Post
    I donīt know everything about classical guitar but I enjoyed the Segovia version and specially the "gipsy" Julian Bream.
    Here is a Brazilian version by Sergio Barbosa in an old gold mine from Mariana:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8KWPHcnAnA
    Everyone puts their own mark on the piece in some way, don't they? Barbosa may have added some harmomnics to a section. I prefer it slightly faster than some of the versions including this one. I thought the faster Segovia version was too fast.

    The opening of the piece with its muted thumps by the thumb comes off best from Segovia and Bream to my ears. In the video one can see that Bream is really slamming that bass string. I want those notes semi-stacatto, as most of the players perform that section and its repeat. Surprisingly, John Williams takes it easy on those notes. He does not slam them at all, and they are less stacatto. The cleanliness overall of his version brings out some gentleness residing in the music and missed by the others, but leaves one wondering, as usual, why he didn't do a little more to color the piece tonally.

    Everyone has quite a different take on the fast arpeggios of the coda. For cleanliness and precision, Williams stands out on those final arpeggios. No one comes close to him there, and he will allow no faking or blurring of that rapid sequence of arpeggiated notes, which is played twice. If only Williams had some of the palette of Bream or Segovia in him, he would be the greatest guitarist possible. As it stands, I guess that guitarist has not been born yet.
    Last edited by desiresjab; 08-20-2016 at 05:59 PM.

  12. #42
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    My mistake. The coda section with the fast upward arpeggio is played only once.

    Actually, Angel Romero plays that part twice. Personal stamps all over the place.
    Last edited by desiresjab; 08-20-2016 at 08:55 PM.

  13. #43
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    Here is a delightful little classic--Canarios--written by Gaspar Sanz around 1674, according to Williams. Do any two of them play it remotely the same?

    As usual, the recordings are not always perfect, and you will have to adjust your volume for each presentation. I like to show the artist playing it, but that is not always possible. What I prefer are the best audio versions I can link to. I do not believe Segovia ever recorded this one. I wish he had. One of the performers may make a rare mistake.

    Julian Bream

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AICNKYFIgxY

    John Williams

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyhF9KEiDsc

    Christopher Parkening

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdI2ldxXh68

    Angel Romero

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prCfgZRzHz4

    S. Gregoriadou

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prCfgZRzHz4

    Narcisco Yepes

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKKXlNV_350

  14. #44
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
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    I liked the piece in the different versions I heard:Yepes, Bream, Romero and Gregoriadou.
    I`m posting the Gregoriadou thread again as the other is a repetition of the thread above it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0G_ES9T04W8
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  15. #45
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    I attended the classical guitar school run by Len Williams ( Johns father ). It was over the Chinese restaurant near Leicester Square tube station. The group lessons were ten Bob in old money and we had ten Bob notes in those days. Each week we were given a short piece to practice and play for the group next week.

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