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Thread: Brits Out!

  1. #61
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecurb View Post
    Westmoreland's insults were (and were designed to be) "fighting words", to which no response except cowardly acceptance or a brawl is appropriate.

    I just listened to Farage, and his insults (although not the rest of his speech) were ridiculous. When he said that none of his listeners had ever held a real job, he was lying (he couldn't possibly have known) and pandering to the working class. The chairman properly took him to task for it.

    Also, anyone who associates "righteous knights" with "democracy" must be muddled in his thinking. Much as I admire the romantic concept of the Christian knight, neither I nor anyone who knows anything about it would find knightly duties "democratic" or even "independent".
    Westmoreland's context might have been different. I'm willing to leave him on a high pedestal as a master of the insult.

    You are right about Farage's claim that they never did a real job in their lives. Farage's claim was an obvious exaggeration and it was "pandering to the working class", but he was also implying that the jobs they are doing now are not real jobs, certainly not jobs he respects. When they booed him, he won. He got to them. And he did so without using fighting words.

    I think you are also right about historical knights, but I am only interested in mythical or fairy tale knights, damsels and dragons. That is what motivates people when they vote, not the issues. Most people do not even know what the issues are. They don't know the dogmas of the left or the right. They are participants in a myth.

    At the moment the fairy tale that seems to fit best the Clinton-Trump presidential campaign might be "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs". Snow White is Our Future. Clinton is the Queen who follows her Mirror of public opinion and will do anything, anything, including feeding a poisoned apple to Snow White to keep her supremacy. Trump is that bungling hunter hired to kill Snow White but who later takes a courageous stand and lets her flee. The Seven Dwarfs are the rest of us. Personally, I'm looking for a third party to vote for, trying to be rational, but I don't know what tale will influence me when voting time actually arrives.

  2. #62
    Ecurb Ecurb's Avatar
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    I don't know much about real knights, either (unless Roland, Oliver, Ogier the Dane, and Renaud count). So these (along with Lancelot, Galahad, Siegfried, et. al.) are the knights I was talking about. I don't buy your the Snow White analogy (although it's interesting). If we want to mythologize: I'll grant Hillary is a witch, not because of the mirror (Trump, not Hillary, is the narcissist, preening in front of the mirror, although no politicians are immune from that condition) , but because she has secret, magical, and evil knowledge (about e-mails and Benghazi and Whitewater); Trump is either the preening, jealous, vengeful queen from Snow White, or the Grendel character, ripping and tearing the flesh of his opponents and bragging about the size and strength of his body parts.

  3. #63
    Registered User prendrelemick's Avatar
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    On the plus side, we could be the first Country to win a Darwin Award.
    Last edited by prendrelemick; 06-29-2016 at 04:50 PM.
    ay up

  4. #64
    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    Truly life shall come to an end outside of the EU. Just gaze upon the decay of this colossal wreck, what was once Switzerland and is now only lone and level sand for miles and miles. Truly a terrifying portrait of what can happen to a tiny landlocked nation without the safety net of the European Union! Britain, a great power and one of the largest global economies in the world, won't last a week I shouldn't wonder.



    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecurb View Post
    I don't know much about real knights, either (unless Roland, Oliver, Ogier the Dane, and Renaud count). So these (along with Lancelot, Galahad, Siegfried, et. al.) are the knights I was talking about. I don't buy your the Snow White analogy (although it's interesting). If we want to mythologize: I'll grant Hillary is a witch, not because of the mirror (Trump, not Hillary, is the narcissist, preening in front of the mirror, although no politicians are immune from that condition) , but because she has secret, magical, and evil knowledge (about e-mails and Benghazi and Whitewater); Trump is either the preening, jealous, vengeful queen from Snow White, or the Grendel character, ripping and tearing the flesh of his opponents and bragging about the size and strength of his body parts.
    Trump's wealth could be used against him. I'll admit Trump as the courageous Hunter who saves Snow White in my earlier version is a stretch.

  6. #66
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    Lovely pictures, Clopin, crystal clear and sharp!

  7. #67
    Registered User DieterM's Avatar
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    What you leave out of your comparison, Clopin, is the huge amount of treaties that link Switzerland more than firmly to the EU (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switze...nion_relations). So Switzerland does have "the safety net" of the European Union. And the UK, I gather, will want the same. Most probably, though, they'll only have a place in the EEA (European Economic Area, cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area) which is roughly the EU plus Island and Norway (I'm not entirely sure whether Switzerland is part of this Area, too, although they did sign the Treaty). What is interesting in this context is that (I'm quoting the wikipedia article here) the "EEA is based on the same "four freedoms" as the European Community: the free movement of goods, persons, services, and capital among the EEA countries. Thus, the EEA countries that are not part of the EU enjoy free trade with the European Union. Also, '[t]he free movement of persons is one of the core rights guaranteed in the European Economic Area (EEA) ... [i]t is perhaps the most important right for individuals, as it gives citizens of the 30 EEA countries the opportunity to live, work, establish business and study in any of these countries.' As a counterpart, these countries have to adopt part of the Law of the European Union. However they also contribute to and influence the formation of new EEA relevant policies and legislation at an early stage as part of a formal decision-shaping process." Which means that, basically, the EEA countries have to integrate EU laws in their own national laws without being able to influence the decision-making that takes place beforehand. I'm not really sure that's what the "Out"-voters in the UK wanted, but I'm afraid that's what they'll get.
    "Im Arm der Liebe schliefen wir selig ein…" ("Liebesode" - Otto Erich Hartleben)
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  8. #68
    On the road, but not! Danik 2016's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamwoven View Post
    Lovely pictures, Clopin, crystal clear and sharp!
    Yes, DW. To me it looks lovely and not abandoned.
    "I seemed to have sensed also from an early age that some of my experiences as a reader would change me more as a person than would many an event in the world where I sat and read. "
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  9. #69
    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    I'm not really sure that's what the "Out"-voters in the UK wanted
    People keep saying this as if ignorance is some badge of honour, like their campaign was so unfathomable to your refined senses that it never even registered, or it was so senseless it would be IMPOSSIBLE to comprehend. Whatever, why bother commenting then? I know exactly what the out voters in the UK wanted and I know exactly what the IN voters wanted... because I followed the campaign.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

  10. #70
    Registered User DieterM's Avatar
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    I bother commenting because I can't let your ironic argument re. Switzerland remain unanswered. If one bothers comparing things, one ought to choose one's comparisons accordingly. If one wants to debate and not only "shoot off" a snappy and easy remark, that is. I'm just exceedingly happy that at least ONE person "know[s] exactly what the out voters in the UK wanted and […] what the IN voters wanted…". Until now, I thought only God was in the know. I stand corrected, dear Chopin ;-)
    "Im Arm der Liebe schliefen wir selig ein…" ("Liebesode" - Otto Erich Hartleben)
    New poetry collection available (Kindle and paperback)

  11. #71
    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    I can't let your ironic argument re. Switzerland remain unanswered.
    Sorry what argument have you answered? Switzerland is neither in the EU nor lying in ruins.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

  12. #72
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    As Switzerland did not have a 40+ years relationship that they decided to opt out, your comparison is not accurate. Of course it is possible to survive AND prosper out of the EU, many countries in the world do that. The question and worry is that the UK is giving up a relationship that has been there for decades and it will be difficult to find its own legs independent of the EU. Giving up old habits is always hard.

    We can, however, look at other countries who used to be part of the EU and later on decided to severe the ties.

    I strongly urge everyone not to let this conversation deteriorate; if you are unable to keep a civil tone and show the required respect towards others, please refrain from comment.
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  13. #73
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    I ran across an article today that summaries my own view of Brexit by Roger McKinney: http://seekingalpha.com/article/3985...dependence-day

    Now that the markets have recovered one can maybe ask some questions in a calmer light:

    1) Why were the pollsters so wrong about the outcome last Thursday? McKinney suggested the reason is because too many people told the pollsters what they thought the pollsters wanted to hear and the media was engaged in a culture war portraying the Leave side as "Neanderthals". Was that the case? I don't know. If that is so, the British media needs to examine how it treats divergent views or stop wasting time polling people.

    2) Why do people on both the left and the right like big government, big bureaucracy and big brother? This is not a liberal issue. This is not a conservative issue. Government and bureaucracy should be no bigger than it has to be otherwise a liberal democracy with the creativity that a liberal democracy provides is threatened. Besides, any more bigness than is necessary to achieve a reasonable objective is an economic waste. It is not progress.

    So how did the US get so big? I'm no historian, but it seems to me that it happened this way. People who speak English, Spanish, French and Portuguese and maybe some other languages went through a period of bullish expansionism centuries ago when they overran indigenous peoples, fought them, put them on reservations, made them learn their languages, made them use their currencies and subjected them to their laws. We are at the end of that period of illiberal expansionism. If the British want to continue it rather than taking pride in the diversity they offer the world, they should adopt the Euro and learn German.

  14. #74
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    My view of this is somewhat different from Yesno. Sweden has not adopted the Euro either, and for good reasons, it retains national control over its currency rather than handing it over to the Brussels Bureaucracy. This is true whatever political party is in office in Sweden. The Euro is a classic case of the centralisation of decision-making. Countries already in the Euro are lumbered forever with it.

  15. #75
    Registered User DieterM's Avatar
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    Clopin, first of all my apologies for calling you "Chopin" – I swear I’m innocent, automatic spell check mis-corrected it. I'm glad it didn't "correct" your name into something offensive.

    Well, I thought I had answered your Switzerland argument by talking about the EEA – and I was half-wrong. Half-wrong because the Swiss held a referendum where the majority voted against a membership in the EEA. Yet only half-wrong. The Swiss knowing their main partner in trade was the EU, they negotiated a series of treaties with the EU, the most important of which were the Bilateral Agreements of 1999 and 2004 (approved by referendum) which abolished a whole bunch of barriers (notably, EU citizens can move freely to Switzerland, just as they would in other EU countries). Switzerland joined the Schengen Area in 2005. Today, even if Switzerland is neither member of the EU nor of the EEA, the more than 210 treaties between the two entities (Switzerland - EU) largely contain the same content as the EEA treaties, making Switzerland a virtual member of the EEA. Most EU law applies universally throughout the EU, the EEA and Switzerland, providing most of the conditions of the free movement of people, goods, services and capital that apply to full member states. Switzerland even pays into the EU budget (2 billion euro per year, just as does Norway btw)! The important thing about these treaties (especially the Bilateral Agreements of 1999 and 2004) is that they are closely linked (Guillotine clause) so that if Switzerland decides to stop applying one of the Agreements, the rest of them is considered obsolete as well. This became important in 2014 when a referendum against "mass immigration" was held and won, forcing the Swiss government to ask that the "Free movement of people"-Agreement be renegotiated. This is not possible without jeopardizing the rest of the Agreements.

    All this in order to point out that even if Switzerland is not member of the EU, it has to apply most of the EU decisions (yet without being able to take part in the decision-making process). On the other hand, my – implied – question is to which extent these close links between Switzerland and the EU explain the economical health and wealth of the country. And the final question is how the UK will be able to maintain its privileged partnership with the EU after the Brexit (a very important question because once again, we are talking about a country whose main partner in trade is… the EU). I don't have the answers, mind you, and I guess nobody has them right now. All we know is that leaving the EU means that the UK will have to renegotiate the whole framework of its partnership with the EU. And I don't know whether the UK will be able to obtain better terms and conditions than those they had while being in the EU.

    Despite my “refined senses”, I cannot say Yes to the EU unconditionally. I hear and see and experience the same things the other “EU-citizens” living around me hear and see and experience. There are many things that should be improved if we want the EU to make sense, politically and economically. But I’m not sure that leaving the EU would improve any condition I might criticize today. I’m not sure that each country on its own would have a better stand in trade negotiations with economical super-powers such as the USA, for instance. Or in environment matters. Or migration matters. And I don’t agree with YesNo – it’s not about creating a big government, big bureaucracy etc. That would mean that there are people in Brussels deciding things without referring to the EU member states, and that vision of the EU is wrong. The EU is like it is because our national governments shaped it this way. Yes, the people we voted for. Of course, it’s always been their favourite game to negotiate and then agree with a decision or compromise in Brussels, only to come back to our countries and say “Blame it on the EU”. That’s easier than to take one’s responsabilities. But if we have an over-shaped bureaucracy in Brussels today, the ones to blame are our politicians, the Hollandes and Merkels and Camerons (or their predecessors) of this continent. You can’t blame the egg when you should blame the hens.

    Where "Brits Out!" is concerned – well, I firmly believe in democracy. The British voted (well, most of them; some didn’t bother, which is a pity; and some such as the people of the Isle of Man, Jersey and Guernesey weren’t allowed to, which is a shame), there’s a result, I have to live with it. That doesn’t mean I cannot say I regret the decision. I’d rather have the Brits in than out. Not for my sake, not for the sake of the EU, but for their sake. And I do hope that in this situation, we all see a positive outcome for the UK as well as for the EU.

    And dear Dreamwoven, just for the record, Brussels Bureaucracy has no say whatever in currency matters. Nor do the national governments. Anything concerning the euro is decided in Frankfurt, where the independent European Central Bank has its seat.
    "Im Arm der Liebe schliefen wir selig ein…" ("Liebesode" - Otto Erich Hartleben)
    New poetry collection available (Kindle and paperback)

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