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Thread: Brits Out!

  1. #151
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    You are quite right, Aylinn, about not giving the EU Parliament more power. The EU is not designed as a centralised unitary democracy, the design owes much to the interwar fascist states that were dominant in Europe, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and others.

    It seems the "Reply with quote" doesn't work either! I wanted to include your post in my reply, but it now cannot be done.

  2. #152
    Registered User Aylinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamwoven View Post
    You are quite right, Aylinn, about not giving the EU Parliament more power. The EU is not designed as a centralised unitary democracy, the design owes much to the interwar fascist states that were dominant in Europe, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and others.
    Not really, it was designed after WWII in Europe so that something like WWII will not happen again, so I think the idea of EU was good and noble. Besides the idea of giving European Parliament more power and making the European Union more democratic is not new and it is not like European Parliament is not slowing becoming more powerful. However, this means that the European Union is more and more like a nation-state.

    So on one hand giving European Parliament, where politicians are elected by people, more power would solve the problem of EU not being democratic enough, but on the other hand it means that EU, as a natural consequence, will become a federation and that is something that some don’t want to happen.

    So it is a basically a bit of a stalemate. EU cannot stay the way it is, because it will be accused of not being democratic. It cannot give European Parliament much more power, because there are those who will not like it either. Going back is not a good option too, because only together do all the European countries really count on a global level. Separately none of them is big enough.
    Last edited by Aylinn; 04-02-2017 at 09:35 AM.

  3. #153
    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamwoven View Post
    You are quite right, Aylinn, about not giving the EU Parliament more power. The EU is not designed as a centralised unitary democracy, the design owes much to the interwar fascist states that were dominant in Europe, Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and others.

    It seems the "Reply with quote" doesn't work either! I wanted to include your post in my reply, but it now cannot be done.
    There is enormous irony in the fact that it is the left-wing who are the mainstay of support for the EU when the original plan for it was promulgated by National Socialist Germany in 1942.
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

    "Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.

  4. #154
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    Perhaps it doesn't work in some countries. You seem to be able to "reply with quote" alright in your own country. It doesn't work in Sweden.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylinn View Post
    Thanks for pointing that out, I have corrected it. I know that many would be against it, especially right-wing parties. However, it is ironic how their accusations that EU isn’t democratic enough could be tackled by more integration and European Parliament getting more power, which is what they don't want either.
    It's not ironic at all. They don't believe that "reforming the EU" to be more democratic is ever going to happen, so they want to leave.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

  6. #156
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    Europe is no longer where the major conflicts in the world exist. it has gone world-wide. In fact, it has always been world-wide, especially since 1914. The USA, Russia (and increasingly China) have always been the main countries where the big conflicts take place. They are involved and have been for more than 100 years. So the EU has not contributed to peace but has become incorporated into the Cold War on the USA's side

  7. #157
    Registered User Aylinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamwoven View Post
    Europe is no longer where the major conflicts in the world exist. it has gone world-wide. In fact, it has always been world-wide, especially since 1914. The USA, Russia (and increasingly China) have always been the main countries where the big conflicts take place. They are involved and have been for more than 100 years. So the EU has not contributed to peace but has become incorporated into the Cold War on the USA's side
    Yes, EU is no longer there just to keep peace, though I disagree with the claim that it didn’t contribute to peace. It made the idea of war between European countries seem ridiculous. Besides, EU was actively involved in bringing and keeping peace in, for example, Northern Ireland. However, going back to my point. Of course EU is no longer there to just keep peace in Europe. It is necessary for Europe to count on a global level. None of the countries in Europe can separately compete with big countries like Russia or China, however EU can.

    The idea of Europe going back to how things used to before EU appeared, while very romantic, is just impossible. Even if EU disintegrates, time cannot be turned back and the world will never be what it once was. The problems that globalization brings will not magically disappear, so the best one can do is to prepare and make the best out of changes. And united Europe has a bigger chance of successfully tackling this issues than each country individually.

  8. #158
    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylinn View Post
    Yes, EU is no longer there just to keep peace, though I disagree with the claim that it didn’t contribute to peace. It made the idea of war between European countries seem ridiculous. Besides, EU was actively involved in bringing and keeping peace in, for example, Northern Ireland. However, going back to my point. Of course EU is no longer there to just keep peace in Europe. It is necessary for Europe to count on a global level. None of the countries in Europe can separately compete with big countries like Russia or China, however EU can.

    The idea of Europe going back to how things used to before EU appeared, while very romantic, is just impossible. Even if EU disintegrates, time cannot be turned back and the world will never be what it once was. The problems that globalization brings will not magically disappear, so the best one can do is to prepare and make the best out of changes. And united Europe has a bigger chance of successfully tackling this issues than each country individually.
    You seem not have noticed the dissappearence of the USSR and the dissolution of CzechoSlovakia back to their former independent states, not to mention the break up of Jugoslavia. The EU is also fragmenting despite German efforts to keep their hegemonic creation afloat and with the polarisation of rising nationalism and an increasingly discredited liberalism there is, for those of us who have read their history books, a distinct whiff of the 1930s in the air.
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

    "Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.

  9. #159
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    Suppose Scotland left both the EU and the UK, set up its own currency, government and defense, what problems would that create?

  10. #160
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    Thats still a hypothetical question, perhaps we should wait until to see if (a) Scotland votes for independence from the UK in the forthcoming referendum, and (b) if they then having done that want to adopt the Euro, join NATO, etc.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    Suppose Scotland left both the EU and the UK, set up its own currency, government and defense, what problems would that create?
    They wouldn't get their welfare money from England.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

  12. #162
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    It is true they haven't done it yet and they would lose some benefits from membership in the UK and the EU, but this looks like an opportunity to unwind any debt they might have and protect themselves from a possible EU collapse.

  13. #163
    Registered User Aylinn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emil Miller View Post
    You seem not have noticed the dissappearence of the USSR and the dissolution of CzechoSlovakia back to their former independent states, not to mention the break up of Jugoslavia. The EU is also fragmenting despite German efforts to keep their hegemonic creation afloat and with the polarisation of rising nationalism and an increasingly discredited liberalism there is, for those of us who have read their history books, a distinct whiff of the 1930s in the air.
    As I am from Eastern Europe, I can assure you that it would be damn hard for me not to know about the dissappearence of the USSR, etc. I can also assure that most comparisons that far right makes between USSR and EU is shallow at best.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    Suppose Scotland left both the EU and the UK, set up its own currency, government and defense, what problems would that create?
    Not my country but I'm curious - what's with all these 'referendums'? I know it is democratic, but do we really need this much democracy? Is it not better to leave these important policy decisions to the lawmakers we elect?
    Exit, pursued by a bear.

  15. #165
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    One of the reasons for the referendums is to silence those who want to leave the EU or the UK when the referendums fail.

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