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Thread: Is there a poetry in architecture?

  1. #31
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    Architecture, poetry meter , music , biological rhythm , economy and all types of visual ,oral and unexpected rhythms have one common denominator which is mathematics. Mathematics is the abstract common language that enables us to represent almost all types in the same way. This makes comparison feasible between seemingly two faraway fields of rhythm.

    Photo references :
    2- https://www.pinterest.com/pin/330029478919884078/
    3- http://www2.le.ac.uk/research/festiv...n/sudden-death
    4- http://jeb.biologists.org/content/215/17/2950
    5- http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ci...s/cycles09.htm


    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    I'm a tad smitten by these details. I've never truly understood prosody. Could anyone recommend some books on rhythm, metre and prosody in general?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmptySeraph View Post
    I'm a tad smitten by these details. I've never truly understood prosody. Could anyone recommend some books on rhythm, metre and prosody in general?
    I suggest this link:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZ1S1cl8JOw
    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    I was impressed by this you tube because of the general context that calls to think of mathematics as an abstract language that deals with different scientific physical fields, and shows the role it played in their progress.



    Most impressing is statements are those between 11:44 and 12:34.
    Quote : " Mathematics is all that it is . There is nothing else but mathematics.

    Many of my colleagues will say that it describes our physical reality. It is our physical reality.

    Our physical world does not have some mathematical properties; but has only mathematical properties."

    The implication of ( physical reality ) may sound to limit the application of math to physical science thus excluding Arts.
    That may explain the clear relations or analogies between magnetism , Electricity and gravity. Unlike the ambiguity of the relation or analogy between Architecture and poetry.

    He who believes the physical is fully controlled by mathematical relation should extend his belief to cover the unphysical products and activities of Man. Thus in - principle- Mathematics should fully describe poetry, sociology a, psychology and architecture .

    Arts benefitted from math but less than sciences did.. Had arts been considered as the "science of arts" and dealt with accordingly, there might have been a difference. At least, Jonathan Glancey would not have " crept out of Somerset House like a church mouse that had been spat out by cats" for saying that there is poetry in architecture.

    Coming to our topic of meters, I have a feeling that a lot of feasible progress though the study of mathematical properties of meters was lost.
    This might have been a result of the contrast impact on the English poets by their discovery that "they were doing something that was very different from that they thought they were doing"

    History of Ancient Greek by A.-F. Christidis



    The terms of English prosody were borrowed from Ancient Greek and Latin.
    The contrast between accentual English prosody and Ancient Greek and Latin quantitative prosodies may have left the impression that unlike the quantitative prosody, the English prosody has no mathematical features.

    https://www2.bc.edu/~richarad/lcb/fe...mpmetrics.html

    "English is a stress-timed language, French is syllable-timed. Poets in both languages made efforts to import the quantitative metres from classical Greek and Latin. In French these attempts failed in a very short time, and became mere historical curiosities. French poetry remained with the syllabic versification system, which is congenial to a syllable-timed language. English Renaissance poets thought they succeeded in the adaptation of the quantitative metre. But they were doing something that was very different from what they thought they were doing: working in a stress timed language, they based their metre on the more or less regular alternation of stressed and unstressed syllables, and not as they thought, on the regular alternation of longer and shorter syllables. They used the same names and graphic notation for the various metres, but the system was utterly different, and well- suited to the nature of a stress-timed language"

    I hope this thread will help the growth of a mathematical sense that deals with meters and may be other poetic features.
    I was encouraged by the number of those who read the thread.
    Unfortunately, there was only desiresjab and Danik 2016 participated.
    I will appreciate it if you leave your general impression about this topic.
    Last edited by khashan; 06-30-2016 at 06:07 PM.
    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    This is an excel graphic representation of two Arabic lines of Kamil meter.



    Meaning translation :


    A language that Allah granted iternity
    It's perfume is filling space
    It is shining with the glory of dhad letter
    And its honey is filing the mouth of time.

    There seems to be architecture in poetry.
    Last edited by khashan; 01-05-2017 at 06:42 PM.
    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/201...s-in-great-art

    German philosopher Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz once declared: “Music is the pleasure
    the human mind experiences from counting without being aware that it is counting."
    Last edited by khashan; 07-09-2017 at 03:07 PM.
    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khashan View Post
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    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    by Mr. Colin Holcombe

    I sent this link to Mr. Colin Holcombe . Following is his email in response:


    Dear Kashan,

    I’ve read the interesting blog posts, the Guardian article and checked a little on the internet. I don’t have the time, unfortunately, or the knowledge, to add much more than broadly agree with desiresjab’s remarks. It all depends on what you mean by poetry, or what you think is most important about the art form. If it’s the aesthetic sense that’s emphasized, then all architecture is poetry of some sort. It has to be if the building is not to be a complete eyesore. Medieval religious buildings, east and west, went further and incorporated a ‘sacred geometry’ which governed proportions of height, width, length, arch span and so on right down to geometric patterns in tilework and stained glass. There’s a large literature on that.

    Traditional poetry is also governed in part by aesthetics: patterns of stress or syllable length, stanza patterns, balance of argument, and much more. Poetry had to be moving, beautiful and express something worth saying. Contemporary poetry has somewhat forgotten all that, and can end up being only tiresomely clever. (That would be my assessment of the Simon Barraclough piece, incidentally: The Guardian does sterling service in bringing contemporary poetry to public notice, but the taste of reviewers can be alarmingly uncertain.) Medieval poetry, certainly in the west, but I’d imagine in the Muslim world too, often embodied numbers that had symbolic importance. Chinese poetry also has complicated rules governing tone, line and stanza lengths, which again go back to numbers, though the prescriptions are probably not overtly symbolic. Musical notes also have a number base in their pitch and harmonics. And so on. Whether your extensive analogies help in the appreciation of poetry, I wouldn’t know, but rather doubt it. Poets keep patterns in their heads that help them select the words appropriate to what they want to say, but they’re held unconsciously there, with the selection being a coming together of many requirements. On meter I’d only add that prosody is a fascinating but contentious field, though of course I’ve written about it in my free guide to verse writing at http://www.ocasopress.com/verse-writ...cal-guide.html (if of any interest).

    Please excuse this very brief contribution -- my time for correspondence is very limited-- but many thanks for alerting me to the many enlightening posts on arood.com.

    With all good wishes,

    Colin
    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmptySeraph View Post
    I'm a tad smitten by these details. I've never truly understood prosody. Could anyone recommend some books on rhythm, metre and prosody in general?
    Here are two suitable subjects to start with:

    http://howtowriteblank.com/the-begin...poetic-meters/



    Good luck.
    Last edited by khashan; 10-12-2018 at 12:55 PM.
    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by desiresjab View Post
    The scheme you are presenting will encounter much resistance. Just like the poets you encountered. Artists have an immediate emotional reaction to someone reducing their work to a number sequence. By implication, they could be reduced to such a scheme too.

    It smacks of f B.F. Skinner and behaviorism. For the natural application is manipulation of human emotions and behavior. If this underlying language does exist (as we both believe), it may never produce great music or poetry, but it has scary implications for mass control. Are people these days usually entertained by great music or films on high end systems? No, they watch The Godfather on something the size of a matchbox.

    People can be induced to leave quality behind for their own convenience. Computer art, music and poetry of the future may not be quite as good as what humans do, but it may be free of charge!

    The biggest thing to fear from this is not that humans may be finite without free will and their arts may lose quality, but what such a language refined would be capable of in the hands of the black ops folk.


    Dear desiresjab,

    Further to my previous comment, I find it necessary to distinguish between poetry and the science of poetry

    .
    Last edited by khashan; 10-12-2018 at 08:11 PM.
    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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    And not alike are the good and the evil. Repel (evil) with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend.

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