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Thread: JACOB ENCOUNTERS ESAU (again) GEN 32:3 - 36:43

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    Registered User JacobBenAvraham's Avatar
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    JACOB ENCOUNTERS ESAU (again) GEN 32:3 - 36:43

    PARASHA: VaYishlach (and he sent)

    GEN 32:3-36:43.................OBADIAH 1:1-21...................MATT 26:36-46

    Jacob is at the crossroads, ahead of him, his brother Esau, whom he had wronged so many years ago. That is one thing about being human. We seem to forget trivial things, but when we wrong someone, especially a family member, it stays with you, and it bothers you, deep inside, and will continue to do so until you make things right.

    Jacob graduated uncle Laban's school of Hard knocks, but HaShem had not forgotten him, and blessed him with cattle and a large family, made uncle Laban a bit jealous I believe. During this time, he learned a thing or two, you trick someone, someone will trick you, he learned that in the wedding tent, he pretended to be the oldest, when he was the youngest (when he deceived his father Isaac) then in the wedding tent, he thought he was getting the youngest (Rachel) when he got the oldest (Leah). That must have brought back memories.

    But during this time of work, experience, disappointments, mixed with blessings, Jacob had time to think, and he thought of his brother Esau, Yes, he would make things right, and it is biblical, it is called the Law of restitution. Jacob is in the mode of "Teshuvah" which is true repentance, and a change of mind.

    we see that he learns that Esau is coming to meet him, with 400 men! that sends shivers up Jacob's spine, Will he come to wipe him out? kill him and take his wives, children, and cattle as captives? this must be going through his mind, yet didn't he receive the promise from Adonai that he would be blessed? and that his descendants would multiply? yet he is fearful, fearing death at the hands of Esau, who would want to get even with him for cheating him out of his birthright, like, "payback time bro Jake, now you're going to get yours!"

    That seems like all of us at times, we know that the LORD wants to bless us, and will provide for our daily needs, yet we still worry about things, about circumstances, that many times, never come to pass. To worry is to cease trusting in God's provision for our wellbeing.

    We read that Jacob has en encounter with the Angel of God, during that night, some commentators say that it was Satan, (yeah right) I don't know how they come up with that, because Jacob asked for a blessing, Satan does not bless, he brings destruction, lies, and curses, others say it was the guardian angel of Esau, But I think most of us believe it was the Angel of the LORD, God in the flesh, just like He appeared before Abraham,

    How do we "wrestle with God and prevail?" interesting question. One could say that Jacob started out on his journey a fearful man, a deceitful man, yet he was God's man.

    he left the wrestling match a broken, and humbled man, resigned to follow God without question, I guess we could say that " wrestling with God and prevailing" is when we want to do things our way, and finally come to the understanding that God wants to do HIS way in us, and when we go through a bit of pain, sweat, tears, we finally understand, and say "OK LORD, have your way with me" I'll submit, that's when we prevail. Jacob got a new name ; Israel, and that land bears his name even today, and for ever more.

    The encounter with Esau is wonderful, but first he sends Esau gifts of cattle, to "right" the "wrong" Esau doesn't need them, yet he still accepts them, Jacob (Israel) feels better, they meet, fall upon each others necks and weep. Now hear this, This is what is in the "Midrash" ( a Jewish commentary) it says that the reason Esau wept was because he tried to bite Jacob in the neck (maybe he thought he was a vampire) and Jacob's neck turned to iron, Esau broke teeth on Jacob's iron neck, and that is why he wept (maybe he was thinking of the dental bill)

    But, we can allude to this, It reminds us of "Israel" as a "stiff-necked people" (an iron neck can not bend, it is indeed stiff) so, we can get that little bit of reason out of that commentary. We need to "bend" to the will of God in our lives, we are HIS instruments to work mitzvoth on this earth, we are clay in the potter's hands, We can be used by Him, or He will use someone else.
    ____________________________________________ _______________________________

    OBADIAH 1:1-21

    Edom, descends from Esau, and as Esau's descendants went against Israel, became Israel's enemies, God cursed them, Seir/Edom, is no more, only ruins remain, where the city of Petra is (In Jordan, we were there in 1999) Is where the Edomites lived, and now, the caves where they lived are bathrooms/toilets for tourists visiting the city. Esau gave rise to Amalek, then to Haman, and finally Rome, the first two are no more, and Rome is now a city that makes good pizza and entertains tourists, but no more world power.
    ____________________________________________ _______________________________

    MATTHEW 26:36-46

    The disciples were tested, right there in the garden, Yes, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak, which reveals our sin nature. They wanted to obey Yeshua, to stay awake and watch, but they still fell asleep, We can use that in a spiritual sense, our spirit can become dull and sleepy, when we ignore Torah study, and stop becoming involved in Adonai's work, when church/synagogue just becomes another thing we "just have to do" or are "just accustomed to do" our love for the LORD falls asleep, What does HE have to do to awaken it?

    Shabbat Shalom.....rabbi Ben Avraham

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    Your anti-semitism is so mind bogglingly offensive to all Jewish people everywhere, that I can't see straight.

    Why do you feel the need to purposely syncretize evangelical protestantism with Normal Judaism? Why do you feel the need to bastardize the beliefs of the Jewish people and force them to become evangelical protestant christians?

    Not a single Jewish person, now, in the past, or in the future, is, has, or will ever see Jesus as anything other than one of many false messiah claimants. If you think that jesus is or was a god, then you are automatically not Jewish, you are a christian. All Jewish people, everywhere, view christianity as Avodah Zarah and jesus as a "foriegn god".

    There is nothing wrong with being a christian (of any denomination or disparate philosophical outlook). What do you find so offensive about being labeled as a "Christian"?
    Last edited by HCabret; 11-29-2015 at 03:47 AM.

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    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
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    You keep claiming Jacob's posts are offensive to all Jewish people, but the only person who has ever shown offense is you yourself. You claim anti-Semitism, but Jacob has never attacked anyone; you attack him constantly, however. You project your own intolerance onto him and pretend it's his, so you can feel justified in trying to bully him off the forum.

    There's probably an interesting and educational conversation in your differing viewpoints, if you cared to have one.
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

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    Jacob is openly stating messianic doctrine. Messianism's stated goal is to convert all Jewish people to christianity. Messianism and messianic doctrine are widely viewed as anti-semitic by the jewish community. I have previously given several examples which back up my claim. http://www.online-literature.com/for...=1#post1308037

    I am willing to discuss further the differences between Messianic theology and Jewish theology and I am also willing to provide more examples of messianic anti-semitism if I am requested to do so.

    My goal is not bully anyone off of this forum. My goal is to coax Jacob into a discussion about the differences between his theology and Jewish theology and between Jewish literature and christian literature. I have stated prior that he (or at least his particular religious affiliate) is attempting to syncretize evangelical protestantism with Judaism. He is assigning beliefs to Jewish people which they all openly and explicitly deny and he is acting in a manner which is seen as being heretical in Judaism. He has repeatly used the tetragrammaton without understanding that the use of this word is explicitly outlawed in Judaism except by priests in the holy of holies inside the temple. I personally have no issues with the use of any word, but I am trying to make it the point that anyone who uses the tetragrammatton is violating Jewish law and thus precludes themselves from being Jewish themselves. He also openly casts jesus as being the Jewish messiah, a belief which is universally denied by all forms of Judaism.

    All I want is to engage in a discussion about religious literature and how it effects how we view ourselves and others religiously. This is supposed to be a discussion about the social construct of religion and the literature of said religions.
    Last edited by HCabret; 11-29-2015 at 02:42 PM.

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    Registered User Calidore's Avatar
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    I'm certainly not going to dispute the seeming contradiction of Jews who accept Christ as the Messiah. Though there are many more differences between traditional Jewish and Christian practices, which makes me wonder if religions like Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus (are these different organizations?) follow Jewish traditions with the sole exception of including Christ. The fact that Jewish officials decry the concept doesn't surprise me a bit; Catholics and the many forms of Protestants, for one example, all have officials who will gladly rail against any of the others for being clearly wrong based on Scripture.

    Isn't the goal of pretty much every religion to convert everyone else to their own "correct" version? But one can't be converted against one's wishes. That "stated goal" isn't in itself anti-semitic. Unless I've forgotten, I haven't seen Jacob himself post anything anti-anyone, but you on the other hand are aggressively attacking his beliefs and trying to suppress his postings. Doesn't that make you what you are decrying? Seems to me that someone who professes no religious leanings himself would be better served by asking questions and learning rather than trying to dictate, especially when you yourself don't actually practice any of the laws you're supposedly trying to enforce.

    It also seems to me rather ironic that someone would so vigorously attempt censorship on a literature forum.
    You must be the change you wish to see in the world. -- Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calidore View Post
    I'm certainly not going to dispute the seeming contradiction of Jews who accept Christ as the Messiah. Though there are many more differences between traditional Jewish and Christian practices, which makes me wonder if religions like Messianic Jews and Jews for Jesus (are these different organizations?) follow Jewish traditions with the sole exception of including Christ. The fact that Jewish officials decry the concept doesn't surprise me a bit; Catholics and the many forms of Protestants, for one example, all have officials who will gladly rail against any of the others for being clearly wrong based on Scripture.

    Isn't the goal of pretty much every religion to convert everyone else to their own "correct" version? But one can't be converted against one's wishes. That "stated goal" isn't in itself anti-semitic. Unless I've forgotten, I haven't seen Jacob himself post anything anti-anyone, but you on the other hand are aggressively attacking his beliefs and trying to suppress his postings. Doesn't that make you what you are decrying? Seems to me that someone who professes no religious leanings himself would be better served by asking questions and learning rather than trying to dictate, especially when you yourself don't actually practice any of the laws you're supposedly trying to enforce.

    It also seems to me rather ironic that someone would so vigorously attempt censorship on a literature forum.
    No Jews anywhere see Jesus as being anything other than one of many false messiah claimants. If you think that jesus was or is a god or a messiah or died for anyone's sins, now, in the past, or ever, then you are by definition not a Jew. You are either a Christian, Druze, Muslim, or Baha'i depending on the variation in which you view jesus.

    Messianism is widely viewed as being anti-semitic in the jewish community. I have backed this claim up with numerous examples in my prior postings.

    Judaism rejects evangelism, as do many other world religions. Evangelism, although not unique to chrsitianity, is a feature which distinguishes Judaism and christianity.

    I began by attempting to engage Jacob by questioning whether he knew the difference between judaism and christianity and if he was even aware that he was syncretizing the two, or if he honestly believed in some form of both together. All I have recieved since are non-sequiter responses and false pleasentries. Jacob has not responded to a single one of my points. I have not once attempted to get Jacob or any of Jacob's content removed from this forum. All I want is a discussion. I am tired of responding to his OPs and then not getting any sort of response. He is obviously a relatively frequent visitor of this site and yet virtually every post he makes is one starting a new thread. I want to have a discussion with Jacob concerning the content of his OPs, which is the whole point of this forum.
    Last edited by HCabret; 11-29-2015 at 03:09 PM.

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    Eiseabhal
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    He obviously believes in some form of both together. By the way not only Jews are Semitic so you are using that term in an offensive way. And you have demanded he is banned. Strikes me he is incredibly unlikely to convert you to anything. So you have dang all to fear. So what is your real aim here? Poor old Jacob. All that wasted energy to convert the unconvertible. As I said before he's trying to convert others. He can't get me though as I believe in the sun. Better than all these holy yarns anyway.

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    Registered User JacobBenAvraham's Avatar
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    Dear Cabret,
    Thank you for reading my commentaries, I wish you many blessings, health and prosperity for your family, and may G-d fill your heart with His Torah, His Love,
    Love you my dear friend,

    J. Ben Avraham

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    Quote Originally Posted by JacobBenAvraham View Post
    Dear Cabret,
    Thank you for reading my commentaries, I wish you many blessings, health and prosperity for your family, and may G-d fill your heart with His Torah, His Love,
    Love you my dear friend,

    J. Ben Avraham
    Apparently you are not reading my comments, because if you had, you would have read that "[a]ll I have recieved [from you] are non-sequiter responses and false pleasantries." I am not fond of false pleasantries and I am most certainly not fond of the attempts by messianics, such as yourself, to convert Jewish people to christianity. Do you have any intention of responding to any of the points which I have made concerning your posts or are you going to continue to ignore me? I would very much like to hear your thoughts and opinions on the multitude of points which I have made.

    Do you respect the absolute authority of the Oral Torah as all Jews do? Or are you choosing to violate the Oral Torah and instead to follow the non-jewish "new" testament? Why are you assuming that any god is a male?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eiseabhal View Post
    He obviously believes in some form of both together. By the way not only Jews are Semitic so you are using that term in an offensive way. And you have demanded he is banned. Strikes me he is incredibly unlikely to convert you to anything. So you have dang all to fear. So what is your real aim here? Poor old Jacob. All that wasted energy to convert the unconvertible. As I said before he's trying to convert others. He can't get me though as I believe in the sun. Better than all these holy yarns anyway.
    The term "anti-semitic" is widely used to refer to actions and speech which set against Judaism and the followers of Judaism. http://archive.adl.org/hate-patrol/antisemitism.html http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article....uleId=10005175 Virtually non of the victims of the holocaust were ethnically semitic, yet the term "anti-semitic" is widely used when discussing the holocaust. To whom is the term "anti-semitic" offensive to? Am I not allowed to point out instances of anti-semitism anymore out the fear of offending someone?

    I have not once demanded that anyone be banned from this website. Please do not put words in my mouth.

    All I want is Jacob to respond to my criticisms of his postings. I want an honest discussion of the literature which Jacob has alluded to in his posts and to discuss the themes and philosophies of both the allusions and Jacob's comments. Why does Jacob actively avoid engaging with other members of this forum? Why does Jacob avoid responding to the points which I made?
    Last edited by HCabret; 12-06-2015 at 04:01 AM.

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    Registered User mona amon's Avatar
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    You have not once discussed his postings, which are his thoughts on passages in religious texts (the old and new Testaments),exactly what we are supposed to post on this forum. Instead, you've been attacking him because of his religion and calling him anti-Semitic for no reason. If you were to post anything actually related to his posts, you will probably get a better response.
    Last edited by mona amon; 12-06-2015 at 12:46 PM.
    Exit, pursued by a bear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mona amon View Post
    You have not once discussed his postings, which are his thoughts on passages in religious texts (the old and new Testaments),exactly what we are supposed to post on this forum. Instead, you've been attacking him because of his religion and calling him anti-Semitic for no reason. If you were to post anything actually related to his posts, you will probably get a better response.
    I have backed up my reasoning for calling HIS POSTS "anti-Semitic". I have posted numerous instances of messianic theology promoting anti-Judaism. Please review my posts.

    I have not once attacked Jacob personally and have made this clear in a previous post. I am only pointing out that his posts and what I see as the ideology permeating the posts promotes anti-semitism.

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    Here are several more sources which discuss the anti-semitism of messianism:
    - Portland Jews Brace for Assault by 'Jews for Jesus' by Paul Haist (Jewish Review) May 15, 2002.
    - 1998 Audit of Antisemitic Incidents: Missionaries and Messianic Churches (Bnai Brith Canada)
    - Keeping Faith. Scottsdale Progress by Kim Sue Lia Perkes (Religion Editor, The Arizona Republic) December, 1982.

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    Registered User mona amon's Avatar
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    First of all, anti-Judaism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism. All evangelists are by definition anti any religion other than their own. 'Anti-semitism' on the other hand has its own specific dictionary definition loaded with cultural and historic shades of meaning. Secondly, a bunch of folks calling something anti-Semitic for as little reason as you still does not make it true. Anyway, if you want to discuss this further, you'll have to start your own thread, as I do not want to go off topic and mess up this one.
    Exit, pursued by a bear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mona amon View Post
    First of all, anti-Judaism is not the same thing as anti-Semitism. All evangelists are by definition anti any religion other than their own. 'Anti-semitism' on the other hand has its own specific dictionary definition loaded with cultural and historic shades of meaning. Secondly, a bunch of folks calling something anti-Semitic for as little reason as you still does not make it true. Anyway, if you want to discuss this further, you'll have to start your own thread, as I do not want to go off topic and mess up this one.
    Definition of "anti-semitism": hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious, ethnic, or racial group
    http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anti-semitism
    Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people. Thus it is anti-semitic to bear hostilty towards Judaism or the practitioners of Judaism. It is hostile to try to destroy judaism by converting all of the Jewish people to christianity.

    I've presented numerous sources which state that Jews widely view messianism as being anti-semitic.

    The topic of this thread is about messianic theology. I have taken the position (backed up by sources and evidence) that messianism is anti-semitic. Jews widely view messianism as being anti-semitic.

    Maybe several of Jacob's threads could be merged in order to keep the discussion in one place.
    Last edited by HCabret; 12-08-2015 at 12:44 AM.

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