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Thread: Houellebecq

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    Houellebecq

    Has anyone read his controversial novel Submission? What did you make of it? Do you think he is for or against Europe becoming an African and Islamic continent? Having visited France many times, it is clear to me that France's destiny is to be the first African and Islamic nation in Europe. But I suspect that it is the long-term destiny of all the European nations, whether they want it or not. Native white Europeans are not having enough children, while Africa's birth rate is the highest in the world. Right now there is an unprecedented migrant crisis unfolding in Europe. Some of the migrants are genuine refugees, but many are just in search of a better life. A snowball effect seems to be occurring.

    Why aren't there more novels dealing with this? It is an astonishing change. The native Europeans are so consumed with guilt at their colonial past that they seem to want their continent to become African and Islamic so as to atone. Is there much fiction that addresses this other than Submission? It seems a hot topic right now. No doubt all the novelists will be on the side of the migrants and will welcome this profound change (personally I hate seeing it happen).
    Last edited by WICKES; 09-04-2015 at 04:59 PM.

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    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    I think Europeans will wake up eventually. If not, well, any population which would voluntarily displace itself from its own native soil isn't worth saving. Hopefully the whole world will eventually look like Africa and we can all enjoy the diversity it brings. :^)
    Last edited by Clopin; 09-05-2015 at 05:01 AM.
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    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WICKES View Post
    Having visited France many times, it is clear to me that France's destiny is to be the first African and Islamic nation in Europe.
    Not if Le Front National have anything to do with it.....and they most certainly will.
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

    "Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.

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    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    A few times I've been around that track,
    So it's not just gonna happen like that,
    'Cause I ain't no Houellebecq girl,
    I ain't no Houellebecq girl.
    "So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
    "This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
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  5. #5
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emil Miller View Post
    Not if Le Front National have anything to do with it.....and they most certainly will.
    Instead of giving up your countries to foreigners or letting xenophobic racists fight your battles, you could try reinforcing a sense of pride and value in your culture equal to the immigrants' pride in what they bring with them. New comers are just filling a vacuum made by the secularity, nihilism, relativity, shame, and depression which Western Europe currently wallows in. You can't confront passion with apathy, belief with indifference, or beauty with intellectual onanism. You guys have to go back to your roots and rediscover the things you've lost.
    "So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
    "This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
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    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    Yes, you try publicly embracing 'white pride' and tell me how it goes for you.
    So with the courage of a clown, or a cur, or a kite jerkin tight at it's tether

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    I wholeheartedly agree with Clopin. On the one hand, mortalterror has a point in saying that the West's sense of pride needs to be equal to that of any immigrants or any other part of the world. But the problem in that is that advocating 'white pride' just will not cut it. Because historically, what meant 'white pride' also meant the suppression of those not white. And as you should be aware of, with suppression I mean not only imperial rule, but also the mental violence they were subjected to, being forced to internalise values that put them at the bottom of a racial hierarchy which was artificially constructed by the colonisers.

    As I said before, pride needs to be equal across everywhere. But right now, 'white pride' will not cut it, as what I just said and people still perpetuating those values today have just made it too negatively charged. Perhaps one day it could be 'reclaimed' in a proper manner, who knows. But right now maybe something else is in order. What about national pride? I can easily say that I am Dutch and proud to be Dutch without coming across like a racist. And it should work the same for everyone. An Italian can say he's a proud Italian and an Indian can say he's a proud Indian. No real sense of racism there. Perhaps it may be more difficult for peoples where patriotism used to be a problem in sort of the same way as white pride did. Perhaps, for example, England and the US should approach national pride carefully because it may be more charged for them. But it sure beats 'white pride'.

    @Wickes, I have not read Submission, but reading this thread I definitely want to. I intend to focus my studies on colonial literatures, so contemporary literatures about globalisation or migration are also really interesting. I will keep watching this thread to see if anyone else has suggestions for other good novels about these themes.
    Without any form of punctuation, our language would not say "I'm perfect"; it would say "imperfect".

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    Registered User Iain Sparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvoWarrior5 View Post
    I wholeheartedly agree with Clopin. On the one hand, mortalterror has a point in saying that the West's sense of pride needs to be equal to that of any immigrants or any other part of the world. But the problem in that is that advocating 'white pride' just will not cut it. Because historically, what meant 'white pride' also meant the suppression of those not white. And as you should be aware of, with suppression I mean not only imperial rule, but also the mental violence they were subjected to, being forced to internalise values that put them at the bottom of a racial hierarchy which was artificially constructed by the colonisers.

    As I said before, pride needs to be equal across everywhere. But right now, 'white pride' will not cut it, as what I just said and people still perpetuating those values today have just made it too negatively charged. Perhaps one day it could be 'reclaimed' in a proper manner, who knows. But right now maybe something else is in order. What about national pride? I can easily say that I am Dutch and proud to be Dutch without coming across like a racist. And it should work the same for everyone. An Italian can say he's a proud Italian and an Indian can say he's a proud Indian. No real sense of racism there. Perhaps it may be more difficult for peoples where patriotism used to be a problem in sort of the same way as white pride did. Perhaps, for example, England and the US should approach national pride carefully because it may be more charged for them. But it sure beats 'white pride'.

    @Wickes, I have not read Submission, but reading this thread I definitely want to. I intend to focus my studies on colonial literatures, so contemporary literatures about globalisation or migration are also really interesting. I will keep watching this thread to see if anyone else has suggestions for other good novels about these themes.
    What we're really talking about isn't ethnic pride, it's more to do with nationalism.
    I'm not proud that I'm white. However I am proud to be an American.
    Because we're better than everyone else... especially Canadians and the Dutch. Those people are very shifty.

  9. #9
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    Yes, you try publicly embracing 'white pride' and tell me how it goes for you.
    I'm proud to be an American. I think it's the greatest country in the world. Now, just replace your country of origin with America and add the word second before the word greatest and you will be good to go. It's not hard. You just need to have the same strength to your convictions that Coca-Cola has when it tells you it's better than Pepsi.

    I wouldn't say that I'm proud of my skin color but I'm definitely proud of my European heritage. Michelangelo, Mozart, Plato, and Shakespeare are my birthright and I pity any uncultured slob who doesn't embrace the things his forefathers built. Christianity is an amazing religion that offers more peace, love, happiness, and contentment pound for pound than any other religion and the West were a bunch of fools for dropping it. If I were a European I'd be celebrating all of that loudly every day in the streets.
    Last edited by mortalterror; 09-05-2015 at 10:24 AM.
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    Registered User Clopin's Avatar
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    European heritage is what I'm referring to. And yes, I'm proud as well and I'm also fine with saying so. However, for every person who thinks like you and I you have another dozen university graduates who think more along these lines... http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/04/...g-the-tension/

    That article is one of literally thousands which are shared through social media and which all espouse similar viewpoints. You would be hard pressed to find many taking the opposite view (that Europeans should be proud of their own culture and heritage) finding their way through any mainstream media outlets.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e-common-core/

    As a bonus check out this article that was recently shared on my Facebook newsfeed (where it was applauded). Basically the article boils down to the idea that we should stop teaching Shakespeare in English Lit classes because as a long dead white male he's not in touch with the modern, diverse, urban classrooms of today. Her suggestions for what would replace Shakespeare with are recitations from the African oral tradition (In ENGLISH class).

    Also note the racially charged language she repeatedly uses and tell me if it would be even moderately acceptable if applied to any other race.
    Last edited by Clopin; 09-05-2015 at 10:50 AM.
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    Registered User Emil Miller's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Clopin;1303673]However, for every person who thinks like you and I you have another dozen university graduates who think more along these lines... QUOTE]

    It was ever thus, youth and self-righteousness often go together. However, experience usually solves the problem and, where it doesn't, it is better to ignore those who refuse to grow up.'
    "L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.

    "Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.

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    Christianity has inspired many great minds and great artists, but it also inspired many ignorant people. It has produced evangelicals are who skeptical of scientists just because their findings contradict the literal Evangelical interpretations of the origins of the earth. Some of these people believe that the earth is no more than 6000 years old. They believe that all secular entertainment is satanic, so they produce godawful arts that were not inspired by their god to create something beautiful like the great christian artists of the past did, but to provide wholesome entertainment that teach their children twisted morals. They are often self-righteous and judgmental. They are bigoted against homosexuals and Muslims, these people were saying horrible things about gays like the AIDs crisis was god's plague upon them for sodomy. They also have a massive persecution complex, believing that in a nation that is over 70% christian, that somehow Christianity is under attack and Christians are a persecuted minority.

    Don't you think you guys are being a bit sensationalist?
    Last edited by gustave dore; 09-05-2015 at 01:54 PM.

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    Ecurb Ecurb's Avatar
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    I'm not proud to be an American, although I'm happy to be one. What should I have to be "proud" about? I'm an American through an accident of birth; I did nothing to deserve it, and have done (perhaps) less than I should have to improve my country. It seems like "grateful" describes my feelings better than "proud".

    In addition, I knew some teachers who didn't like teaching Shakespeare to their "inner-city" (i.e. minority) students. Why? In at least one case, half of the students were not native English speakers, and "Cat in the Hat" or "Harold and the Purple Crayon" would have been more appropriate to their level of English skill. It's silly to teach difficult, poetic, 16th century English to students who struggle to read standard, modern, English prose. For half of American high school kids, Shakespeare doesn't further language skills or the enjoyment of literature.

    "White pride" is reasonably contemned. Why? There's no reason to extol the virtues of power and dominance. The high school football players who bully other students don't need affirmation; the chess club members who are getting beat up do. If anything, the football players need a little less pride, and more humility -- while the chess club members could band together and have the pride to fight back.

    In addition, it's reasonable to criticize oneself (or one's own group). That's because we can change ourselves (or our own groups). Slamming someone else (or their group) lacks humility, and is less likely to effect change (although, of course, it is sometimes reasonable).

    I haven't read "Submission", and know nothing about it. But surely if we are "proud" of our heritage, we must also be ashamed of it. We Americans (for example) enslaved our fellow humans for 50 years after all European nations had abandoned the practice, and black people were legally banned from defecating in public toilets during my lifetime.

    So I remain grateful for (rather than proud of) of my American and European heritage. The distinction may seem minor, but I think it's worthwhile. "Proud of" suggests that the prideful person somehow takes credit for something, and may lead to a sense of personal superiority.

  14. #14
    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clopin View Post
    European heritage is what I'm referring to. And yes, I'm proud as well and I'm also fine with saying so. However, for every person who thinks like you and I you have another dozen university graduates who think more along these lines... http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/04/...g-the-tension/

    That article is one of literally thousands which are shared through social media and which all espouse similar viewpoints. You would be hard pressed to find many taking the opposite view (that Europeans should be proud of their own culture and heritage) finding their way through any mainstream media outlets.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...e-common-core/

    As a bonus check out this article that was recently shared on my Facebook newsfeed (where it was applauded). Basically the article boils down to the idea that we should stop teaching Shakespeare in English Lit classes because as a long dead white male he's not in touch with the modern, diverse, urban classrooms of today. Her suggestions for what would replace Shakespeare with are recitations from the African oral tradition (In ENGLISH class).

    Also note the racially charged language she repeatedly uses and tell me if it would be even moderately acceptable if applied to any other race.
    The person who wrote that first article is gross and has a lot of white guilt and self-loathing baggage they need to drop before they can think in a healthy way. She even blames whiteness for why she doesn't know her own cultural heritage and ethnic background. She ought to stop acting like a victim and admit that she's been lazy and ignorant by choice or that perhaps her sense of identity shame and politics are holding her back.

    The lady who wrote the second article actually has a good point but she takes it too far. Black students do need to be exposed to literature that empowers them and speaks more directly to their experience. They should still have to study Shakespeare, because they speak English, he's a major influence, and generally the best writer around; but they should also read great African American writers like August Wilson or Richard Wright. They should definitely be exposed to Zora Neale Hurston, Toni Morrison, and Langston Hughes once they've had a taste of Shakespeare, Dickens, Milton, Wordsworth, and Chaucer. They also need a grounding in Melville, Hawthorne, Twain, London, Eliot, Hemingway, Faulkner, Steinbeck, and Fitzgerald to appreciate their uniquely American identity as opposed to their linguistic or ethnic roots. The education children receive should be somewhat universal, so that they can relate to others, but also uniquely tailored to their lives for practical use.
    Last edited by mortalterror; 09-05-2015 at 02:12 PM.
    "So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
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    Alea iacta est. mortalterror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gustave dore View Post
    Christianity has inspired many great minds and great artists, but it also inspired many ignorant people.
    Like any other belief system it's a mixed bag, but generally it's a positive force in the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by gustave dore View Post
    It has produced evangelicals are who skeptical of scientists just because their findings contradict the literal Evangelical interpretations of the origins of the earth.
    A rather small minority of Christians believe that, even though most mainstream Christian denominations teachings are in accord with the scientific establishment. However, even something like 13% of atheists are skeptical of those scientific claims and cling to other pseudoscientific explanations. This is more likely a flaw in scientific education than do to any particular dogma or religion. It's sort of like how 1/4 people believe that 9/11 was a government conspiracy. There are a lot of crackpots out there willing to climb out on any shaky limb.

    Blaming all Christians for a few not believing in a couple of scientific theories is like blaming all liberals for their GMO phobia, fear of nuclear power, believing that vaccines cause autism, or that power lines cause cancer. It's not all liberals. It's just the stupid ones. There's a sizeable minority in the atheist community that denies the historical Jesus existed despite ample evidence. They spread the erroneous belief that everyone before Columbus thought the earth was flat, that dissections were forbidden in the middle ages, that Bruno was killed for his scientific beliefs, and the long discredited science/religion conflict theory proposed by Draper and White. So it's not just Christians twisting science and history to suit their agenda. It's stupid people of all stripes and creeds.

    Quote Originally Posted by gustave dore View Post
    Some of these people believe that the earth is no more than 6000 years old. They believe that all secular entertainment is satanic, so they produce godawful arts that were not inspired by their god to create something beautiful like the great christian artists of the past did, but to provide wholesome entertainment that teach their children twisted morals.
    I guess some people don't like art. Usually though I tend to use Christian art of the Renaissance as a point in our favor. Big chunks of the best art, literature, music, and architecture in Europe is Christian. There's no denying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gustave dore View Post
    They are often self-righteous and judgmental.
    They are more often humble and charitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by gustave dore View Post
    They are bigoted against homosexuals and Muslims, these people were saying horrible things about gays like the AIDs crisis was god's plague upon them for sodomy.
    Some are, most aren't. They are pretty much in accord with the rest of society and in some cases churches lead the charge to legalize gay marriage. I went to a gay church a few months ago by accident. It didn't seem much different from others I've been to except for the life partner of the minister was giving the sermon while the minister was away on business. I doubt that that church is bigoted against homosexuals.

    As for Islamophobia, I see a lot more of that coming from the militant atheists like Bill Maher, Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins. For my part, I like what the Muslims represent more than the atheists do; so if Europe can't be Christian any more I'd rather it be Muslim since I see a lot of overlap in our values.

    Quote Originally Posted by gustave dore View Post
    They also have a massive persecution complex, believing that in a nation that is over 70% christian, that somehow Christianity is under attack and Christians are a persecuted minority.
    Christianity is under attack, even if it is still the majority in America, and your post is an example of the numerous slights and insults Christians are subjected to every day.

    Quote Originally Posted by gustave dore View Post
    Don't you think you guys are being a bit sensationalist?
    No. I think we need to be more passionate and committed to our beliefs and way of life than our detractors are to theirs and to tearing us down or else we'll lose the war of ideas.
    "So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
    "This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
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