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Thread: The Style vs Substance Problem in Literature

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    style is a luxury
    we come around it because we feel substance has lost track of us
    it becomes meaningless depressive it needs a style
    it is to boost our lack of confidence towards substance
    we wish to magnify it so we think we can see us better
    it has positive and negative and can retraced to becoming substantial again

    substance is us
    literary is oral which becomes language
    when a style is established
    they both coexist because it is not possible to separate the human mind from speech which becomes words
    which in turn becomes heard as the literary device to get by
    to style is well is ideal
    style reforms it is to improve substance
    1. As to paragraph one, nothing you said answered my question or showed how literary substance can exist without style

    2. As to paragraph two, nothing you said answered my question or showed how literary substance can exist independent of language.

    I still look forward to your answering those questions if you ever feel you can do so.

  2. #32
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Aw, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy...
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    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade View Post
    Aw, Lawdy, Lawdy, Lawdy...
    Now, if that were a poem, one could possibly argue absence of imagery...

  4. #34
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    How about style and/or substance?
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    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
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  5. #35
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    The presence of both? Certainly. The quality of either? I'll keep mum...

  6. #36
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    So we are not just talking about having style and/or substance but their "quality" is also an issue?

    This is getting more and more complicated!
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    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
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  7. #37
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    No, I only brought up the quality issue for your gem. It has not been an issue of discussion, nor does it have to be. However, considering there are quality issues in substance and style, your taking it in that direction would not be extraneous.

  8. #38
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade View Post
    So we are not just talking about having style and/or substance but their "quality" is also an issue?

    This is getting more and more complicated!
    it is only complicated when substance is abdicated and style is indicated
    quality does not shine
    when idenity is tied
    that means substance is dragged because a style is dictating
    Last edited by cacian; 04-28-2015 at 06:21 PM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  9. #39
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    it is only complicated when substance is abdicated and style is indicated
    But not if it is didactic? That would surely make it fantastic!
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  10. #40
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    Plato, Derrida, Kierkegaard, Woolf, and Nietzsche were all didactic. Their different styles intermingled with their substances were all fantastic.

  11. #41
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pike Bishop View Post
    1. As to paragraph one, nothing you said answered my question or showed how literary substance can exist without style
    style is secondary
    the importance is to have substance first which we have naturally we are substance the matter of life and reason not the edge
    to make a statement is to introduce style so substance shines or makes an impression
    literary substance exist without style when we converse for example
    we go with our feelings because we want to be approved or we wish convention comvcition
    culture is substance
    it needs not a style it just needs confidence and clarity tone of voice body language and so on
    call it metaphysical
    that is the answer.

    2. As to paragraph two, nothing you said answered my question or showed how literary substance can exist independent of language.
    literary substance without language?
    language engages a substance to turn literate
    one writes and reads in order to understand because one needs to see and hear in order to perfect improvement
    substance without language exists when it is not expressed it is in our body language
    frustration
    anger
    mood swings
    misbehaviour
    are as a result of not expressing substance we become absent
    memory is affected
    so it does not really exist it more harbours

    I still look forward to your answering those questions if you ever feel you can do so.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by cacian; 04-28-2015 at 06:36 PM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  12. #42
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pike Bishop View Post
    Plato, Derrida, Kierkegaard, Woolf, and Nietzsche were all didactic. Their different styles intermingled with their substances were all fantastic.
    ah yeah but the were definitely on something.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    style is secondary
    the importance is to have substance first which we have naturally we are substance the matter of life and reason not the edge
    to make a statement is to introduce style so substance shines or makes an impression
    literary substance exist without style when we converse for example
    we go with our feelings because we want to be approved or we wish convention comvcition
    culture is substance
    it needs not a style it just needs confidence and clarity tone of voice body language and so on
    call it metaphysical
    that is the answer.
    No, that is not the answer. It was some very interesting wordplay, but none of it showed showed how literary substance can exist without style. If you want to do so, you need to choose some actual texts and show how they separate style and substance. Since it can't be done, if you actually do so, you will probably earn a chair in most English departments.

    As to your second paragraph, which I couldn't quote, it was also interesting wordplay, but it didn't show in any way how literary substance can exist independent of language. Until you show how it can actually do so, the fact remains that it can't.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pike Bishop View Post
    P.s. for a quick example of imagery in poems, here's one from the Imagist master, Ezra Pound:

    In A Station Of The Metro:

    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;

    Petals on a wet, black bough.


    There is no escaping the reality and importance of the images in that poem.
    How many petals are on the bough? If those words were an image, I would know that. How many faces? Is the crowd on the right or on the left hand side of the image or does the crowd completely cover the image? Are the number of people in the crowd clearly countable or too fuzzy to count? If countable, does your count of the number of people agree with my count of the number of people in the image? Since this is about a metro, where is the train in the image? Is the train above the people or on the right or the left side of the image? Is there a station sign in the image showing us that this really is a metro? Is it on the right side or on the left side or maybe in the center of the image?

    If those words represented an image, I would know that information along with a lot of other details.

    My conclusion: those words do not constitute an image. They do mean something. They do have a sound. That is all they offer, which is quite a lot.
    Last edited by YesNo; 04-28-2015 at 10:55 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    My conclusion: those words do not constitute an image. They do mean something. They do have a sound. That is all they offer, which is quite a lot.
    Your conclusion is both unsupported and, respectfully, wrong. You can falsely deny "wet, black, boughs," "faces in the crownd" and a metro station are images all you like. They all are still images. Wet, black, boughs; faces in the crowd; and metro stations are all physical things evoking imagery when referenced. Until you can show otherwise, they are all still images in the poem.
    Last edited by Pike Bishop; 04-28-2015 at 11:09 PM.

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