History, Histories, and Historical Novels

[Clopin]

But the good news for you, Clopin, is that (from my observations in any case), you excel at exactly that kind of critical thinking (and God knows you don't lack the courage to defend your conclusions).*

Well thank you, but sadly I'm just an internet tough guy and defending my often very unpopular conclusions in real life is another matter... Usually doing so just invites public ridicule of some sort, or some other brand of outrage based argument.

You have no idea how funny that statement is. If you think that Lenin and Mao are hard to keep up with, try Charlemagne and Leo III. Try the historical Jesus for Christ sake! (Heh heh). It only get's harder with time, and if the subject has anything to do with sex, "gender," or religion, then you've got impassioned opponents on one side or another before you even start.*

Yeh see I tend toward histories like Herodotus, Tacitus, Julius Caeser etc because at least I know I'm reading something of cultural and historic importance itself no matter how inaccrate or badly researched by todays standards. I don't think Charlemagne is as widely politicized as 20th century figures so I'm not as worried about agendas cropping up in my information... maybe that's naive though.

The last history book I read was Modern Times by Paul Johnson, which I liked but again... reading the reviews calls much of the information into question and now I have to determine whether Eisenhower and Nixon were good presidents and what effect Coolidge actually had on the economy and whether FDR was a great president or instead one of the worst, etc. I mean it will probably take at least six or seven thousand pages to barely get enough information to be able to say with any certainty what I think about even one of them, let alone four, let alone Hitler, Stalin, Churchill, The Weimar Republic, Bismarck, De Gaulle... etc etc. It feels like a lifelong discipline, though I recognize the importance.

Also...

Historical Novel - War and Peace I suppose, if it actually counts. The historical novel is not a genre I'm big on.

Historian - I don't have one. Maybe David Irving because I feel like he's mistreated though I've never read any of his books. Also from all the interviews and footage I've seen of him he just seems so awkward and naive about what he's saying and taking on haha, I found it endearing when he appeared to be very unguarded about admitting to being racist or whatever else. Uh but I've also read he wanted to start some sort of crazy neo nazi political party so ... I dunno.

Historical Period - Mmhm... I suppose 'right now' isn't really 'history' so I would have to say revolutionary France/the Napoleanic period and I like 1900 - 1945.

[Pompey Bum]

Yeh see I tend toward histories like Herodotus, Tacitus, Julius Caeser etc because at least I know I'm reading something of cultural and historic importance itself no matter how inaccrate or badly researched by todays standards.

Try Gibbon if you get the chance. He's long, but his language is so rich that can stand with the greatest writers in English. If the whole thing is too much, just read the first volume or two. Also, if you like ancient histories, try Procopius' Secret History (with hilarious scenes of Theodora's stripper years). Or if you want an ancient novel, try Apuleius' Golden As s--better in Latin but worth it in Adlington's translation.

It feels like a lifelong discipline, though I recognize the importance.

Yes, it is lifelong, you know, in the same way that using reason instead of violence and the intimidation of violence is a lifestyle. History is really just an extension of that kind of thought. That's why it's so important to "civilization," in my opinion. But maybe your thing is lit. Still you should check out Gibbon at some point.

[Clopin]

Yeh Gibbon is on my next reading cycle after I finish the last of my books here, I'll probably read the entire thing and I can't stand abridgements so it's the full six or however many volumes.

Actually one barrier to entry I have with history is unlike literature I never know what I want to be reading. I know what topics I want to cover, but I don't know which books are the most valuable. That's one good thing about havig such an established literary canon.

[talleyrand]

I am starting this thread so that we have a place to discuss histories, historic novels, and history in general.

So, you know:

What is your favorite historical novel?

Who is your favorite historian?

What is your favorite historical period and why?

BUT NO LISTS!

(Just kidding. Do whatever you want).

I enjoyed reading the book "Le Comte De Monte Cristo" written by Alexandre Dumas, in addition the play "Lucrece Borgia" written by Victor Hugo.

I really admire the historian Simone Bertière because she has got wide knowledge and her essays as well as her novels are interesting and well-written. Furthermore, I like collecting old history books written by Malet and Isaac.

I am fascinated with the 19th Century and the beginnings of the 20th Century because there were lots of discoveries moreover revolutions: photography, blood transfusion, universal exhibitions and so on.

[Pompey Bum]

Romans remind me of Americans.

They remind me a little of Americans, too. Or modern westerners, I suppose. Contrary to some of Bulwer-Lytton's ideas in Last Days of Pompeii, the Romans (by the time of the Empire anyway) loved diversity. Having lots of different kinds of people in their cities, and having exotic gods and temples everywhere, reminded them of how many places they had taken over. And that made them feel all warm and fuzzy inside. They were usually very tolerant of other religions. There was some ambivalence about Jews, but (outside of Alexandria), there was also a respect among educated Romans for the antiquity of Judaism (even if Roman satirists liked to pick on Jewish customs). But the Romans absolutely hated Christians, at least for the first three centuries or so. That was an exception, though, something 19th century writers like Bulwer-Lytton didn't really get. And it's still a misconception today, especially now that the legacy of Jew hatred has become so (deservedly) embarrassing to Christians. No worries, those intolerant Romans are now the bad guys. Happy endings all around!

[Pompey Bum]

I enjoyed reading the book "Le Comte De Monte Cristo" written by Alexandre Dumas, in addition the play "Lucrece Borgia" written by Victor Hugo.

I really admire the historian Simone Bertière because she has got wide knowledge and her essays as well as her novels are interesting and well-written. Furthermore, I like collecting old history books written by Malet and Isaac.

I am fascinated with the 19th Century and the beginnings of the 20th Century because there were lots of discoveries moreover revolutions: photography, blood transfusion, universal exhibitions and so on.

Borgia is an interesting (if notorious) character. I wrote an epigram about her once:

Lucrezia Borgia popped the Pope,
Her dad at that, the dizzy dope!

I never read Hugo's play, though. Does he cast in the traditional debauched libertine or role or does he make her more sympathetic?

[ladderandbucket]

I enjoy popular history, and books which follow ideas or patterns over long periods - I think this is known as the 'longue duree' approach. My experience of more scholarly history often involves a lot of skimming over details, whilst trying to stay focused on the overall theme. I don't know if that's how you're supposed to read those heavy kind of books. Sometimes I feel overwhelmed by facts, and know full well that 90% of them will be forgotten almost instantly.

Gibbon is a great read, and surprisingly welcoming for a non-intellectual like me.

My favourite history book is Norman Cohn's Pursuit of the Millennium - about utopian sects in medieval Europe. Also, Christopher Hill's The World Turned Upside Down - about English radicalism in the 17th century - which inspired an abiding interest in that period. Both of those books find a good spot between vivid depiction and intelligent argument.

The best history book I've read recently was Debt by David Graeber, which looks at global economic history with the view that debt preceded currency, and that credit and bullion systems have been cycling ever since. It was extremely eye-opening, and a lot more fun than I made it sound. I wish I had taken notes. I felt as though Graeber was presenting an extraordinary fact, or unveiling a novel perspective, every few pages.

[Pompey Bum]

Thanks for the recommendations, L&B. Cohen's book is a classic, although I notice with annoyance that there is no ebook version available at Amazon (what else is new?) if you're interested in the fascinating but violent 17th century, you may want to check out The Thirty Years War: Europe's Tragedy by Peter Wilson (from the University of Hull). It's prodigiously long, but worth it if you've got the time. And the Graeber book sounds great. It's a little startling how long people seem to get by without the "invention" of money. The idea that cash was a sort of symbolic add on to debt (if that's his premise) could make a lot of sense. Thanks for letting us know about the book.

[ladderandbucket]

you may want to check out The Thirty Years War: Europe's Tragedy by Peter Wilson

I've had my eye on that book for a while. It looks a bit heavy for me, but one day I will devote some time to it, for want of anything more accessible on the subject. There is a notable shortage of English language books on the Thirty Years War, which is surprising for such a massive event.

[Pompey Bum]

IThere is a notable shortage of English language books on the Thirty Years War, which is surprising for such a massive event.

Ah but you are talking to the right man! Here is Friedrich Schiller's famous and beautifully written History of the Thirty Years War.

http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmani...r/30yrswar.pdf

Here is the 19th century English historian Samuel Rawson Gardiner's less poetic but more critical History of the Thirty Years War:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/40082...-h/40082-h.htm

If you prefer to download ebooks rather than use these online versions, you can do so for free at Gutenberg.

And since you seem keen on the 16th century, here are links to download the great Leopold von Ranke's six volumes on The History of England Principally the 17th century (along with many other of von Ranke's histories, mostly of 17th century subjects).

http://www.cristoraul.com/AUTHORS/Le...von-Ranke.html

These do need to be downloaded (if you have ibooks, that will do fine). They take up a lot of space, but they are worth it.

There are no copyright restrictions on any of these materials. All are completely free. Enjoy them, if you are so inclined.

[ennison]

Excellent links PB. Thanks.
One of my favourite historical novels was The Heart of Midlothian. The Patrick O Brian and CS Forester novels are very very good. Tare too many very good historians for me to single one out but when I was young I enjoyed John Prebble. Recently I read Schama's "Dead Certainties" An historical period I am interested in would be the Napoleonic Wars in The Peninsula but many others also.

[ennison]

Oops. Tare meant There. Boiling a cod roe carefully right now . That's my excuse. It's a large one . I'll let it cool in the pan and it'll be ready for slicing in the morning.

[Vota]

I have read half a dozen of Plutarch's Lives and thoroughly enjoyed them. Although his work is basically biographical comparisons for moral purposes, their is A LOT of history in his lives.

I've read about half of Herodotus's Histories and really liked it. I would recommend The Landmark Herodotus for its easy to read translation, clean presentation, numerous maps and pictures.

The Things They Carried by Tim O'Brien. This is a collection of short stories about his experience in the Vietnam War. I've only read two of them so far, but they are solid reading.

Last, but not least, War and Peace. This is an epic, sprawling, phenomenal story. I can't recommend this book enough. After the first 100-120 pages it just takes off.

[prendrelemick]

As a member of "Herodotus is my homeboy " Facebook group, of course I like his undisciplined collection of stories. Plutarch is a good read too .
However, we ex British school boys know history started in 1066, ended in 1945 and happened in England.

[Clopin]

"The U.K, all the way!"



^ All the history I need to know, baby.