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Thread: Christmas Reading: Snow by Orhan Pamuk

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    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Christmas Reading: Snow by Orhan Pamuk

    Please share your thoughts and questions about Pamuk's Snow here.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


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    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    I am almost half way through and here are some thoughts.

    It is difficult to follow all the events (and their importance) for a non-Turkish reader, I think.

    Some information:

    In Turkish, snow=kar, which does sound like the main characters assumed name Ka. Also, the town name Kars starts with these letter so nice alliteration work there for Pamuk.

    I am struggling to take Ka seriously in anything he does and says; somehow immature... Is this Pamuk's general attitude towards leftists in Turkish politics?
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


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    Super papayahed's Avatar
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    I just finished Chapter 3. It is slightly confusing, I had to stop and reread a few times to figure out where we were at in the story. Not to mention at least three guys so far have the same last name.
    Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda


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    Super papayahed's Avatar
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    OK, the last names aren't the same even so this book is so..... maudlin?

    I'm going to need to read an evanovich after this.

    Is it me or is the story being told from Ka and from Ka's friend point of view? I'll be reading along and think it's Ka talking when all the sudden I read a sentence like " Ka and I used to frequent this teahouse", and it stops me in my tracks.
    Do, or do not. There is no try. - Yoda


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    Bohemian Marbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade View Post
    It is difficult to follow all the events (and their importance) for a non-Turkish reader, I think.
    As with any story set in a foreign cultural-political milieu, it is difficult to grasp immediately the import of some events and expressions but as you read along the picture becomes clearer.

    My perseverance paid off. It turned out to be a very educating story about modern Turkish dilemmas in specific and the larger Muslim dilemmas in general.

    One thing to keep in mind about Pamuk's style is that he employs a lot of improvisation, sometimes rather excessively, which may tire the reader.

    I am struggling to take Ka seriously in anything he does and says; somehow immature... Is this Pamuk's general attitude towards leftists in Turkish politics?
    I think he handles characters evenhandedly. Now it's leftists but later in the novel there comes Sunay Zaim who is a nationalistic/rightist character. He's arguably the most retarded character of the novel.

    Some characters are little more than flat cardboard symbols so don't expect them to have rounded personalities. This is one area where Pamuk could have improved.

    Quote Originally Posted by papayahed View Post
    Is it me or is the story being told from Ka and from Ka's friend point of view? I'll be reading along and think it's Ka talking when all the sudden I read a sentence like " Ka and I used to frequent this teahouse", and it stops me in my tracks.
    This confused me too. The story is actually told from the point of view of a friend of Ka's. That friend of Ka is no other than the novelist himself! Later on you will meet 'Orhan' the narrator, who is also Orhan the novelist. It's a fictional flourish some readers enjoy and some do not. So when you read "I" in the novel, it is the novelist-narrator talking to you directly.

    Anyway we'd discuss more once you guys have finished reading it
    Last edited by Marbles; 01-05-2015 at 08:27 AM.
    But you, cloudless girl, question of smoke, corn tassel
    You were what the wind was making with illuminated leaves.
    ah, I can say nothing! You were made of everything.

    _Pablo Neruda

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    I read Snow several years ago but only appreciated it to a certain extent. (I gave my only copy to my dad, so I am not rereading it now). I remember having two problems with the novel, but on reflection, I would say that they were both my problems rather than Pamuk's. For one thing, I didn't really gain many new insights about people from reading Snow. Pamuk seemed to want to show the appeal that overt religious expressions can hold for young people; and that teenage girls (and others) may see traditions like the wearing of headscarves as acts of defiance rather than submission. Neither of those things were surprises to me. I was interested, though, in the idea of inspirational mysticism that was introduced early in the book and comes up again near the end. I wished that the theme had been more fully developed in the rest of the book.

    My second obstacle to getting more out of Snow was equally subjective--my fault rather than Pamuk's. I really didn't enjoy it much as a novel. That's not because Snow lacked vivid beauty (even through the veil of translation) or because I found some of the more upsetting parts of the novel off-putting. I am a little embarrassed to confess that it was probably because Snow was exactly what it should have been: a Turkish novel. Its sharp wide-angled focus (in the theater sequence, for example), its subjugation of an even narrative structure to the particular timelines of the relationships and passions of the characters, and Pamuk's theme of eastern distinction from the presuppositions of the European Enlightenment all caused me to suspect that despite its rather western "detective novel" premise, Snow was playing by rules that I didn't fully understand. I say "suspect" because, not reading Turkish, I don't really know what I'm talking about. But I often felt unconnected to Snow as a novel, and I associated that unconnectedness with my experience reading "western" novels (which are the blood of my heart).

    But perhaps that was the point. Turkey occupies a unique geographical and cultural landscape between east and west. Ka's journey is both. As he moves from the intellectual milieu of "Enlightenment Turkey" (via artistic mysticism?) into a rural Turkey empowered by a dynamic and personal Islam, the obscuring snow begins to fall. What is ultimately lost, Pamuk seems to conclude, is that very mystical poetry that Turkey alone is able to produce. I don't wish to be more specific since many have not finished the novel. But those, in any case, were my impressions of Snow.

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    Bohemian Marbles's Avatar
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    Interesting take on the novel, Pompey Bum. One thing I learnt from reading Snow is that nothing is unequivocal, agreed upon, done with, already understood - no narrative is without its justifications and ironies. That one chapter in the words of a religious character says something like..."It is only the name that the Westerners and secularists give us." And somewhere another chapter is titled "Do they have a different God in Europe?" The uncritically accepted narrative of 'modernisation' or 'Enlightenment', as it's so often called, is not a universal recipe that produces universal results. Snow, in my understanding, shows us a glimpse of this wider worldwide conflict with a Turkish example. In that the novel has universal appeal. It could be set in Zimbabwe or in India all the same, with a different story.

    Our previous generations of novelists from non-Western world aped their Western predecessors and contemporaries to try to produce similar results in their fictitious societies. I don't think it worked. Now we are hearing first-hand reports from more and more novelists who are challenging the precepts on which the literary social edifice is built. This excites me a lot. This challenges set beliefs and taken-for-granted perceptions. We may not feel connected to it but in my opinion it is not important; nor is being able to 'relate' is important. Personally, I don't read new stuff from peoples I don't understand and languages I don't speak and countries I have never been to with a view to 'relate' to their stories; I put myself up to it so that it may pull me out of my local cocoon and make see the world from a different vantage point than I am using to seeing it from my window.
    But you, cloudless girl, question of smoke, corn tassel
    You were what the wind was making with illuminated leaves.
    ah, I can say nothing! You were made of everything.

    _Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marbles View Post
    The uncritically accepted narrative of 'modernisation' or 'Enlightenment', as it's so often called, is not a universal recipe that produces universal results.
    I agree that neither modernization nor European Enlightenment traditions cannot be imposed on the historical, philosophical, or literary landscape of a different culture without some problems arising. But it's more complicated than that, precisely because of the period of European colonialism that sought to impose the western model uber alles. As most Europeans eventually acknowledged, that attempt failed to find "a universal recipe that produces universal results" (well put, btw), but it has left a legacy in some places that (in my opinion) should not be too quickly dismissed. Vikram Seth's A Suitable Boy, for example, is a thoroughly Indian novel written in English and rooted in the literary works of Anthony Trollope. Although Seth has been criticized at times for "not being Indian enough" (he was educated at Doon, an elite Indian school on the model of a British boarding school), it seems to me that such an approach robs India of a historical reality (200 to 500 years of British cultural imposition that affected her deeply) and a linguistic bounty that includes English and many other languages. Such issues become less academic when viewed in the context of Boko Haram's war on "western education" or Malala Yousafzai's work (and suffering) on behalf of girls' education.

    But I digress. The idea that the European Enlightenment "is not a universal recipe that produces universal results" is one that we share.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marbles View Post
    Snow, in my understanding, shows us a glimpse of this wider worldwide conflict with a Turkish example. In that the novel has universal appeal. It could be set in Zimbabwe or in India all the same, with a different story. We may not feel connected to it but in my opinion it is not important; nor is being able to 'relate' is important. Personally, I don't read new stuff from peoples I don't understand and languages I don't speak and countries I have never been to with a view to 'relate' to their stories; I put myself up to it so that it may pull me out of my local cocoon and make see the world from a different vantage point than I am using to seeing it from my window.
    That is helpful, although some might say, "Hey, if I'm not going to get much out of a book, then why pretend? I'll just read a book I can relate to." Obviously that is a personal call, so I will just observe that with me it's hit or miss. Apart from its aesthetics, Snow left me a bit--cold? But as I said, part of that was not feeling like I was learning much new. Although I don't speak Turkish (I can count to four and say ice cream), I have traveled there a bit and more or less knew what Pamuk was talking about. On the other hand, I am currently reading A Brief History of Seven Killings, a novel about Jamaican gangland in Kingston during the 1970s, by Jamaican author Marlon James, written largely in patois. I've never been to Jamaica, and God knows I've never been in a gang, but I am hanging on every word precisely because so much of it is new to me. Sometimes one's own cocoon is best, sometimes one slips into someone else's. I'm always surprised by what works and what doesn't.
    Last edited by Pompey Bum; 01-06-2015 at 09:31 AM.

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    Ecurb Ecurb's Avatar
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    Like Pompey, I read "Snow" several years ago and am not rereading it now. I preferred "The Black Book", mainly because I loved the newspaper editorials that constitute every other chapter of that book.

    Pamuk's non-fiction about Istanbul is also excellent.

    I liked Snow better than Pompey did -- but I'm having trouble remembering the details now. It seems to me that it's about an essential Turkish conflict -- the conflict between Europe and the East. When the snow blocks the roads, Kars goes back in time. Ka is the political exile - a European for many years. He returns first to Istanbul (half of which is actually in Europe), and then to Kars, deep into Asia. His return to his Asian roots revitalizes his poetic muse, which has been repressed in Europe. The other characters in the book represent different aspects of this muse: the beautiful Ipek represents his youth; the fiery Blue his Muslim heritage; etc. Tellingly, however, the poems Ka writes have been lost -- the narrator (Orhan) finds only mention of them in a notebook. The poems are gone; the muses remain, immortalized in "Snow".
    Last edited by Ecurb; 01-05-2015 at 08:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    The more I read the book, the more I get the feeling as if I am watching one of those real life documentaries which follow one person around, simply recording whatever is happening without actually offering much insight... In a way it is good that there is much room for interpretation... which is also a downside: much too room for interpretation.

    By now, I am truly annoyed with Ka... He is immature and lacking direction. A lost cause in himself, just like their dream of a liberal Turkey.

    I agree that this is a story that would be of little interest to anyone who is not familiar with the regional and, maybe, religious debates in and around Turkey but, as Pompey pointed out, these conflicts are not limited to Turkey today but many Muslim countries who are dealing with radicalism.

    It is interesting that Ka was unable to write poetry (be productive) in Germany, where he had freedom. He finds his muse again once he's faced with conflicts and turmoil. Is that an artistic requirement?

    I am wondering if Ka will somehow die and it will be left to the author (Orhan) to tell his story.

    (No spoilers please... Just musing and still about 150 pages to go!)
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


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    Bohemian Marbles's Avatar
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    ^ It is the narrator - Orhan - who is telling the story ab initio.
    But you, cloudless girl, question of smoke, corn tassel
    You were what the wind was making with illuminated leaves.
    ah, I can say nothing! You were made of everything.

    _Pablo Neruda

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    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marbles View Post
    ^ It is the narrator - Orhan - who is telling the story ab initio.
    Yes, I realise that... Just wondering why Orhan chose to tell this story.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  13. #13
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade View Post
    Yes, I realise that... Just wondering why Orhan chose to tell this story.
    Well, that questions has been answered...

    Just read the part when Ka visits Blue in the cell... There is something weird going on. Is it possible that Ipek is also in love with Blue?

    Apparently, Ipek=silk and Kadife=velvet

    Do you think these names are significant?

    Also, if anyone looked at a map of Turkey... Kars is a rather small city in the corner... Wondering why this particular city was chosen... There are other cities that are bigger and more prominent that are considerably distant from Ankara, the capital.

    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


  14. #14
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Well, just finished the book... Quite mixed feelings.
    ~
    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
    ~


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    Bohemian Marbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scheherazade View Post
    Well, that questions has been answered...Also, if anyone looked at a map of Turkey... Kars is a rather small city in the corner... Wondering why this particular city was chosen... There are other cities that are bigger and more prominent that are considerably distant from Ankara, the capital.
    A small, tatterdemalion town of Kars is chosen as the setting probably to show the full effect of the political and cultural conflicts of modern Turkey which are quite often lost in the 'happening' places of the country where conflict is more easily washed over by the modernist facade Turkish ruling elite put on display.
    But you, cloudless girl, question of smoke, corn tassel
    You were what the wind was making with illuminated leaves.
    ah, I can say nothing! You were made of everything.

    _Pablo Neruda

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