Lots to agree and disagree with but I liked the description of Ulysses as being more discussed than read.Originally Posted by ladderandbucket
I think the description of The Lord of the Rings should have been.... 'nuff said.
Lots to agree and disagree with but I liked the description of Ulysses as being more discussed than read.
I think the description of The Lord of the Rings should have been.... 'nuff said.
"L'art de la statistique est de tirer des conclusions erronèes a partir de chiffres exacts." Napoléon Bonaparte.
"Je crois que beaucoup de gens sont dans cet état d’esprit: au fond, ils ne sentent pas concernés par l’Histoire. Mais pourtant, de temps à autre, l’Histoire pose sa main sur eux." Michel Houellebecq.
1. Don Quixote- Cervantes
2. Madame Bovary- Flaubert
3. War & Peace- Tolstoy
4. The Brothers Karamazov- Dostoevsky
5. In Search of Lost Time- Proust
6. Lawrence Sterne- Tristram Shandy
7. Lolita- Nabokov
8. Moby Dick- Melville
9. Doctor Faustus- Thomas Mann
10. A Tale of Two Cities- Dickens
Yes, a very balanced list of white male writers.
Admittedly I read for pleasure, not out of some misguided notion that my reading choices might somehow correct unfair biases and prejudices. I'd find it difficult to think of a novel by a female writer or non-white writer that is clearly superior to those I listed. Of course my own knowledge and experience with non-Western literature is limited. Even if I believed that the goal of any list of "The Ten Greatest Novels" should be to present a list that is unbiased and offers equal representation to all "minorities" this would be absolutely impossible in a list limited to but 10 books. What about Jewish authors? Muslim authors? Latin-American authors? Native Americans? Gay and Lesbian? Albino dwarfs?
Beware of the man with just one book. -Ovid
The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.- Mark Twain
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I agree that it is difficult to decide what should qualify as classic today. I agree with you about the quality of Tolkien's writing and characterisation and that it found a resonance with modern readers. For me this is what will mark The LOTR as a classic.
I think the same of 1984 - the book has flaws, but the ideas within it have gone beyond the novel and established it as a modern classic. It too resonates with the modern reader through the 20th century with newspeak and big brother.
As for other modern classics, I think it would be difficult to spot what will become one. I think the conversations could be very interesting though. The problems include a work having enough advocates. One of the reasons I cited the Booker is it may provide a rudimentary filter, though this is by no means certain. Narcopolis, long listed which I read last year, was pulpy, though exotic. I don't think it merited long listing. There are some great works being written, but I realise it is hard. Not much is written about the books and so you have to come to conclusions through your own impressions and opinions, whereas we can all read and pontificate about classic works as so much can be found on them. I notice that the thread has quickly reverted to lists of classic books which may be mildly contentious, but also may indicate the classics as a certain comfort zone.
Last edited by Paulclem; 11-09-2014 at 08:08 PM.
Isn't that exactly what one would want (and expect)? I've never studied literature, classic or contemporary (well, some ancient), but isn't thinking for yourself a big part of it?
On a less contentious note, The New York Review of Books (not to be confused with The New York Times) is a good source of opinion on new works.
Yeah, I think that is more the point, the so called "resonance", it is probally where you can start, you as a modern reader of course. I am not sure about the booker list (perhaps it is another comfort zone?), but the resonance is a bit like a cat purring, right? It is a comfortable sensation.
1984 is a good mention. I know it dos resonates, evidences such as effect on world's language is there. I can see why - as it somehow is inside a tradition of distopias - worked at first. Why is working now, I am can especulate that maybe it is not the utopias that ended in this age, so we cannot "dream" about them, but the world is so secure (sic), stable, politically correct, that the distopias also are "dead" in this age, no nightmares are possible, so one we can believe in, like 1984 is strong. I consider this when i see, in Brazil, a minority, but loud and growing in power going to the streets with labels like "communism", "bolivarianism", asking for the return of militar dictadorship - not because you have charismatic leader, but because of supposed merits of the system. To me, their lack of historical context, came from a philosophical lack of reference that distopias can be real.
Anyways, the resonance is like thinking with the gutts, it is about the books you like. Don't you already guide yourself this way?
Well, for chicks you could have gone with Tale of Genji, or Middlemarch. And you might have wanted to throw Asians a bone with one of the four classic novels like say Dream of the Red Chamber. Proust is half-Jewish so you are covered there. In spite of their great poetic output, I can't think of any great Muslim novels besides My Name is Red, Palace Walk, or The Blind Owl and those aren't on the same level of excellence as the other novels we are discussing. I can see someone putting 100 Years of Solitude up for Latin American authors. When it comes to Native Americans it's mostly just Sherman Alexie and Black Elk Speaks. You could throw a rock and hit a gay author, not that you should: Oscar Wilde, Proust, Maugham, Woolf, Capote, Mann, etc. You actually have a lot of viable options if you choose to sculpt the cannon certain ways. Some work better than others, but there is definitely some wiggle room if you need it.
"So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
"This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
Feed the Hungry!
darn, had shakespeare writen a novel, we would have covered the jew muslin gay native latin white albino option just as easy...
Why should we justify lists by including non-white, non-male, non-Western authors so consciously and deliberately when the list is meant to be about top works of fiction (from wherever written by whoever) and not a representation of diversity of today's humanity?
Where's that Tamil female writer who went through the trauma of a forced marriage to tell her story in fictionalised form?
But you, cloudless girl, question of smoke, corn tassel
You were what the wind was making with illuminated leaves.
ah, I can say nothing! You were made of everything.
_Pablo Neruda
I think there is something to be said for trying various combinations and looking at things from different perspectives. A list says as much about the person who compiles it as it does about the subject. Whenever I make lists about movies, books, or music I usually notice that some areas are overrepresented and others are underrepresented reflecting both strengths and gaps in my own knowledge. A careful analysis of such things usually gives me insight into myself and areas where I need improvement and continued study. Frequently, I find that there are whole time periods, languages, or genres I'm startled to find I have overlooked.
Last edited by mortalterror; 11-10-2014 at 01:12 AM.
"So-Crates: The only true wisdom consists in knowing that you know nothing." "That's us, dude!"- Bill and Ted
"This ain't over."- Charles Bronson
Feed the Hungry!
I'd say yes it is what you would expect but I'm not sure it's as easy as you suggest. One of the reasons the classics are referred to so much is that there is a large and tested body of literature about them. Studying literature is less about coming to your own conclusions but accommodating and commenting on the studies others have done. To do a book justice requires close reading, familiarity with genres and styles, evaluation of the narrative techniques etc etc. That makes studying modern texts, which may only have a few reviews written about them, a bit daunting but nonetheless very interesting.
I read the Times and Guardian reviews and have often picked up books from there. The question of how you locate good literary and potentially classic books is also interesting. It's not surprising the Stoner had to be
revived and may qualify after falling out of print previously. Good newspaper reviews are probably essential along with competition nominations. I know that it has been suggested that such competitions are rife with u fair influence, but at least the books have been suggested by literary readers.
Yes on a personal level there is the gut feeling, but that's also opinion. Even a classic list is difficult to agree on though, which makes the in fighting and promotions of books in competitions like the Booker more understandable. I think you have to take recommendations where you can find them.
Ah accommodating the views of others! Sounds like the lit crit biz to me. So the people you need to accommodate don't know what to think about contemporary literature because the ones they accommodated never told them--so they can't tell us what to think. I understand, really, and it makes me extremely glad to be a common reader who only needs to worry about finding a bond with an author; and to be free to form my views without the permission of others.
In fact, a motivated reader could do all those things. Keeping up with the current lit on the current lit isn't really necessary to do a book justice, is it? A career maybe, but not a book. Literature is democratic in that respect, I think.
Please don't misunderstand me. I respect what you are saying, and I respect what you seem to do for a living. I am just grinning at the irony that a person like me, an old man reading through his retirement, is freer to decide what I think about contemporary literature than you, an apparent professional.
You know, I think that Stoner and William's other two books were revived, as you say, specifically because of a publishing project by the New York Review of books (called New York Review Vintage or something). I don't know if it is available in Coventry, West, but I think it would be exactly what you are looking for. It's not connected to a newspaper, by the way. It is very much sui generis.
In any case, thank you for responding. I understand what you mean now.
Last edited by Pompey Bum; 11-11-2014 at 06:50 AM.
Unfortunately I'm not in the lit crit biz and am more like yourself - an interested reader. Some of the other posters - St Likes, JCamilo and JBI are more learned.
I merely meant that to fully study a book, without much input from other writers, is more involved that forming opinions. It takes some close analysis. I also didn't mean to suggest that the interested reader couldn't do that. It's just a question of time and on this forum many of us interested readers are working and pressed for time. As a consequence I think it likely that discussion about modern literary works is more difficult. I think it would be worth it though. I like to look forward rather than just at the past classics where a lot of analysis has already been done leaving room for interesting but limited personal opinion.
I wonder if a thread where lit netters could post candidates for future classics would be interesting? Perhaps a short review with reasons why it might qualify as a classic. Who knows - we might actually spot one.
Wasn’t it Stephen Fry who said of contemporary poetry ‘Nothing of note has been written for the last fifty years’ a bit strong but I see where he’s coming from; who reads today’s poetry, other from those who write or talk about it?
When I read quotes such as’ Never prostitute your art for mere public recognition’ and ‘Poetry doesn’t require to be understood’ I feel pretty close to Fry’s views. What happened to the old maxim ‘ Never loose your audience’
it's not true though is it? Poetry by reputable authors is published and read, though by a minority.
It doesn't get much press, but it's still going on. And yes, there is a lot of stuff written by amateurs.
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