Oh okay, I gotcha. And I know what you mean, there are a lot of hypocrites out there.Originally Posted by HCabret
Oh okay, I gotcha. And I know what you mean, there are a lot of hypocrites out there.
Just as you get annoyed by evangalists that try to convert you HCabret, I had many years in the Middle East getting the same blinkered approach regards Islam. And so now I adopt the same level of intransigence. I have no intention of trying to convert anyone. You might be interested to know as an aside that Plato, the Greek philosopher, in his Symposium 203, wrote: "No god associates with men," and Aristotle in his Nichomachean Ethics 8. 7 wrote that friendship of a god with a man is impossible as the distance is too great.
As one of the hypocrites, I thought maybe I'd chime in. I intend this without malice because I am a hypocrite. I know that I should be more like Christ--more loving, more patient, less lazy. etc.--and I try to be better (though, to be honest I don't try as much as I should), but I fail.
That's the point. I fail. Always. I might be loved by my neighbors, I might be better than most, but I'm never truly good. No one is.
Who is Jesus? The Bible says he is the eternal Son of God, who became true man in order to be my substitute. He lived a life without failings--where I'm rude, selfish, etc. he remained pure and blameless. The righteous life he lived and the reward that goes with it he gave to me--because I needed it, not because I deserve it. In exchange he took my guilt, the responsibility for my sin. In his death he suffered his Father's rejection--rejection my sins deserved.
As far as evidence for Jesus existing--what do you call the Bible? What do you call the community of believers that sprang up in his name? It may be evidence with a bias--and why shouldn't it have a bias--but that's not the same as being unreliable or not existing.
I have been both an Atheist and a Christian, and to me Jesus is an ideology that we all should live by. Regardless of religious sect or differences, the Bible (New Testament) is all about peach, love, and treating others with respect. Even if you do or do not believe in Jesus, the overall teachings are something every human should live up to.
I personally do not go along with simplistic dogma that Jesus was without sin. In fact it is one of the reasons I can relate to him.
He could be rude to his mother, lose his temper, sometimes resorting to violence (temple), even appreciated a nice glass of wine and the company of what was regarded in those days as somewhat dubious company.
I wish our politicians could be less of all things to all men and more mortal.
Although I am non-religious, indeed I am an atheist, I grew up in a Catholic home and continue to be fascinated with Jesus and early Christianity from a more or less academic point of view. I am convinced that Jesus was a historical person. There is just too much evidence for his existence to deny it.
In Rome, in the year 93, Josephus published his history of the Jewish people. In it is the earliest non-Christian reference to Jesus, a single paragraph:
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“At that time lived Jesus, a holy man, if man he may be called, for he performed wonderful works, and taught men, and joyfully received the truth. And he was followed by many Jews and many Greeks. He was the Messiah.”
Some scholars argue that the paragraph or parts of it was inserted into Josephus’s document at a later date, but there are other writings in addition to the gospels that are thought to have been composed within the first 100 years or even 50 years of Jesus’s death, that speak of Jesus and/or the large community of Christians, which also begs the question, if there was no Jesus, then where did all the Christians come from?
Will and Ariel Durant, American historians who wrote The Story of Civilization over a 40-year period, talk about some of these writings in their section on Caesar and Christ:
“About the middle of this first century a pagan named Thallus, in a fragment preserved by Julius Africanus, argued that the abnormal darkness alleged to have accompanied the death of Christ was a purely natural phenomenon and coincidence; the argument took the existence of Christ for granted. The denial of that existence seems never to have occurred even to the bitterest gentile or Jewish opponents of nascent Christianity.
“The Christian evidence for Christ begins with the letters ascribed to Saint Paul. Some of these are of uncertain authorship; several, antedating A.D. 64, are almost universally accounted as substantially genuine. No one has questioned the existence of Paul, or his repeated meetings with Peter, James, and John; and Paul enviously admits that these men had known Christ in the flesh.”
The four New Testament gospels are believed to have been composed between 60 and 120 AD. There is remarkable consistency between them, especially between Mathew, Mark and Luke (although there are also minor contradictions). There is a writing from Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, dated about 135 AD that says that Mark composed his gospel from memories conveyed to him by Peter. I also think that the details presented in the gospels, especially of the last days of Jesus - the Last Supper, the agony in the Garden of Gethsemane, the betrayal of Judas, the denial of Peter, the spiriting away of Jesus to the home of Caiaphas, the reluctance of Pontius Pilate to execute what he thought was an innocent man, the release of Barabbas, the torture and crucifixion, the presence of Mary and Mary Magdelene and Jesus’s desperate cry on the cross, and all the smaller details presented in each of these events - could not have been conjured up by any writers of fiction.
(While I cannot believe in the Resurrection, I do find the details of this fascinating, especially that at the times when Jesus appears to his disciples after his death, they often at first do not recognize him. If the gospels were written solely for the purpose of proclaiming Jesus as the Son of God, why would the authors include details like that?)
In addition, there are many other gospels that have been re-discovered in the last century - the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Judas, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Nicodemus and probably some other writings that I am not aware of. Some of these exist only in fragments, but all of them add to the body of relatively early writings about Jesus, which by their very existence adds to the evidence of Jesus’s historicity.
I agree with Will and Ariel Durant’s conclusion, “That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful and appealing a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.”
Last edited by 108 fountains; 11-07-2014 at 02:04 AM.
A just conception of life is too large a thing to grasp during the short interval of passing through it.
Thomas Hardy
Yes I think it is a reasonable assumption that such a man did live in those times but the real question still remains i.e. was he the son of god? To the Romans such a man would have been a potential terrorist and as such they would have kept a close eye on his activities.
Anyone can say that their the son of god but obviously they would have to prove it to be believed and according to the scriptures that’s precisely what he did in the numerous miracles he performed in pubic demonstrations. Imagine the reaction if that happened today, someone who could heal any illness with a touch of his hand, could actually raise the dead etc. The effect would be astounding and probably wipe most of the other news off the front pages world wide.
Yet the Romans, who must have kept him under close observation, make not a single reference to these mind boggling events in their records; moreover they execute him in a time when anyone was lucky to reach the age of forty. Really? You kill the only person that can prolong your life span, sorry, that stretches credibility a touch too far for me.
Well, it’s more likely that if the Romans had even heard of Jesus at all during his lifetime (Jerusalem and its environs was a remote outpost for the Romans of that time), the stories most probably would have been dismissed as the result of the overactive imaginations of a superstitious local folk. It seems interesting to me also that, if they were aware of the prophecy of resurrection on the third day, why didn't they triple the guard around the tomb for the first several days - most likely, it seems to me, that they just simply dismissed such stories. (An Indian mystic, Sai Baba who died a couple of years ago, reportedly performed similar miracles. The only reason I ever heard of him is because I lived in India for a time. Those Westerners in general who might have heard of him, as well as many Indians, just simply didn’t believe the stories.)
I also dismiss the stories of the miracles performed by Jesus for the same reason (although I do think that healing is possible in some instances, but only through the power of the mind and the placebo effect). But I think your point about the real question – was he the Son of God? – is extremely interesting. The gospels of Mathew Mark and Luke all relate that Caiaphas asked Jesus point blank “Are you the Son of God?” Only in Mark, does Jesus answer “I am.” In Mathew, he relies, “Thou has said so.” And in Luke, he replies, “Ye say that I am.” He answers Pontius Pilate similarly when asked “Are you the King of the Jews?”
Knowing that there are many versions of the gospels in English alone, and that there could be innumerable errors in translation and transcription over the course of 2000 years, I still would find it interesting to talk with a scholar who knew and could read the earliest Greek/Hebrew texts. (I think the earliest known copies of the New Testament gospels are in Greek translated from Hebrew; some of the fragments of other gospels discovered in clay containers in the mid-20th century are in Hebrew, if I’m not mistaken, but I don’t know and don’t think any of them contain accounts of the crucifixion.) I’d like to know the differences in nuance and meaning between “I am” and “You say that I am” in the original language.
Jesus is also often referred to as the Son of Man in different parts of the gospels, and I would be curious to know what the connotations are of that phrase in the original language(s).
Finally, even if he said “I am the Son of God,” what does that mean? Can it not be said that we are all the children of God? I do know that the early Christian communities debated the question, with some like the Gnostics taking the view that he was a human being and others believing him to be a deity. The Catholic Church did not come to a conclusive decision on the question until the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.
One other note on the gospels… Most scholars put Jesus’s death in the year 30 AD. He was young – somewhere probably between 30 and 35 years old. Many of his followers were younger, so it is quite plausible that some of the gospels, believed to be written between 60 and 120 AD, could have been written by or at least informed by eyewitnesses. I don’t pretend to be an expert on these matters, but I’m interested in them and would love to hear what others think, especially those who have studied them from an academic rather than a Christian point of view.
A just conception of life is too large a thing to grasp during the short interval of passing through it.
Thomas Hardy
Peace be on all.
Jesus [Hazrat Esa], according to my Ahmadiyya Muslim understanding was sent in the Hazrat Moses [Musa]'s dispensation. His work was to reform followers of Moses with soft teaching, who had become hard hearted with the passage of time..... Elijah was written to come before Messiah, Jesus explained he was John [Yahya].
Hazrat Muhammad (peace and blessings be on him and all Prophets) explained the verse 4 of chapter 62, Holy Quran that a time would come when faith would ascend [Bukhari] to Pleiades, a man would bring it back [i.e. parctice on faith would become weak, a person will restore it].....In other Sayings of his, Esa , Mahdi names are mentioned to come in latter days. A Saying tell: Mahdi is none but Esa......Then lot of interconnected signs from earth and heavens are also mentioned about latter days era (1000 years).
Ahamdiyya Muslim understanding from Quran, Bible, History and Old Medical Books tells that Jesus was put on cross on such time when he could be NOT BE left for long on cross. The governor Pilate knew Jesus was innocent so he planned things. Jesus was taken alive from cross, put is tomb, cured with 'marham esa' (Jesus' ointment), then he migrated, he met disciple who thought it was ghost, he asked to touch and he ate fish.
His remaining in tomb was as Jonna was in fish. Both survived. Jesus migrated to find lost sheep (tribes of Israel), he went through Iran, Afghanistan, Panjab, the Kashmir, where he did his work with success and died at the age 120 with great success. In northern Pakistan a city is called Murree, indicates Mary was with Jesus during migration.
In Holy Quran, likeness of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned as Prophet Moses (a.s.), thereby as a refomer Messiah came in Moses' chain, a Messiah was mentioned to reform Muhammad's followers. Why he is called Esa /Jesus? It was to indicate stress on softness. He was also called Mahdi, which means guided one, means he would be guided by God to be a Judge and Arbiter.
Jesus gave a land mark verdict when he said Elijah was John the baptist.
When Jesus is in same position and being thought to come in original body. Obviously someone else is to come with properties of Jesus. Such metaphors are not new in religion. For example, at a place in Quran, God tells that when people made pledge of allegiance with prophet Muhammad it was hand of God over their hands. Such metaphors shows closeness, not in literal sense. Same is true for idiom 'son of God'.
For Ahmadiyya Muslims he has come in 1889 in India as ardent devotee of last-Prophet-with-last-Shariah-Muhammad (pbuh). The metaphoric second coming is as subordinate Prophet since Prophet Muhammad called him four time 'Prophet of Allah' in Hadith.
Prophet Muhammad pbuh, said after him there would be Khilafat as long as Allah Wills, then he mentioned types of harsh kings-ships, the he said, khilafat on the precept of Prophethood will come, then he stopped.
It shows, the re-emergence of Khilafat.
Ahamdiyya Muslims have Promised Messiah came, and then his Khilafat continues now with millions peaceful educated people worldwide striving to spread goodness in world without use of any force or any wish to capture lands. They only wish they have, is to capture hearts for the sake of God.
More in 'Jesus in India' in book section alislam.org
PLEASE NOTE: Important edit, bold capitols are added on November 9, sorry I missed.
Last edited by YALASH; 11-09-2014 at 10:30 AM.
Peace be on you and everyone. Online Books on Moral and Spiritual Reforms.
i wish more people agreed with you.
That's very interesting Yalash. Is it only the Ahmadiyya sect that believes this of Jesus? What do the Sunni and Shi'a say about the crucifixion and resurrection? (Pardon my lack of knowledge about the Quran and Islamic beliefs.
A just conception of life is too large a thing to grasp during the short interval of passing through it.
Thomas Hardy
The stories most probably would have been dismissed as the result of the overactive imaginations of a superstitious local folk.
I think not (Matthew 8:5-13).
When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." 7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him.
Nice try but it’s very hard to believe that the occupying force i.e. the Romans knew nothing of these miracles carried out in the public domain including Jerusalem which was under their direct control. According to the bible it was the Romans who were responsible for his trial and his execution.
The only references to these miracles are in the bible, a collection of texts assembled into a book form 350 years after his death, neither the Roman records of that time or the Dead Sea Scrolls mention him by name.
Although I have no religious beliefs I am not attacking those who do; personally I think J.C did exist and that he was the founder of the Christian faith but the son of God? Sorry no.
Peace be on you.
1= First plz check, I have made an important edit; the words I had missed.
2= In fact, these are only Ahmadiyya Muslim views with arguments and signs and there are more independent voices in this favour.
3= In general, other Muslims think Jesus will come back and another person Mahdi will come too. Jesus will offer Prayer behind him. Currently it is 1436 AH [AH: After Hijra of Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) from Mecca to Medina] according to Islamic calender; decades ago they were sure his supposed coming would be within 1400 era. But their thought did not came true. Then latter slowly they just do not speak much about it. The most waits for Jesus coming from heavens, how? some say literally, other think he will be born etc. They take Jesus and Mahdi two different person, with variations in details; many think he will kill all infidels. All this the based on alleged sayings. These sayings were invented by people to please their specific dynasty leaders and they tends to favour them. It makes wide and deep confusion. The idea of Jesus coming from heavens has come when Islam spread very fast in the beginning, people brought this idea with them. Hadith used the word 'nozul' of Jesus. It is respectful word for coming. It was ttaken literally for coming from sky. Holy Quran has used the word for 'iron', for Prophet; just meant these are bounties., not that they are coming from sky.
4=But there is very easy way, Holy Prophet's true sayings are so well connected that they are like a connected cars in a train. They mention latter days' events in terms of morals, inventions, new knowledge, global village phenomenon, diseases, new canals, vehicles, human right, wars and so on...They cannot be made artificially.
Once in while, some people claim about to be Mahdi or Khalifa. Just please see, a person call himself Khalifah and he and his group is beheading and mistreating innocent fellow Muslims and innocent non Muslim Media people. Could they be from Allah?
The one who comes (and has come as Ahmadiyya Muslims believe @ alislam.org) from Allah, comes to establish rights of Allah and rights of all Creation; he comes to spread peace, love and service for everyone. It has always been the case. When true person comes, mafias see him as enemy as they see masses will go with him.
Practically see, what is happening, one after one, Muslim countries started to fall [amazingly many of them were liberated with the help of Ahmadiyya Scholar / President of International court of Justice Hague, Sir Zaffrullah Khan's efforts in UNO], their societies are in multi-directional troubles, many are immigrating to West. How much more they will wait for savior to come from sky?
On the other hand, their promised saviour Promised Messiah as Mahdi has already come according to Ahmadiyya Muslims and he has asked to make reforms in their morals, ethics and conduct. He ask them to put down arms and take up pens, prayers and relation with God by returning to true peaceful Islam which they have forgotten because of several reasons including lack of education, hold of politico-clergies etc.
Humbly think, it is enough, it is fact.
Good wishes. (much at alislam.org)
Peace be on you and everyone. Online Books on Moral and Spiritual Reforms.
These sayings, which ones?But their thought did not came true. Then latter slowly they just do not speak much about it. The most waits for Jesus coming from heavens, how? some say literally, other think he will be born etc. They take Jesus and Mahdi two different person, with variations in details; many think he will kill all infidels. All this the based on alleged sayings. These sayings were invented by people to please their specific dynasty leaders and they tends to favour them. It makes wide and deep confusion.
1-Jesus and Mahdi being two different person,
2-many think he will kill all infidels
3- Jesus coming from heavens
or all of the above?
As far have searched and browsed about this topic, have never come across any tradition being labeled this as a self-invented one (meaning that after the Islamic prophet). Can you clarify this point?
Thank you
Last edited by Bleeding Pawn; 11-09-2014 at 03:56 PM.
Peace be on you.
On net search one may find:
Quote:
1. There will be no Mahdi and no Isa, ie. the return of Jesus. (Classified fabricated by Shawkaani and Saghaani)
2. The Mahdi shall come from the lineage of my uncle Abbas. (Classified fabricated by Ibn Adee)
https://standup4islam.wordpress.com/...cated-hadiths/
and
Quote
There is also the Hadith narrated by Thawban (may Allah be pleased with him) in which the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “If you see the black banners emerging from Khurasan, seek to join their supporters even if creeping, because among them will be caliph Al-Mahdi.” That Hadith was reported by Al-Hakim and Ahmad. But the chains of narration of that hadith were all unauthentic, though some Hadith scholars rendered it sound in general.
Some people stated that the aforementioned Hadith is cited to support that Al-Mahdi will emerge from among the Abbasid State. That Hadith might be fabricated altogether or its words might be distorted so as to support the Abbasid State.
http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-t...the_Last_Hour=
Both Sunni Muslims and Shia are awaiting a person whose is referred to as Al-Mahdi (Shia call him Imam Mahdi because they are expecting him to be their 12th Imam). However, both the identity and characteristics of the Mahdi of the Sunnis are significantly different from the identity and characteristics of Shia's Imam Mahdi.
http://www.discoveringislam.org/shia_mahdi.htm
There are differences.
The resolution of differences was one of the objective of the promised reformer.
And the promised Reformer was called Hakam and Adal [Arbiter and Judge], he was to tell by the God-granted knowledge [being Mahdi (the guided one)] what is the real path which is hidden under so many things. For Ahmadiyya Muslim such a figure has come for spiritual and moral reform and the peaceful movement is on under a Khalifah (may Allah be his Helper).
Here one find many arguments: http://www.alislam.org/library/books...Holy-Quran.pdf
Good wishes.
Last edited by YALASH; 11-11-2014 at 11:13 AM.
Peace be on you and everyone. Online Books on Moral and Spiritual Reforms.
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