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Thread: Self-image

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    Self-image

    This is something I believe is very important and has been on my mind lately. What is self-image and why is it important? This is not meant to be a philosophical question. It is quite real. This image you have built of yourself, which runs deep, is quite real. You have built it on what, exactly? You don't know. Has culture given it to you, or has it been acquired and maintained through comparison with others? You see that you are fractured somewhat by any deviation from this carefully cultivated idea of what you should be. You have an idea of yourself and this is important. By you of course I mean all people. So I'm afraid to be seen in certain ways because it deviates from an image that was given to me by others. It's very odd to me and I can't understand it. I suppose when it comes down it, it doesn't matter so much. People seem to be so self-absorbed and self-interested that others are just like blips on a screen. The big focus is on the self and the maintenance of an image. It's all very odd. And it's tiresome. For really, there is nothing to maintain, but thought is habitual. How dull it can be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jajdude View Post
    This is something I believe is very important and has been on my mind lately. What is self-image and why is it important? This is not meant to be a philosophical question. It is quite real. This image you have built of yourself, which runs deep, is quite real. You have built it on what, exactly? You don't know. Has culture given it to you, or has it been acquired and maintained through comparison with others? You see that you are fractured somewhat by any deviation from this carefully cultivated idea of what you should be. You have an idea of yourself and this is important. By you of course I mean all people. So I'm afraid to be seen in certain ways because it deviates from an image that was given to me by others. It's very odd to me and I can't understand it. I suppose when it comes down it, it doesn't matter so much. People seem to be so self-absorbed and self-interested that others are just like blips on a screen. The big focus is on the self and the maintenance of an image. It's all very odd. And it's tiresome. For really, there is nothing to maintain, but thought is habitual. How dull it can be.
    An interesting question. How important it is depends upon who you ask, though those who claim they don't care about their image are as careful in cultivating this lack of concern - perhaps they mean cool - as anyone else.

    If you asked a Buddhist, they may say that self image - the notion of an I - is a concept that has no existence beyond a label. If this were true, then there has been a lot of pain and misery inflicted because of real or imagined attacks on people's sense of self which they are very defensive about.

    Buddhists go further than that and claim that the false sense of an I is the root of all beings' problems as they try to protect, nurture and gain happiness by unwise means.

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    I can't speak of Buddhism. That all sounds like nonsense to me. Too sectarian I suppose. I'm talking about this day to day creature which is concerned with itself, which maintains its habits and has an ideal to uphold. It's a dull creature, and has no virtue. It's a psychological slave, and its psychology is unhappily the offspring of a million idiots. It is full of envy, and all the other awful things of society. Only once in a while it goes quiet, reflective, passive. Then it sees some things sort of clearly. Mostly it's a pain in the bum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jajdude View Post
    I can't speak of Buddhism. That all sounds like nonsense to me. Too sectarian I suppose. I'm talking about this day to day creature which is concerned with itself, which maintains its habits and has an ideal to uphold. It's a dull creature, and has no virtue. It's a psychological slave, and its psychology is unhappily the offspring of a million idiots. It is full of envy, and all the other awful things of society. Only once in a while it goes quiet, reflective, passive. Then it sees some things sort of clearly. Mostly it's a pain in the bum.
    Haha. All the things you describe are what the Buddhist idea of self talks about. It's a big idea couched in everyday experience. I just popped it in as it is relevant, but it's up to you whether it is worth pursuing. It's still an interesting topic.

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    Oh, in that case why call it Buddhism if it's just about trying to understand oneself and this image we try to maintain. I'm sure it's about other stuff too. Maybe it's not as mystical or whatever as I might have guessed. Sometimes I wonder if it's possible to live without this image. It seems to cause problems that nobody needs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jajdude View Post
    Oh, in that case why call it Buddhism if it's just about trying to understand oneself and this image we try to maintain. I'm sure it's about other stuff too. Maybe it's not as mystical or whatever as I might have guessed. Sometimes I wonder if it's possible to live without this image. It seems to cause problems that nobody needs.
    It's about the whole experience - there is a mystical side to it too. For the usual practitioner, it's about their state initially.

    Quite a bit of Buddhism has been adopted or co-opted into psychological techniques - mindfulness for example.

    It's the problem with self image that Buddhism tries to solve.

    The question is - is the self image a complete entity or is it made up of parts that can be modified/ reduced or eliminated?

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    I guess the only person I can think of who was able to live without a self-image (consistently?) would be J. Krishnamurti, according to his writings and talks. Of course he goes into many things about the self, how it is made up by society and so on. One thing he spoke of was if you are able to live without such an image, then there is nothing that can be hurt psychologically. I suppose this means that another person's words, however cruel or even flattering the intent, will not affect you much, if at all. You will not be dependent psychologically on anyone. Perhaps also that you will not see anyone as above or beneath yourself in any way, as you have stopped comparing. This implies, I suppose, that you are essentially aware, whatever that involves, that you are nothing but what has been put together by society, culture, conditioning, and the traditions of thousands of years. It all sounds very complex, as our consciousness no doubt is. To understand all that must be incredible.
    Last edited by jajdude; 02-22-2014 at 10:39 AM.

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    There are positive aspects to self image - it's like the effects of something like labelling theory where a person becomes - or co-operates with - the image imposed upon them by others. If you think of yourself as a kind person, then are you more likely to act kindly?

    Is it about taking control of your self image and rejecting negative ones and developing positive ones? I suppose it's also about realising which ones are actually negative. Machismo comes to mind where for males in male company it fuels regard and self regard, but can casue problems with friends and family who don't see machismo in a positive light, and who may suffer its consequences. I can see machismo as being potentially negative when dealing with young children for example.

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    "Is it about taking control of your self image and rejecting negative ones and developing positive ones?"

    Then perhaps we are in a kind of conflict. What is it that is taking control? One part of the mind controlling another part? This may be the common notion, I suppose, that there is an overseer of thought, a "you" who controls the rest of what goes on psychologically. This overseer, if that is the right word, is also thought. So what you have there is just a kind of division between one thought and another. It's cunning that invents this. Any idea you have about yourself, as a kind person, or a hard-working person, or whatever, is not really following what you are from one moment to the next. An idea seems to me to be a fixed thing, whereas we are living, changing beings. You may indeed be kind, most of the time anyway. Others will see you that way, that is form an image of you as that. You will probably form the image of yourself, and of others in the same way. This image-forming blocks looking at whatever you are from one moment to the next, and it works the same way when looking at others. Whatever the self is, it is not a consistent thing, it's alive and changes, though it may well be quite habitual, as most of us are. Here we are getting into problems with how we relate to each other as well, not seeing the other or even ourselves as fully alive in the moment, I suppose, but through images. I know I already have fixed ideas about people I know, and I have a hard time seeing them any other way. I've already reached conclusions about who they are, and no doubt they've done it for me. So, we need to see the idea for what it is, a dead thing that looks at a living entity.

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    One part of the mind controlling another part? This may be the common notion, I suppose, that there is an overseer of thought, a "you" who controls the rest of what goes on psychologically

    This is the experience of meditators who examine the mind. It seems to be counterintuitive, but if true it means that there is space in which to examine oneself and make changes. If a person's view was wholly outward and there was no facility to observe oneself, then true reflection upon oneself would be impossible as the entity that is the self would be entire and complete. As we can reflect upon ourself, then this suggests that the self is not an entire whole, but is composed of parts that can be examined and modified.

    I wouldn't say it was a common view - I think many people just do not consider the idea and use the catch all notion of a soul to try to express some sense of an inner or deeper self. I also think if you press people on this, then they are quite unclear about what they really mean, falling back on some general idea they assume everyone has accepted. It's very interesting.

    One model that might work is to see the self as levels of mind. Our gross self is where we seem to exist if we don't examine ourselves and investigate the notion. I like this idea as it explains why people sometimes do things that seem out of character, but which may be an expression of something from the deeper levels of the mind.

    I think you make some very intersting and perceptive points.

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    It's strange how important these images are to us, and they play a huge role in our lives every day. I wonder how the self-image is made. It doesn't seem to be a totally fixed or static thing, but something that doesn't like to stray too far from its own little place of comfort. In seeing your day to day activities and in being even a bit aware of your thoughts, you'll notice we are boring creatures, monotonous and habitual. We are fairly consistent in our behaviors and reactions, because we are so habitual, and we call this our personality. Something else that goes on, and we are well-trained to believe this, is that we think we are unique, different from others. In some trivial ways I guess that is true. We obviously occupy different bodies and have had some different experiences in our lives. I wonder if our minds are much different, our psychology. We might look at society and comment on how awful it is, as if we are somehow different from it. Is there any difference at all between you and society? Aren't all the things that go on outside of you the same as what goes on inside of you, more or less? This great struggle to succeed, to be somebody, with all the pettiness and envy, the ugly nationalism, the fears and judgements and criticisms and on and on.. It's going on all over the world and it's in the daily life of every person. You hear people comment, and on the Internet, how much people suck. It's as though they are saying, almost everyone is terrible but me. Well, how are you different, really? Didn't the society create whatever you are? You can't live outside it. The urges and fears and everything else that goes on in everybody else also go on in you.

    I'm tired now, but it's interesting talking about these things. Most people I know would have no interest. I think they'd dismiss it quickly as nonsense. It doesn't seem to have any practicality, it's not about making money or getting ahead in life or getting laid or any of that. But we're going to live and die without understanding ourselves if there is no real interest in such things. Then our lives will have been meaningless anyway.
    Last edited by jajdude; 02-25-2014 at 10:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jajdude View Post
    It's strange how important these images are to us, and they play a huge role in our lives every day. I wonder how the self-image is made. It doesn't seem to be a totally fixed or static thing, but something that doesn't like to stray too far from its own little place of comfort. In seeing your day to day activities and in being even a bit aware of your thoughts, you'll notice we are boring creatures, monotonous and habitual. We are fairly consistent in our behaviors and reactions, because we are so habitual, and we call this our personality. Something else that goes on, and we are well-trained to believe this, is that we think we are unique, different from others. In some trivial ways I guess that is true. We obviously occupy different bodies and have had some different experiences in our lives. I wonder if our minds are much different, our psychology. We might look at society and comment on how awful it is, as if we are somehow different from it. Is there any difference at all between you and society? Aren't all the things that go on outside of you the same as what goes on inside of you, more or less? This great struggle to succeed, to be somebody, with all the pettiness and envy, the ugly nationalism, the fears and judgements and criticisms and on and on.. It's going on all over the world and it's in the daily life of every person. You hear people comment, and on the Internet, how much people suck. It's as though they are saying, almost everyone is terrible but me. Well, how are you different, really? Didn't the society create whatever you are? You can't live outside it. The urges and fears and everything else that goes on in everybody else also go on in you.

    I'm tired now, but it's interesting talking about these things. Most people I know would have no interest. I think they'd dismiss it quickly as nonsense. It doesn't seem to have any practicality, it's not about making money or getting ahead in life or getting laid or any of that. But we're going to live and die without understanding ourselves if there is no real interest in such things. Then our lives will have been meaningless anyway.
    , You're right about the pre-occupations and people's attitudes etc. Absolutely right. How similar we all are and how tedious is the constant moaning. As we've had a few bereavements over the past year, I got to reflect on people who pass into history, and the only conclusion - when you get a chance to look at their life - is that they are pretty much like you. The environment changes slightly, but the problems and preoccupations remain the same.

    You're right in that you've reached an uncommon conclusion through self image. The question is what do you do with this knowledge or rather insight? It's clearly quite depressing, but it can be turned to your advantage. You can rise above ordinary notions of self image and be unaffected by them, or at least have insight into them. Where will it take you I wonder?

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    Paul, I didn't even notice your reply until now. I'm glad to have this back and forth with you. I don't visit this site as often as before. I'm not a serious person. I smoke and I drink. I play with ideas. I understand there is a lot more to life and what goes on in the human mind, that we've rarely even touched. I doubt there's a conclusion to reach.

    One thing I've noticed recently, and I suppose this regards fear, which I seem to have a lot of, is that the old reaction, or the conditioned response, jumps out so quickly and there is no understanding of it. Only afterwards thought again interposes and wonders, what the hell was that?

    We have so many things going on it is insane. We barely scratch the surface. Each thing demands a sensitive mind, an inquiring mind, not one limited to conclusions and beliefs. We have our fears, our loneliness, our silly religious beliefs, our idiotic nationalism and much more. It's kind of frightening because all these things, and I'm sure you can list many more, dominate us, and we accept them as being normal. Our violence, our killing. Recently, I tried to tackle the question of nationalism on another site. I doubt it meant anything. How ugly it is, not to condemn it, but to see the gross separation of it. The organized religions too. The utter conditioning, the being born here or there and taking it all in and living and dying with the propaganda. There's no intelligence in any of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jajdude View Post
    Paul, I didn't even notice your reply until now. I'm glad to have this back and forth with you. I don't visit this site as often as before. I'm not a serious person. I smoke and I drink. I play with ideas. I understand there is a lot more to life and what goes on in the human mind, that we've rarely even touched. I doubt there's a conclusion to reach.

    One thing I've noticed recently, and I suppose this regards fear, which I seem to have a lot of, is that the old reaction, or the conditioned response, jumps out so quickly and there is no understanding of it. Only afterwards thought again interposes and wonders, what the hell was that?

    We have so many things going on it is insane. We barely scratch the surface. Each thing demands a sensitive mind, an inquiring mind, not one limited to conclusions and beliefs. We have our fears, our loneliness, our silly religious beliefs, our idiotic nationalism and much more. It's kind of frightening because all these things, and I'm sure you can list many more, dominate us, and we accept them as being normal. Our violence, our killing. Recently, I tried to tackle the question of nationalism on another site. I doubt it meant anything. How ugly it is, not to condemn it, but to see the gross separation of it. The organized religions too. The utter conditioning, the being born here or there and taking it all in and living and dying with the propaganda. There's no intelligence in any of that.
    One thing certain is that many people do not even look at the ideas you're talking about. Sadly they don't even have the opportunity to reject them. What are you looking to do? Write? Self image is a broad topic going into feminism, psychology, nationhood and stereotyping etc etc. The easiest and also the hardest to look at is definitely becoming aware of and positively modifying your own self image. It's a noble cause though - becoming a better person.

    It's quite clear that things like nation etc are convenient constructions that can rally people. In reality our personal "nation" is our family, friends and neighbours. Some people are even kind to strangers. I used to wonder why men carried on fighting in wars, and concluded that they were fighting as they said for their personal nation - their mates.

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    Well, no, I'm not looking to do anything. I'm just playing with ideas. Jesus, the ego that this even means a bean to more than you and me.

    I'm just an average guy looking at his life, as we all must, at least once in while. Sometimes though it is a shock to see the utter inanity. This goes on in me and you, don't kid yourself that you are separate from it, nor me of course, I'm sort of aware of my own hypocrisies and stupidities. Dimly, I guess. I'm like everybody else, going on with small stuff, how to get somewhere, the projection of the future, which is a fact, and how it might be better. It's interesting and dull at the same time I guess.

    What most people talk about is changing the outward structures, the politics, or the ways of society, that you know, are also entirely what you are, that thought itself has created. Well, thought has invented it all. That's pretty dull. And the prevailing thought across the world is that a change in the rules or the laws or whatever will then invoke a change in society somehow. This has never worked. So there is only one thing to change. The inward self. I can't talk seriously on the subject, I'm just spouting words, as I'm not serious about it.
    Last edited by jajdude; 03-08-2014 at 11:20 PM.

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