We'll all be on a surface no matter where we go. That's complete and good enough.
We'll all be on a surface no matter where we go. That's complete and good enough.
Unless you factor in the lake of fire in Revelations:21:8 (Rev 19:20, Matthew 25:41, Matthew 10:6-15, Romans 2:5-16, etc)Originally Posted by cafolini
Sorry, I'm just the messenger...don't shoot the messenger
Live in the sunshine. Swim in the sea. Drink the wild air ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
If you want to play numbers, you are going to lose by an order of magnitude.
There is evidence everywhere of the enormous decline in religious faith in every part of the world where relative freedom of thought exists. A few, fundamentals are growing, but every other religious organisation is seeing a massive decline as the last remaining generation of fully religious people die out.
Your move.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
Yeah, I get that!
I have a yawning, empty feeling in my ..... let's call it my stomach! That's it. I have a yawning, empty feeling in my stomach.
So I will eat something. What shall I eat? Those delicious-looking red berries seem to be plump and ripe and look exactly like tomatoes. And I love tomatoes!
Thankfully, my life's guardians - parents and teachers - have taught me along the way that those things are actually deadly poisonous berries called deadly nightshade, or belladonna. Allegedly sweet in taste, six will kill you.
The "spiritual" or seeker part of children's mind is filled with Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, as it used to be filled with witches & hobgoblins.
And god/s.
The yearn for answers is nothing new, and it's why we have the dual burdens of religion and philosophy.
Utterly right.
Which is it's really important not to waste huge swathes of the only life we'll have in pursuit of an unrealistic utopia or heaven.
Go to work, get married, have some kids, pay your taxes, pay your bills, watch your tv, follow fashion, act normal, obey the law and repeat after me: "I am free."
Anon
If it's your only life, as you say, then I agree, don't waste it, party on, because it will soon be over and it will all be meaningless. But if it's earthly life plus eternal life then it's immeasurably worthwhile.
Last edited by Melanie; 10-12-2013 at 11:40 PM.
Live in the sunshine. Swim in the sea. Drink the wild air ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
I'm not saying people are becoming more religious. All I'm simply saying is that people everyday convert from one religion to another. That's all. But yes, religion for the most part is something that is being tossed on the back-burner.
But having become serious in my faith just this past year or so, I have never been more free. Being taught by Christ to keep my childlike wonder, I have learned so much. I cannot thank him enough. He is the love of my life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
I find meaning in things I do everyday, in the moment, why do you think that would "all be meaningless"? Think of a game of tennis, when it's over nothing has been produced, does that make it meaningless? No - the meaning is in the doing - same with life.
Yes, but there is no evidence that eternal life actually exists. In any case, isn't "today" of immeasurable worth? Seize the day!But if it's earthly life plus eternal life then it's immeasurably worthwhile.
I said, when it's over it will be meaningless without eternal life....key word is "over"
Live in the sunshine. Swim in the sea. Drink the wild air ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
Not to mention without eternal life there is no real justice. It's all arbitrary without immortality. People get away with stuff all the time. What's stopping them if they know they can get away with something? What's stopping them if there is no absolute right and wrong?
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
People also get caught very often. If you are earning enough to live, why would anyone rational commit a crime? There is always the fear of getting caught, even if you don't actually get caught.
Also, the crime rate has always been high amongst people who "say" they believe in God. If the threat of eternal damnation had ever been a real threat how come there has always been crime throughout the most Christian periods of history?
Habits of decency. The threat of jail time. Social disapprobation. Threat of loved ones disowning you. Squeamishness...What's stopping them if there is no absolute right and wrong?
There are many reasons to do the right thing, and many reasons not to do the wrong thing. You don't need to bring threat of eternal damnation into it.
Eternal damnation is not a threat. It's a choice.
Live in the sunshine. Swim in the sea. Drink the wild air ~Ralph Waldo Emerson
If there is no God, then there is no right and wrong. Right and wrong would be reduced to how many more people support a certain stance on an issue compared to the support of another angle. Might makes right, basically. Do you really believe might makes right? People's views change throughout history--they support one thing and reject another, adopt this doctrine and throw out the one they've known for years, become more open-minded here and more closed-minded there, etc. Is right and wrong really so petty that it is influenced by the phases of the moon? Is there no rational absolute? Is it based only on law, emotion, and social niceties? What if one can get beyond all that and do what he wants? What if he can commit a horrible act and be sure he can get away with it? Why should he not do it? What is stopping him if law and conscience are not? What justice is there for those who get away with murder, rape, and genocide?
And what about those sick people who kill their family and then suicide? If life ends when the body dies, and there is nothing left to face, why does any of it matter? Why should they care how it will affect those still living--family and friends? They won't even be around to think about anything anymore. When they die, so does everybody else. I think that is a very dangerous philosophy.
And, by the way, what is right and wrong to you? I can guarantee that we have very different stances on various issues. Is there such a thing to you? Or is it all just, "I personally believe this is wrong, but that's just me." There can be no other way if you don't believe in immortality. There can only be right and wrong if there is a being who has authority over us mortals. That's the only way.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
That would mean that philosophical rationalism - "having a conscience" - would be impossible without the belief in a singular omniscient deity - a concept with which roughly half a billion Buddhists might take issue.
Why does that matter? I'm just talking about ideas. Why should I care if I offend a Buddhist, or anyone else? People offend me all the time. They have every right to offend me, as I have the right to offend them with my ideas.
But what good is a conscience if there is no higher being to guide it? Is the truth in ourselves? A lot of people think that, and they still have all sorts of different ideas about right and wrong.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Of course there is. If a religious zealot beats me up for expressing an atheist view, then they are wrong, in my opinion. As I live in a civilised society, the forces of law would probably agree with me, and the religious zealot would get locked up. There is no absolute right or wrong, but that doesn't stop people & societies from defining right and wrong, and acting on those definitions.
But individuals in a democracy are not mighty, so they tend to agree that beating people up, because of their views, should be outlawed, or they themselves might got beaten up. In a democracy, an agreement to treat each other decently "makes right", and this doesn't need religious fanaticism to back it up.Right and wrong would be reduced to how many more people support a certain stance on an issue compared to the support of another angle. Might makes right, basically.
There has been some progress. People have slowly, and painfully, learned how to treat people better. Slavery ends, child labour is halted, women get the vote, atheists are allowed to attend Cambridge and are not thrown out for writing atheist pamphlets (as happened to Shelley...)People's views change throughout history--they support one thing and reject another, adopt this doctrine and throw out the one they've known for years, become more open-minded here and more closed-minded there, etc.
Law and emotion can be powerful, and habits of virtuous behaviour can be built up from childhood, even in atheistsIs right and wrong ... based only on law, emotion, and social niceties?. I feel no inclination to perform murder, rape, or genocide (!)
Atheists have a conscience! It's this kind of argument, put forward by moderate Christians, that leads to atheists being persecuted. Christian extremists take the argument and say, "I agree, he doesn't have a conscience, burn him!"What if one can get beyond all that and do what he wants? What if he can commit a horrible act and be sure he can get away with it? Why should he not do it? What is stopping him if law and conscience are not?
How can he be certain of getting beyond law? Look at all the tyrants who have fallen recently, even running a country doesn't let you off scot free. Think of Sadam, even when he was running Iraq he was always in fear of his life. If you treat people badly you must fear being badly treated yourself. That said, some people might get away with external justice being imposed on them, so we must continually defend justice. If a tyrant dies comfortably in his bed it's an incentive for us to try better at dethroning tyrants, and not retreat into fanatical religious quetism by trying to instill the belief, "he'll get his in hell", when there is no evidence that this will happen.What justice is there for those who get away with murder, rape, and genocide?
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