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Thread: God Speaking...anyone listening?

  1. #46
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal4mac View Post
    I've read much of the writings of Hitchens and Dawkins and don't remember any examples of them excusing the bad behaviour of other atheists. Have you any examples? I'd certainly vote for Dawkins, imagine having a minister for science who actually knows something about science!
    I think Hitchen's description of North Korea as a "religious" state when it is a state atheism is an example of attempting to excuse the bad behavior of atheists. Here's a quote: http://www.haveabit.com/hitchens/88001

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oedipus View Post
    Not believing in something does not mean building a world-view based on that lack of belief. Atheists have a vast range of approaches to life, of world-views. Secular humanism is one. You have the hubris to assume that everyone bases their life around a deity (or lack thereof), including atheists?
    It is fine for atheists to have whatever world views they want as long as they are tolerant of others to believe differently. I don't see that tolerance in either Hitchens or Dawkins. This is essentially a civil liberties issue.

  3. #48
    Registered User Oedipus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    It is fine for atheists to have whatever world views they want as long as they are tolerant of others to believe differently. I don't see that tolerance in either Hitchens or Dawkins. This is essentially a civil liberties issue.
    Than you have a problem with specific people; who happen to be intolerant in your opinion. You don't have any evidence that this is something more common in atheists. They have the right to say whatever they want about religion; just as religious people have the right to respond or ignore. They have not done anything to repress religious people directly. As for North Korea, it is well known that the worship of the ruling family acts as a kind of surrogate religion

  4. #49
    Registered User Oedipus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
    If you had read my post #42 regarding why God is not a mystery to me, you would know why I have no desire nor purpose for reading about Dawkins. There are more things to learn of "general culture" that I would consider "best use of my time".

    Regarding the existence of God being a mystery:

    God's existence is not a mystery to me
    I see proof daily all around me
    in every breath I take
    in every human relationship
    in every gift of love, joy, kindness
    in everything I learn
    every word, every smile
    looking into someone's eyes and seeing their soul
    i could go on and on...

    Show me the scientific evidence for those things...this could take awhile
    You don't think there is scientific evidence that breathing has a naturalistic explanation? Neuroscience has shown the roots of every human emotion; none of these things are a mystery, no matter how warm and fuzzy they make you feel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
    If you had read my post #42 regarding why God is not a mystery to me, you would know why I have no desire nor purpose for reading about Dawkins. There are more things to learn of "general culture" that I would consider "best use of my time".

    Regarding the existence of God being a mystery:

    God's existence is not a mystery to me
    I see proof daily all around me
    in every breath I take
    in every human relationship
    in every gift of love, joy, kindness
    in everything I learn
    every word, every smile
    looking into someone's eyes and seeing their soul
    i could go on and on...

    Show me the scientific evidence for those things...this could take awhile
    Of course. Unless one suffers utter stupidity it is impossible for God to be a mystery. We deal with the mystery of life. We could never resolve it and we refuse to discard it. Only God knows that. Who else? Not a single one of us or all of us together can give an answer. Hence our faith is in God. This is very obviously so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    I think Hitchen's description of North Korea as a "religious" state when it is a state atheism is an example of attempting to excuse the bad behavior of atheists. Here's a quote: http://www.haveabit.com/hitchens/88001
    The leader worship that goes on in perverted communist states like North Korea is very similar to religious worship. Judging all atheists by the actions of Kim Il-Sung is like judging all protestants by the actions of Henry VIII.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    It is fine for atheists to have whatever world views they want as long as they are tolerant of others to believe differently. I don't see that tolerance in either Hitchens or Dawkins. This is essentially a civil liberties issue.
    Of course they are tolerant! How have they interfered with anyone's civil liberties? They are robust in argument, but their words have never damaged anyone's civil liberties; quite the opposite, they have always been great supporters of civil liberty. Can you produce any quotes that show them being against civil liberty?

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
    Regarding the existence of God being a mystery:

    God's existence is not a mystery to me
    I see proof daily all around me
    in every breath I take...

    Show me the scientific evidence for those things...
    I agree with you that there is mystery in these things. Why is there breath? Why is there anything at all? Why are we conscious? I agree with you that science may not answer these most fundamental of questions. But why bring in God as an explanation of these mysteries? Today's science doesn't explain everything, perhaps science will never explain everything. But you can't explain away mystery by suggesting the answer is provided by the Old Testament God. Mystery is mystery, not God. There is no evidence for God, which is why other religions postulate Allah, Zeus, Odin, Brahma, and many other beings as the cause of everything. (Although there is no evidence for them either!) I don't see why you can't just live with the mystery, and pursue science to try and make inroads into solving some of the mysteries. Why do modern, intelligent, well read, people try and force themselves to believe in Christ, Mohammed, Buddha, Krishna, whoever? Isn't it time to classify these figures as "interesting, perhaps inspiring, fictional characters", like Santa Claus and the tooth fairy?
    Last edited by mal4mac; 09-30-2013 at 04:33 AM.

  9. #54
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    the question is would be to ask
    would a believer in god become an atheist and vice versa? many atheists convert to religion but would the opposite apply?
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    the question is would be to ask
    would a believer in god become an atheist and vice versa? many atheists convert to religion but would the opposite apply?
    Can you name any who have converted from atheism to religion? There are many who have converted the other way, e.g., Dawkins had "a normal Anglican upbringing" and was a Christian until his mid-teens years, Dawkins states: "the main residual reason why I was religious was from being so impressed with the complexity of life and feeling that it had to have a designer, and I think it was when I realised that Darwinism was a far superior explanation that pulled the rug out from under the argument of design. And that left me with nothing." http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...ienceandnature

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal4mac View Post
    Can you name any who have converted from atheism to religion? There are many who have converted the other way, e.g., Dawkins had "a normal Anglican upbringing" and was a Christian until his mid-teens years, Dawkins states: "the main residual reason why I was religious was from being so impressed with the complexity of life and feeling that it had to have a designer, and I think it was when I realised that Darwinism was a far superior explanation that pulled the rug out from under the argument of design. And that left me with nothing." http://www.theguardian.com/world/200...ienceandnature
    hi malmac was not cat stevens an atheist who turned into Islam the same with Jacques Cousteau upon finding the source of sweet water in the ocean?
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  12. #57
    Registered User Melanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal4mac View Post
    Can you name any who have converted from atheism to religion?
    Are you kidding? Gazillions. I guess you've never watched a Billy Graham Crusade. One that comes to mind is Josh McDowell. When he was young he considered himself an agnostic. Here are two accounts of his transformation from agnostic to Christianity that only touches the surface:

    "He truly believed that Christianity was worthless. However, when challenged to intellectually examine the claims of Christianity, Josh discovered compelling, overwhelming evidence for the reliability of the Christian faith. After trusting in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord, Josh’s life changed dramatically as he experienced the power of God’s love."

    "Eager to rail against the existence of a Savior, McDowell sought out conflict with the Christians he encountered in college. He mocked their beliefs and scorned their faith until they issued him a challenge: prove God doesn’t exist. Obsessively, McDowell traveled the world scouring sacred historical texts for evidence contradicting Christianity. What he found instead was truth — and a faith that led to grace and redeemed a broken man."

    He went on to publish his story in a quick read paperback called "More Than A Carpenter" and more recently a film called "Undaunted" you can find online. Eventually, he published 2 volumes of evidence for God's existence titled "Evidence That Demands A Verdict".

    Quote Originally Posted by mal4mac
    Why is there breath? Why is there anything at all? Why are we conscious? I agree with you that science may not answer these most fundamental of questions. But why bring in God as an explanation of these mysteries?
    Because I've experienced incredible answers to prayer that have no other explanation. And because I have read the New Testament (except Revelations...that will come in time) and found no contradictions when not taken out of context. And because I look around me and see proof everywhere. I know without a doubt.
    Last edited by Melanie; 09-30-2013 at 08:59 AM.
    Live in the sunshine. Swim in the sea. Drink the wild air ~Ralph Waldo Emerson

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    Registered User Oedipus's Avatar
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    Why not God heal amputees? After all, he does offer "incredible answers to prayer", does he not"? Strange how he never does anything that cannot be explained as coincidence

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanie View Post
    Are you kidding? ... One that comes to mind is Josh McDowell...
    OK I was kidding a bit Just wanted to see what names would come up. I've no idea who Josh McDowell is! But, unlike you, I'm always open to learning about someone new. I read his Wikipedia page, and a few others, and wasn't that impressed:

    "Apologetics as practiced by Josh McDowell is merely an exercise in after-the-fact rationalization of beliefs held on prior emotional grounds ... " Robert M. Price (Professor of Theology, expert in apologetics, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Price)

    Jaqueus Cousteau impresses me more as an example. I used to watch, "The undersea World of Jacques Cousteau" as a kid. Just read his Wikipedia page -- what a man! But there is nothing there to indicate he was actively religious in any particular way. He came from a Roman Catholic family, and was buried in a Roman Catholic service. It's very common for people just to go along with the religious situation they find themselves in "on the surface", then they can concentrate on more interesting things... and he did a lot of interesting things!

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    I have an interesting story regarding Billy Graham, which I think I already told a long time ago in LitNet. But rather than search for it, I'll tell it again. My grandmother was a Baptist and used to take me to Sunday school. There was in Buenos Aires, in those days, a Boxing Stadium, named Luna Park, which Billy Graham used to rent for his crusade. One day my grandmother took me there, and when Billy started with his eternal pitch about "take the lord." my grandmother wanted me to do so, regardless of the fact that I was very young and hardly understood a word of it. But she started elbowing me and I decided to please her. So I stood up and took the lord, got my certificate, and we later went home, she as happy as could be.
    Once home we got into a dispute. She somehow got me upset. So I pull out the certificate, tore it to pieces, let it fall on the floor and exited the house irritated.
    About 10 years later I came to the United States of America. All throughout my life, I had noticed my grandmother collected my toys as I evolved and didn't play any longer with them. Years later, my grandmother passed away, and my aunt was in charge of distributing what grandma left, as per her instruction. So I inherited the box of toys. Surprise. Inside the box I also found the certificate I had gotten from Billy's assistants, put together with scotch tape on the back. At that point, I had already grasped the message. Amazing story.
    God be with you.
    Last edited by cafolini; 09-30-2013 at 01:14 PM.

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