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Thread: Ayn Rand

  1. #16
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    Why would someone profess a religion if they thought the opposite?

    Take a look at the Grand Inquisitor scene from Dostoevsky's Brothers Karamazov.
    Beware of the man with just one book. -Ovid
    The man who doesn't read good books has no advantage over the man who can't read them.- Mark Twain
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  2. #17
    ancient atoms hypatia_'s Avatar
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    Uh, you seem to be confused, Toohey is a straw man of an altruist used by rand to demonize altrusim. This is precisely what Max wrote.

    And what I said as well. But it is not indicative of a "down with altruism" theme, which, from what I understand, is what Max was attempting to get across. Rand uses Toohey in an attempt to perfect the definition of altruism, that selfishness is a form of altruism if done correctly, which Roark did, and Toohey didn't.


    Moreover, it requires quite a bit of arrogance on your part to apparently be able to define Fleming's motivations. Who knew that Fleming decided to get into researching sepsis and bacterial disease while treating injured soldiers in WWI all because he just simply loved science so damn much.

    I did. His love for science was his motivation, and if all people did what they loved, the world would be a better place. That is what I get from Rand's writing, not this "down with altruism" bull****.
    Last edited by hypatia_; 05-13-2013 at 11:12 PM.
    “the sense of being which in calm hours arises, we know not how, in the soul, is not diverse from things, from space, from light, from time, from man, but one with them and proceeds obviously from the same source.... Here is the fountain of action and of thought....

  3. #18
    Registered User Darcy88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypatia_ View Post
    Uh, you seem to be confused, Toohey is a straw man of an altruist used by rand to demonize altrusim. This is precisely what Max wrote.

    And what I said as well. But it is not indicative of a "down with altruism" theme, which, from what I understand, is what Max was attempting to get across. Rand uses Toohey in an attempt to perfect the definition of altruism, that selfishness is a form of altruism if done correctly, which Roark did, and Toohey didn't.


    Moreover, it requires quite a bit of arrogance on your part to apparently be able to define Fleming's motivations. Who knew that Fleming decided to get into researching sepsis and bacterial disease while treating injured soldiers in WWI all because he just simply loved science so damn much.

    I did. His love for science was his motivation, and if all people did what they loved, the world would be a better place. That is what I get from Rand's writing, not this "down with altruism" bull****.
    More Rand on altruism:

    "If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject."

    "The social system based on and consonant with the altruist morality—with the code of self-sacrifice—is socialism, in all or any of its variants: fascism, Nazism, communism. All of them treat man as a sacrificial animal to be immolated for the benefit of the group, the tribe, the society, the state. Soviet Russia is the ultimate result, the final product, the full, consistent embodiment of the altruist morality in practice; it represents the only way that that morality can ever be practiced."

    “The man who attempts to live for others is a dependent. He is a parasite in motive and makes parasites of those he serves. The relationship produces nothing but mutual corruption. It is impossible in concept. The nearest approach to it in reality -- the man who lives to serve others -- is the slave. If physical slavery is repulsive, how much more repulsive is the concept of servility of the spirit. The conquered slave has a vestige of honor. He has the merit of having resisted and of considering his condition evil. But the man who enslaves himself voluntarily in the name of love is the basest of creatures. He degrades the dignity of man, and he degrades the conception of love. But that is the essence of altruism”

    "A great many Republicans would be scared to death to recognize that altruism is the curse of the world and that as long as we go on screaming “service” and “self-sacrifice” louder than the New Deal we will never have a chance. In any encounter with collectivists it is always the acceptance of altruism as an ideal not to be questioned that defeats us. I wrote The Fountainhead to show, in human terms, just what that ideal actually means and where we must stand if we want to win. If we can make the word “altruism” become a shameful term, which it actually is, instead of the automatic trademark of virtue which people think it to be—we will get the Tooheys out of Washington someday."

    “If you ask me to name the proudest distinction of Americans, I would choose–because it contains all the others–the fact that they were the people who created the phrase ‘to make money.’ No other language or nation had ever used these words before; men had always thought of wealth as a static quantity–to be seized, begged, inherited, shared, looted or obtained as a favor. Americans were the first to understand that wealth has to be created. The words ‘to make money’ hold the essence of human morality.
    “To practice any art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow. So do it.”

    - Kurt Vonnegut

  4. #19
    ancient atoms hypatia_'s Avatar
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    Thank you for those quotations; I was definitely not aware that she literally thought money was the essence of human morality. I have not listened to her interviews, only read her fiction. I guess throughout this thread I have been more defending my own values (inspired by Rand's writing), than I am defending Rand. Do you understand my position though, and how it differs from the "accumulation of wealth is pure morality" theme? Would you still consider me an objectivist if I said the essence of human morality is following your passion, and that is what Rand has inspired me to do?
    Last edited by hypatia_; 05-13-2013 at 11:46 PM.
    “the sense of being which in calm hours arises, we know not how, in the soul, is not diverse from things, from space, from light, from time, from man, but one with them and proceeds obviously from the same source.... Here is the fountain of action and of thought....

  5. #20
    Registered User Darcy88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hypatia_ View Post
    Thank you for those quotations; I was definitely not aware that she literally thought money was the essence of human morality. I have not listened to her interviews, only read her fiction. I guess throughout this thread I have been more defending my own values (inspired by Rand's writing), than I am defending Rand. Do you understand my position though, and how it differs from the "accumulation of wealth is pure morality" theme? Would you still consider me an objectivist if I said the essence of human morality is following your passion, and that is what Rand has inspired me to do?
    Yes, I understand where you're coming from. But the thread is about Rand. And if your passion happened to be helping people Rand would declare you an evil person. It takes a strange, essentially sick mind to think like that.
    “To practice any art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow. So do it.”

    - Kurt Vonnegut

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    Registered User mona amon's Avatar
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    And if your passion happened to be helping people Rand would declare you an evil person.
    Hmm...I read Rand a very long time back, but I'm pretty sure there was the mention of a young social worker who was genuinely interested in helping people in one of the main books. She gets only a fleeting mention, just to show us that Toohey (or his equivalent in Atlas Shrugged) perceives her as a threat and gets rid of her. What she's against is the 'sacrifice yourself for the greater good' type of altruism, preached by people who are usually more interested in sacrificing others to themselves.

    There's really nothing wrong with her preaching of rational self interest, except that her perspective is way too narrow, her voice too shrill, and she's way too simplistic and not at all as original as her fans believe. The idea of Laissez-faire capitalism based on rational self interest was there long before her, and was widely popularized by the classical economists, especially Adam Smith.
    Last edited by mona amon; 05-14-2013 at 12:47 AM.
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    At least in "The Fountainhead" Rand knew how to sell a novel, and it wasn't her philosophy that did the trick. The book was a bodice-ripper, its main reason for being so popular was the rape scene where the woman first seemed to ask for it, then enjoyed it, then topped it all off by marrying the guy's bitter enemy -- to punish him, or something. (Her personal fantasies should tell us something about her political views.) The proof is that most of the ads for the movie featured that very scene. But I suppose if your rapist was Gary Cooper, that might be more PC than if it was, say, (fill in the blank). Here's my own experience with Ayn Rand, in a way. I appeared in a movie called "Song of Russia" in 1943 as a 10-year-old playing in a children's orchestra in Russia. This movie later became a big item in the HUAC witch hunt hearings when Ayn Rand testified that the reason she knew that "Song of Russia" was Soviet propaganda was that so many Russians were depicted as "smiling." Little did I realize that I myself had been a tool of the dreaded Soviet propaganda machine when we kids in the balalaika band laughed and smiled as the choreographer ran back and forth behind the camera making faces at us to get us to laugh and smile.

  8. #23
    ancient atoms hypatia_'s Avatar
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    Jack, I don't even remember the rape scene, and I have never in the two years since I've read it heard anyone talk about it as significant. Nor does it necessarily portray anything about her political views, although I understand what you're getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by mona amon
    Hmm...I read Rand a very long time back, but I'm pretty sure there was the mention of a young social worker who was genuinely interested in helping people in one of the main books. She gets only a fleeting mention, just to show us that Toohey (or his equivalent in Atlas Shrugged) perceives her as a threat and gets rid of her. What she's against is the 'sacrifice yourself for the greater good' type of altruism, preached by people who are usually more interested in sacrificing others to themselves.
    Do you mean Katie, Peter Keating's (Howard Roark's architectural "rival") girlfriend? Here's an excerpt from sparknotes:

    Meanwhile, Katie goes to Toohey for advice. She is utterly unhappy in her job as a social worker and is beginning to hate the people she is supposed to help. Toohey tells Katie to relinquish her ego. Katie meekly agrees. Keating bitterly regrets his testimony against Roark at the Stoddard trial. He tells Katie he wants to marry her right away and that they will elope the next day. After he leaves, Katie shouts at Toohey that she is not afraid of him anymore.
    “the sense of being which in calm hours arises, we know not how, in the soul, is not diverse from things, from space, from light, from time, from man, but one with them and proceeds obviously from the same source.... Here is the fountain of action and of thought....

  9. #24
    Registered User mona amon's Avatar
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    No, no. I remember Katie quite well, now that you mention her. This character didn't have a name and probably got only one sentence of narrative description. Hope I didn't make it up or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darcy88 View Post
    Yes, I understand where you're coming from. But the thread is about Rand. And if your passion happened to be helping people Rand would declare you an evil person. It takes a strange, essentially sick mind to think like that.
    Indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    The funny thing I find is that many Christians like Ayn Rand even though she's one of the most anti-Christian thinkers of all time.

    That's simply because many professed Christians are the most anti-Christian thinkers.
    I like this one. It sort of reinforces Nietzsche's point of view: That there is only one Christian, and that would be Jesus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bookowskee View Post
    I like this one. It sort of reinforces Nietzsche's point of view: That there is only one Christian, and that would be Jesus.
    And there is only one antichrist, right? And that is Ayn Rand, right?
    ROFLMAO

  14. #29
    ancient atoms hypatia_'s Avatar
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    well i definitely think she was on to something, primarily independence and creative integrity. she just took it too far by extending it to the pursuit of wealth, which might have just been a result of the environment she grew up on.
    “the sense of being which in calm hours arises, we know not how, in the soul, is not diverse from things, from space, from light, from time, from man, but one with them and proceeds obviously from the same source.... Here is the fountain of action and of thought....

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    Quote Originally Posted by cafolini View Post
    And there is only one antichrist, right? And that is Ayn Rand, right?
    ROFLMAO
    Ummm, not quite. Since there is only one christian, the remaining self-professed christians are the anti-christs. ROFLMAO

    I'm kidding.

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