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Thread: suicides in novels

  1. #31
    Ecurb Ecurb's Avatar
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    "I have immortal longings." -- Cleopatra


    The Romans were also advocates of suicide as an honorable way to accept defeat. Of course this was partly due to the humiliations and tortures visited upon the defeated by Romans. "Save the last bullet for yourself" was a code in the American West based on the fear of being tortured if captured by Native Americans.

    "This was the noblest Roman of them all..." Those opposed to suicide might find this description faulty, since Brutus killed himself. "Farewell, good Strato. -- Caesar, now be still: I killed not thee with half so good a will."

  2. #32
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillwalker View Post
    Isn't it a case of respecting cultural differences, especially those from past cultures, rather than dismissing something you don't understand as 'disgusting and frankly terrifying.'?
    To begin to respect a culture any culture it has and will have to respect itself first. What this ritual suggests is ending one's life voluntarily or not and I have no understanding of ityou are right.
    It is nonsensical for the only reason that for a culture to subside it needs to show that it is surviving against all the odds.
    A culture however that suggest death as a cultural ritual is a culture that is on its way out. Where is the respect supposed to land? on its head? By the time this ritual is finished there is no one to be around to claim a culture and no respect to be had.
    I personally do not understand that you do not understand how desperate this ritual is and yes it makes zero sense. To want to self eliminate in this way is terrifying.

    Bushido - which amongst other things advocated honour to the death - played a major part in the code of chivalry as practised by the samurai. Ritual suicide was seen as a gentlemanly way of admitting defeat. The particular method of suicide employed (seppuku) was a way of liberating the spirit at the moment of death to erase disgrace and dishonour.
    Says who? and what disgrace? who says a spirit is liberated in this way? where is the proof in all this?
    Chivalry is in manners and speech to die in the name of suicide is not chivalry it is pure madness sorry I do not get it.
    There is no disgrace and there is no dishonour what there is made up assumptions and frightening backwards ideas to claim
    power over others.
    The fact that it has been written about doesn't mean you have to practise it yourself. And to write off those who followed this code of conduct as being 'not right' is a little simplistic don't you think?

    H
    I am sorry I fail to understand to need to eradicate oneself and calling it culture. Suicide is not a code of conduct it is a call for death which is unjustified. I feel it is corrupt and makes no sense. Simplistic is not the word I can think of worse terms to describe it. I am afraid it is never right to tell others that they have to take their lives because culture says so.
    Last edited by cacian; 04-25-2013 at 03:15 PM.
    it may never try
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  3. #33
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    In my opinion there is really nothing wrong with suicide - it's your life, if you want to end it then it should be your decision. The only problems I really see is people killing themselves and later (if they could still think) regretting it, and the fact that it will probably leave close friends and family pretty distressed.

    Also despite what your views on it are, it is also a way of protesting and is ultimately the biggest sacrifice you can make for a cause - your life.

    I can understand entirely where the Japanese concept of ritual suicide came from.
    If you believe you have done something so dishonourable that it deserves your life, then you kill yourself.
    Last edited by Volya; 04-25-2013 at 03:23 PM.

  4. #34
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    I can understand entirely where the Japanese concept of ritual suicide came from.
    If you believe you have done something so dishonourable that it deserves your life, then you kill yourself
    What about forgiveness and tolerance of each other and ourselves? does not that count? there are people also involved when someone takes their life. Does not that count too? their sorrows and hurt?
    Teaching someone to accept that they have made a mistake dishonoured or not is teaching to accept themselves and learn from it.
    Life is about changes and progress and suicide means there is no other chances which I think it is not true.
    To tell someone they have to suicide because they have dishonoured is in my views is lifeless pushes the point that there is no reason to be born at the first place. Life is a hurdle and one must learn to jump it everytime to show that we are able to push the barriers no matter how high they are . This is part of life.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    What about forgiveness and tolerance of each other and ourselves? does not that count? there are people also involved when someone takes their life. Does not that count too? their sorrows and hurt?
    Teaching someone to accept that they have made a mistake dishonoured or not is teaching to accept themselves and learn from it.
    Life is about changes and progress and suicide means there is no other chances which I think it is not true.
    To tell someone they have to suicide because they have dishonoured is in my views is lifeless pushes the point that there is no reason to be born at the first place. Life is a hurdle and one must learn to jump it everytime to show that we are able to push the barriers no matter how high they are . This is part of life.
    Yes, suicide may well hurt other people, but ultimately it is your own life thus you should be able to choose if you want to keep it. I am not saying we should make people kill themselves if they have been dishonoured, I'm saying the person in question should be able to if they want.

  6. #36
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    I'm not advocating suicide - but I'm able to accept that if suicide was once seen as a moral choice by certain cultures (as it was by the samurai up to the late 19th century) then so be it. Who am I to criticise or judge?

    They didn't commit mass suicide so your nonsensical argument that there would be no one left if it was allowed to continue shows just how much you fail to understand the concept.

    You have as much right to condemn the practice of suicide (for whatever reason) as anyone on here - but your original declaration that it should not be written about in literature because it's a 'bad thing' shows yet again how naive your thinking is.

    H

  7. #37
    Ecurb Ecurb's Avatar
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    Oregon (where I live) was the first state (indeed the first Western Government) to legalize doctor assisted suicide. Physician assisted suicide has been legal in Oregon since 1994 (although there have been a couple of court cases challenging the law). Physician-assisted suicide was still technically illegal throughout Europe back then, although it was already an accepted practice in the Netherlands. Several other states have legalized assisted suicide since then, and it has become officially legal in several European nations, as well.

    As far as suicide in literature Is concerned, death is dramatic, and suicide is dramatic. Drama is the essence of literature (drama as an art form predates the novel by many centuries). The most famous soliloquy in English letters is about whether or not to commit suicide. Suicide may be deplorable, or it may not be. But it certainly is dramatic. It’s not really debatable whether it’s acceptable in literature, because it is a central theme in Hamlet, Julius Caesar, Anthony and Cleopatra, Othello, Anna Karennina, Madame Bovary, and a great many canonical works. If we got rid of literature in which suicide is a major theme, we would have to get rid of a great many masterpieces.

  8. #38
    Artist and Bibliophile stlukesguild's Avatar
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    cacian... let's be real, here. If writers followed all of your rules (no sex, no vulgarity, no profanity, no suicides, no villains, no character abandoned, no fantasy, nothing unrealistic...) we'd be left with a body of literature that no one on earth would have the least interest in reading.
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  9. #39
    Registered User Delta40's Avatar
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    No Surrender lit-netters. In another life, Cacian likely helped enslave indigenous children, beat them across the head with her bicycle and then bred them with the British so everybody could be white and much more tasteful....
    Before sunlight can shine through a window, the blinds must be raised - American Proverb

  10. #40
    Pièce de Résistance Scheherazade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    cacian... let's be real, here. If writers followed all of your rules (no sex, no vulgarity, no profanity, no suicides, no villains, no character abandoned, no fantasy, nothing unrealistic...) we'd be left with a body of literature that no one on earth would have the least interest in reading.
    But, as God is her witness, there would be no faking in it!
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    "It is not that I am mad; it is only that my head is different from yours.”
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  11. #41
    Registered User Delta40's Avatar
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    And what would the artwork of the cover be???
    Before sunlight can shine through a window, the blinds must be raised - American Proverb

  12. #42
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    Well, I'll tell you something. If I keep seeing the beauty of the English language butchered like this, I might consider suicide myself.
    Last edited by AuntShecky; 04-25-2013 at 11:36 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volya View Post
    Why do you find the idea of ritual suicide disgusting?
    Oh, I don't know. I guess it's the way they go about it. The guy pushes his samurai sword into one side of his stomach and then slides it very slowly across to the other side. Eventually his intestines fall out.

    No doubt I need to be more postmodern and respect the diverse cultures of other people.

    What I wonder is where did they get the idea of doing something like that? Probably someone told them a story of how that would be a cool way to regain their honor.

    Yeah, and where do those Muslim terrorists get the idea that blowing themselves up in a market place where women and children are congregating is doing anyone any good? Probably someone told them a story of how that would be a really cool way to die and take others with them at the same time and regain their honor.

    And where do those Buddhists get the idea that taking a swig of gasoline and pouring the rest over their bodies and then lighting a match does any good? Probably someone told them a story of how that is the way to regain their honor and like morons they believed it.

    And what about those people who leap off cliffs or fall under a train when they mess up their relationships? Probably someone told them a story.
    Last edited by YesNo; 04-26-2013 at 12:46 AM.

  14. #44
    Registered User Delta40's Avatar
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    YesNo it's easy to be blase about other people so you can uphold your views and perhaps even allow yourself to feel superior to them. It's the same reason why I think Americans who are progun are uneducated animals, dragging their fists along the ground engaging in weekly incest...

    It's all far, far from the truth.
    Before sunlight can shine through a window, the blinds must be raised - American Proverb

  15. #45
    The Ghost of Laszlo Jamf islandclimber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stlukesguild View Post
    cacian... let's be real, here. If writers followed all of your rules (no sex, no vulgarity, no profanity, no suicides, no villains, no character abandoned, no fantasy, nothing unrealistic...) we'd be left with a body of literature that no one on earth would have the least interest in reading.
    Yes. It would be the mythical Garden of Eden discovered. Oh no. Wait. They were naked. Highly distasteful. Scratch that. Instead, a Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve wore leaves over the distasteful bits of their anatomy.

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