March / Muriel Spark Reading: The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie

[Scheherazade]

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In March, we will be reading The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie by Muriel Spark.

Please share thoughts and questions in this thread.

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[YesNo]

I didn't know what "prime" meant until I started reading this book. I wonder if anyone has had a teacher like Jean Brodie.

[qimissung]

I like the book, and I don't dislike her, but I do find her rather arrogant. That's not to say I wouldn't have looked up to her as a young, naive student, trying to figure myself out. She is obviously charismatic but unfortunately it seems to be to boost her own image of herself. I did not ever have a teacher like that, but I have worked with one. She was good, but like most people she was not always clear-sighted about her failings, and she did have favorites. And she was really good about taking credit for things, but not really doing much (or any) of the work.

I have just one word to describe Miss Jean Brodie in her prime: hubris.

[plainjane]

In the above poll I voted "Average", and in some ways I still agree with that assessment. I finished the book a few days ago, and was most thankful for the end. But I still find myself thinking about it, being truly annoyed with almost all of the characters. Surely that must be the sign of.....something. I can't really think of one character I liked and while that certainly is not necessary to enjoyment of a book, it tends to be slightly irritating. Most of them were contemptible in some manner, as qimissung mentions above the hubris of JB is striking.

Thankfully I didn't have any teachers like her. If I had I'd have feared for them at the hands of my Mother.

[TheFifthElement]

I have just one word to describe Miss Jean Brodie in her prime: hubris.

I wonder if that's what you're meant to think? My own view was more that Miss Jean Brodie was a sad, somewhat lonely character. She filled her weekends, her time and her efforts in spending time with these girls. Where were her grown up friends? Where was her family?

One thing that struck me as I was reading this for the second time was the question of who was the narrator. The only character whose mind we know, whose perspective overrides the book is Sandy. Is she a reliable narrator?

[YesNo]

I just started the third chapter. It seems she has two male admirers among her fellow teachers although the female teachers seem set against her.

[kasie]

I don't often recommend a film over a book, but do watch Maggie Smith as Miss Jean Brodie, if you can. I can almost guarantee you'll be reading the book with her accent.

[qimissung]

I wonder if that's what you're meant to think? My own view was more that Miss Jean Brodie was a sad, somewhat lonely character. She filled her weekends, her time and her efforts in spending time with these girls. Where were her grown up friends? Where was her family?

One thing that struck me as I was reading this for the second time was the question of who was the narrator. The only character whose mind we know, whose perspective overrides the book is Sandy. Is she a reliable narrator?

Your first question is extremely interesting, Fifth. What does everyone else think of Miss Brodie? I wonder, can she can be considered both overweeningly arrogant and at the same time lonely and isolated? I just did not find her a sympathetic character-not that there's anything wrong with that view-and perhaps it says more about our own world views than it does about her character.

Is that part of her life being kept purposely enigmatic? And also, are her motivations in teaching entirely noble? The fact that she pulls some girls apart and makes them "the Brodie set" doesn't seem noble as much as egotistical. I believe her reasons for choosing those girls had more to do with the fact that their parents would not question her also makes the whole thing suspect. The girls themselves are not described in very flattering terms.

Did she ever make an effort to make friends with her fellow teachers? That is never mentioned, only that they do not care for her. And what about the men? And why is it that they like her, but the women don't? I feel that while she might be lonely, she also helped create the circumstances that brought that about.

As to Sandy, yes, I think she's probably unreliable. I really enjoyed that part of the book, though, the imagination of the girls, their circumspect yet curious fantasies about her as they struggle through their innocence to figure out what adult life is really like, hoping that will be more interesting than the cotton wool experiences they are currently allowed.

[plainjane]

JB didn't want anyone to know her, for whatever reason. I don't think we are given enough by the author to pinpoint exactly why. I thought she fabricated as she went along perhaps because she'd been either isolated or bullied as a child. She chose girls for her "group" that might have been like herself as a youngster, ones either ignored by their parents, or somehow had slipped through the cracks of family. Did anyone else think that Hugh was a complete fabrication?

[qimissung]

I'm assuming the author withheld information on Miss Jean Brodie deliberately. She is a person whom we think we know, until we realize that we really know very little at all.

Actually, that thought did cross my mind. I also wondered if it had really happened, though, too. She didn't have to choose to let it alter her life to such a degree. What was her purpose in so doing? It leads me to think that she wanted to live this sort of circumscribed life. She was very manipulative and liked to exert influence, and I think she liked the idea of being so influential to this innocent, sheltered girls. I think she also liked the fact that she was in a power struggle with her peers and supervisors. She just very much liked feeling superior. Hence, the hubris, which will be her downfall.

[YesNo]

I don't think Hugh was a complete fabrication, but I don't think she had sex with any of the men mentioned in the novel even though for a while I thought she had with Lowther. This line (p 133) is what convinces me of that:

"Yes," said Sandy. "But you won't be able to pin her down on sex."

She must have been physically attractive. Even Rose's father was attracted to her.

The underlying theme of Calvinism, Catholicism and Fascism and the ability to influence others without being around them is what I find most interesting. Rose seemed most free of all of that.

Although I found Brodie's politics suspect, I think I turned against her as a character at the same time Sandy did when she asked about Joyce Emily:

"Did she go to fight for Franco?" said Sandy.

After hearing that and understanding what happened to Joyce Emily, I think Brodie got what she deserved and Sandy's self-imprisonment in that nunnery was a suitable punishment for her affair with Lloyd. Lloyd was a dreamer imprisoned by his thoughts of Brodie, but what made him have those thoughts? He was nothing like Rose who was protected from Brodie's "insight" by her "instinct".

[qimissung]

Very insightful, YesNo. I, too, was disturbed by what happened to Joyce Emily and how it came about. She could have so easily included the girl, who obviously longed for it, but it was her pleasure to exclude her, yet at the same time influence her for her (JB) own pleasure. I'd been wondering about the significance of Sandy becoming a nun, and the way she always held onto the bars. Thank you for that insight.

[YesNo]

I agree, qimissung, that Brodie treated Joyce Emily rudely by excluding her, but suggesting that the girl join that war was unbelievable.

I don't understand why Sandy became a Catholic nun, but I read in the afterward that Muriel Spark herself converted to Catholicism. According to Hal Hagar who wrote that afterward,

It seems clear that Spark drew on her new faith's creed and practice in devising her approach to longer fiction and her treatment of the themes she thought important.

I have no clue what that means even though it is supposed to be "clear".

[Scheherazade]

While reading the book, I did wonder if it was, at least in parts, autobiographical. Is it possible that Spark based the story on a teacher she used to know?

It was my understanding that Miss Jean Brodie had no one left in life, despiting coming from a fairly middle-class background, which also explains her choice of teaching as a career, I believe.

I also feel that Hugh was real but JB sounded like she was taking some liberties and changing/adapting the stories according to her mood and needs. She liked making her points strongly and did not mind taking some artistic license every now and then.

I think this is a well-told story but I am still wondering what the message behind all is. JB claims to have dedicated her life to "her girls" and she seems to be in need of dedicating her life to a cause all the time. Her admiration of Mussolini's Italy, taking care of Mr L and, also, the girls. She is no doubt lonely - even though she'd never admit.

I thought it ironic that while she tries to shape her girls, she is not as successful as she hopes to be; Sandy, not Rose, become Llyod's lover but Joyce Emily, a girl who is not even one of "her set", takes her advice (if that is what it was) to her heart and goes to Spain. Very ironic.

Is it Spark's agenda to make us realise that we do not have the kind of influence on people around us and that sometimes our actions affect others in ways we do not expect?

Re. narrator. I did not feel that there was a specific narrator but an omniscient one so I don't think any of the characters were actually retelling their memories.

[aliengirl]

I almost forgot that we were going to read Muriel Spark in March. Glad I checked a few days ago.

Initially I was curious about the narrator but after finishing it seems that the narrative style is rather simple one. It is the omniscient third person narrator. The plot is also quite simple but it is the array of intriguing characters that kept my interest alive. Never knew a teacher like Jean B and I'm glad for that. I would have been fed up soon. It was really nice of the 'Brodie-set' to visit her even after they left her class. But then JB was an attractive woman. I think she was not just physically attractive. She created an atmosphere of mystery and superiority around her which both attracted and repelled people. I don't understand what sort of moral code (for the lack of a better word) caused her to have an affair with Lowther but not with Lloyd.

I agree that she is a lonely woman, with no family or grown up friends. To me even Hugh seems invented. She keeps adding layers to his characters. She is pretty delusional about her power over her own 'set' but as Scher says ironically it works on poor Joyce Emily. For me that's a crucial point in the narrative. Before the death of Joyce Emily, JB appears like a woman of different morals and interests. But after knowing that she actually influenced the poor girl, I thought JB was well-rewarded.

I was wondering about why Sandy became a nun...because she betrayed her teacher. But your explanations seems better YesNo. Thank you.

Does any one else think that among her chosen pupils Sandy has something in common with Jean B? Jean B refuses to marry Lowther and doesn't have an affair with Lloyd even though she loves to listen how much Lloyd's portraits resemble her. May be it was her way to punish herself. Similarly Sandy chose to be a nun to punish herself. We can site some reasons for Sandy's choice but why does JB punish herself? The author reveals too little to make a guess.