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Thread: Aujourd’hui, maman est morte

  1. #31
    Did you say anything about me? I can't follow your discussion .. but I'm saying you .. that most people I know are loving someone who is abusing them or who abused them in the past ) really ..

  2. #32
    Ecurb Ecurb's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Ill grant that my cliches aren't as evocative as Paul's. However, there's no "demonstrable reason" to conclude that love (ipso facto) causes harm. Behaviors, sometimes associated with love, cause the harm. Love can cause pain -- but that's different.


    What we see as harmful and beneficial is culturally constituted. Since Christian ideals have influenced our values, we see love as admirable and hatred or bitterness as pernicious. These values become self-fulfilling prophecies. Just as those who lie, cheat, steal or murder are harmed by their own behaviors, so are those who feel bitterness or hatred. Our need to justify these normally unacceptable feelings leads us to justify other nominally unacceptable feelings and behaviors. On the other hand, charitable feelings and behaviors lead to social and psychological rewards, that need no rationalization.

    Of course there are complicated, gray areas. However, in general, socially and culturally accepted behaviors are rewarded; behaviors in conflict with accepted norms lead to cognitive dissonance and emotional trauma. What constitutes duty? I don't know. But I do know that we should respect its call, even if that call is traumatic for us.

  3. #33
    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecurb View Post
    Ill grant that my cliches aren't as evocative as Paul's. However, there's no "demonstrable reason" to conclude that love (ipso facto) causes harm. Behaviors, sometimes associated with love, cause the harm. Love can cause pain -- but that's different.
    This is pretty much a thinly veiled "no true scotsman" argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecurb View Post
    What we see as harmful and beneficial is culturally constituted. Since Christian ideals have influenced our values, we see love as admirable and hatred or bitterness as pernicious. These values become self-fulfilling prophecies. Just as those who lie, cheat, steal or murder are harmed by their own behaviors, so are those who feel bitterness or hatred. Our need to justify these normally unacceptable feelings leads us to justify other nominally unacceptable feelings and behaviors. On the other hand, charitable feelings and behaviors lead to social and psychological rewards, that need no rationalization.
    Yet, as I have repeatedly said, charitable feelings and behaviours do not necessarily bring rewards. Moreover, criticizing others, and attempting to impose one's values on them, based on misguided romantic notions completely divorced from the lived experience is far more pernicious than any feelings of dislike for someone who has been horrible to you.

    These views also require being blissfully unaware of what we know about modern psychology and a complete disregard for the subtleties of lived experiences. To say one should love their abuser is not only misguided, it's insulting to the abused.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecurb View Post
    Of course there are complicated, gray areas. However, in general, socially and culturally accepted behaviors are rewarded; behaviors in conflict with accepted norms lead to cognitive dissonance and emotional trauma. What constitutes duty? I don't know. But I do know that we should respect its call, even if that call is traumatic for us.
    And now the social duty to love you admit could be traumatic, but yet somehow it is acceptable for people to impose trauma on others. How do you know we should respect that call? Why? Because you say so?

    Your entire view amounts to little more than an arbitrary moral judgment.
    "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
    - Margaret Atwood

  4. #34
    Clinging to Douvres rocks Gilliatt Gurgle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos;1199267.

    ...Do not post any antagonisms or cheap reproaches; i am only interested in the views of people who dealt with similar to some degree relationships.

    I guess there will be no replies though, which i will decipher in a positive way.
    You apparently struck a chord given the number of replies Kyriakos.
    I lost both of my parents while relatively young, before reaching the age of 30, although my relationship with them was quite different than yours, so I won't go there.
    However, I can attest to the finality of death as my brother and sisters witnessed the last breath, so I strongly urge you to make that final call as difficult as it may be.

    Regards.
    "Mongo only pawn in game of life" - Mongo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKRma7PDW10

  5. #35
    Ecurb Ecurb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanPip View Post
    This is pretty much a thinly veiled "no true scotsman" argument.



    Yet, as I have repeatedly said, charitable feelings and behaviours do not necessarily bring rewards. Moreover, criticizing others, and attempting to impose one's values on them, based on misguided romantic notions completely divorced from the lived experience is far more pernicious than any feelings of dislike for someone who has been horrible to you.

    These views also require being blissfully unaware of what we know about modern psychology and a complete disregard for the subtleties of lived experiences. To say one should love their abuser is not only misguided, it's insulting to the abused.



    And now the social duty to love you admit could be traumatic, but yet somehow it is acceptable for people to impose trauma on others. How do you know we should respect that call? Why? Because you say so?

    Your entire view amounts to little more than an arbitrary moral judgment.

    And your "argument" (if we can dignify it with that word) is as mean spirited as it is ill expressed. No, as anyone familiar with Western thought would know, respect for one's parent is not due "because I said so" However, it is a fundamental tenet of traditional morality. You are free to poo poo tradition, but not to accuse me of inventing it.


    Charitable feelings may or may not "bring rewards" (to borrow your trite phrase), but there are plenty of people (all Christians, for example) who think they do. I'll grant your ignorance about charity, however.

  6. #36
    Dance Magic Dance OrphanPip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ecurb View Post
    And your "argument" (if we can dignify it with that word) is as mean spirited as it is ill expressed. No, as anyone familiar with Western thought would know, respect for one's parent is not due "because I said so" However, it is a fundamental tenet of traditional morality. You are free to poo poo tradition, but not to accuse me of inventing it.
    Yes, it's quite mean-spirited of me to challenge the supposition that love is a magical panacea that can overcome all hardships, and that anyone who does not feel love for a parent, for whatever reason that may be, must immediately be self-absorbed and morally deficient. Your appeal to traditional morality is superficial anyway. Our society also grants that parents can be negligent and that parental rights are not supreme, they come with a duty to the child. If the child has a duty to the parent why would the child be expected to fulfill such a duty when the parent has already reneged on their part?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ecurb View Post
    Charitable feelings may or may not "bring rewards" (to borrow your trite phrase), but there are plenty of people (all Christians, for example) who think they do. I'll grant your ignorance about charity, however.
    My phrase is trite? You're the one who said charity begets "social and psychological rewards", I borrowed the phrase from you. Furthermore, I am challenging the gross generalizations you have made, not whether charity or love can be good for people, but rather the ridiculous notion that it is always good. Or even worse, the sanctimonious didactic pronouncements made that come loaded with the view that people who do not conform to this (without even getting into the issue of whether or not it is possible to will oneself into loving another) are morally defective. If I am mean-spirited for arguing this point, I don't know what that makes the person who judges the victim of abuse for their moral deficiency in not loving their abuser enough.

    You sidestep the issue of connecting love as a concept to action, but if love is not action then it is an involuntary emotional state. If we want to say love is voluntary, and then we also want to say that it is not connected to action, then love is not very meaningful at all. What good is willing good things for others if you do nothing to contribute to the good of others? Something Catholic theology would agree with.

    Edit: Just to reiterate, all I have argued for here is perspective on the idea that loving your parents is a moral duty. Loving and forgiving can very well be good most of the time, yet this is not universally true. What particularly upsets me is this idea that there is something lacking in someone who fails to live up to this duty, especially when that person is a victim of abuse. It is a rhetoric of shaming that I'm all too familiar with from those deploying the authority of "traditional morality" to justify criticizing my sexuality. Not only is it the same kind of language, it parallels the same kind of mindset that assume someone who cannot love, or cannot will to love, does so out of a lack of good Christian will rather than something that is so closely entwined with an involuntary emotional reaction. On what ethical grounds can one justify shaming someone (as Liza's tirade of accusing someone of being selfish because their subjectivity does not conform to what they think is proper) for the way they feel, especially under circumstances where stigmatizing someone into forcing a proper relationship to their parent can lead to further trauma in its own right.

    If anything is uncharitable it has been this sustained self-righteousness running through these assumptions about how people should (or even must) feel towards their parents.
    Last edited by OrphanPip; 01-26-2013 at 03:53 AM.
    "If the national mental illness of the United States is megalomania, that of Canada is paranoid schizophrenia."
    - Margaret Atwood

  7. #37
    Caddy smells like trees caddy_caddy's Avatar
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    I agree with Orphanpip. loving your abuser is hypocrisy . No one has right to interfere in your personal feelings. Love should arise naturally . You could Not love anyone out of duty. The aim of morality is not to change your personal feelings but to control your behaviour. I possess my feelings but have no right to hurt others or do something bad on the basis of my feelings. That's why I said thinking in terms of moral duty could resolve this conflict with our parents yet we remain true to our selves.

  8. #38
    Ecurb Ecurb's Avatar
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    I cannot agree that love must be either an involuntary emotional state or an action. That dichotomy appears to be ignorant of the concept of agape, which, in Christian thought, is neither. Instead, it is a willful emotion that must be cultivated and practiced. That's one reason love engenders love -- by practicing being loving we not only make ourselves more "deserving" of being loved, but also more adept at both feeling the emotion and behaving in a loving way. The notion that we cannot control how we "feel" is, I think, incorrect. It is difficult to control our feelings, but not impossible. In the Christian worldview, one changes the way one feels by becoming a better person (with God's help).

    That being said, I have no desire to "shame" anyone, to contemn anyone, or to demand anything of anyone. Instead, I am simply suggesting that we all behave as charitably as we are able. Obviously, none of us is ideally charitable, and some circumstances are more difficult than others.
    Last edited by Ecurb; 01-26-2013 at 11:29 AM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilliatt Gurgle View Post
    However, I can attest to the finality of death as my brother and sisters witnessed the last breath, so I strongly urge you to make that final call as difficult as it may be.

    Regards.

    I have to agree here. I lost my Dad a year and a half ago, I loved him utterly but saw him infrequently for various reasons. So when he died suddenly I had no chance to say goodbye, it took me many months just to accept that he had gone at all let alone deal with the fact , and even now I am struck to my core sometimes with the finality of it all - I will never see him again , ever. It is impossible to comprehend how that feels until it is too late.

  10. #40
    we should forgive and love people when they are alive .. not only the last moments before they die.. this is not love ..this is beacause we feel guilty .. to try to love your father before he die.. is not love .. you don't do it for him .. but for yourself .. this IS SELFISH .. WE SHOULD FORGIVE PEOPLE .. FORGIVENESS

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