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Thread: Is it a belief?

  1. #1

    Is it a belief?

    I often hear Christians say "I know God exists." I even more often hear them say "I have faith in God," meaning they believe that God exists. Christians call themselves "believers" and "men of faith." But every Christian I know and have conversed at length with on religion has said "I know God exists." They often specify "I don't believe, I know He exists."

  2. #2
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    God is a generic word for a higher being. Faith is to think there is another life somewhere else.
    To assume it is a HE is shorsighted. To assume a higher being is unique and rules by himself is dictatorship of another kind.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

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    Of course it is: belief does not constitute knowledge in any way.

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    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Belief is blind faith, something that does not hinge on any logical conclusion

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juanluna View Post
    I often hear Christians say "I know God exists." I even more often hear them say "I have faith in God," meaning they believe that God exists. Christians call themselves "believers" and "men of faith." But every Christian I know and have conversed at length with on religion has said "I know God exists." They often specify "I don't believe, I know He exists."
    "I have faith in God" doesn't mean what you think it means. Having faith in God constitutes belief in God's judgements.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phocion View Post
    Of course it is: belief does not constitute knowledge in any way.
    belief constitues spiritual knowledge. a kind of knowledge that doesn't rely on reason of any kind.

  6. #6
    To me "I know God exists" means roughly the same as "I don't want to explore the foundations of my belief" or "I'm not willing to learn about other people's views". It's a mantra that by default rejects all opposing arguments.
    De omnibus dubitandum.

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    To say that God does not exist is the same as saying pastrami does not exist. I prefer pepperoni. But why would an atheist find a need to talk about talk that doesn't exist?
    ROFLMAO

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    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Monkey View Post
    To me "I know God exists" means roughly the same as "I don't want to explore the foundations of my belief" or "I'm not willing to learn about other people's views". It's a mantra that by default rejects all opposing arguments.
    How do you explain late conversions and conversions from one religion to another? How do you explain scientists with faith? One thing I have noticed is the assumption that people who have some faith are stupid for their belief. In fact they have experienced what others can't access- even people of the same faith, and come to their own conclusions. Others rely on their culture and family to guide them. That's not an illogical thing to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    How do you explain late conversions and conversions from one religion to another? How do you explain scientists with faith? One thing I have noticed is the assumption that people who have some faith are stupid for their belief. In fact they have experienced what others can't access- even people of the same faith, and come to their own conclusions. Others rely on their culture and family to guide them. That's not an illogical thing to do.
    One good way of putting it. I agree. Still it could be translated to some form of thousands of mantras apart from the most popular ones.

    For exaple Wooouuu, Seeeeee, Peeeeee, Etceteraaaaa.
    Last edited by cafolini; 01-06-2013 at 03:14 PM.

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    A 40 Bag To Freedom E.A Rumfield's Avatar
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    Everyone has their own bs reason for living. Some people come up with quite beautiful excuses, other more boring people just use the God bs.
    Her hair was like a flowing cascade and her breasts were real awesome also.
    My ***** Better Have My Money by Fly Guy
    My ***** better have my money.
    Through rain, sleet, or snow,
    my ho better have my money.
    Not half, not some, but all my cash.
    Because if she don't, I'll put my foot dead in her ***.

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    Caddy smells like trees caddy_caddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulfinch View Post
    belief constitues spiritual knowledge. a kind of knowledge that doesn't rely on reason of any kind.
    I liked your term " the spiritual knowledge " but unfortunately because we live in a materialistic world most do not take it seriously.
    You know , everyday when taking the bus I meet Syrian refugee. I ask myself how don't they collapse ? They lost everything behind them ; some have one plastic bag others don't have except their clothes; they have no future ; most of them don't know where to go, yet you feel they are strong people and you admire them. You ask yourself from where do they get this strength?
    My neighbor is Syrain; some of her relatives come to her . When I ask them how are u doing ? They answer " alhamdullillah :Thanks to God !!!
    It's very strange to thank God even in that horrible situation!!
    That's the difference between a believer and a non-believer.
    They are not angry of God; they don't blame Him for their suffering ; they don't accuse him of being evil and allowing evil.
    Never, never , never.
    That's very astonishing!!
    On the contrary they get more attached to God and their faith go stronger.
    you cannot understand this unless u see that strength in their souls; how they are able to cope with their situation and never surrender. I feel ashamed of myself when I'm depressed and they are not.
    The strength they feel by their bond with God is for them the evidence for his existence.
    Are they stupid because they do so ? Is it really necessary to argue with those people and ask them about an empirical evidence for what they think?
    What does matter if it's an illusion or reality ?
    It's their only way of survival , so let it be; Wether it's a fancy , a lie ; let it be.
    It's sth very subjective and it 's not neccessary to objectify it to prove we are rational and not idiot.
    I always think that God be "exists" for those who want Him to exist. If u asK Him to be ( exist)He will answer you and be( exist)for you.
    The existence / Being is sth subjective not objective. You want God to exist to believe in Him.
    I think it's the other way : Believe in God and He will be for you.
    Last edited by caddy_caddy; 01-07-2013 at 05:56 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    How do you explain late conversions and conversions from one religion to another? How do you explain scientists with faith? One thing I have noticed is the assumption that people who have some faith are stupid for their belief. In fact they have experienced what others can't access- even people of the same faith, and come to their own conclusions. Others rely on their culture and family to guide them. That's not an illogical thing to do.
    The people who convert from one mode of belief to another obviously see that something in their previous mode of belief was lacking, do they not?

    Most people who use the phrase "I know God exists" use it as a rhetoric phrase, since often such rhetoric statements are a part of their sociocultural environment and it's meant to strengthen the cohesion of the community in question, among other things. At least that's my humble understanding of most religious communities. I don't claim that people who use the phrase are stupid, but rather that most of them never even question the meaning of the statement due to it's rhetoric nature or they simply have limited point of reference.

    As I said before, the phrase "I know God exists" by default rejects all opposing arguments, which makes it a truly unphilosophical and arrogant statement. Believing in god's existence is thoroughly acceptable choice, but to say that one knows that god exists is not something that falls under Socrates' definition of wisdom.
    Last edited by Freudian Monkey; 01-15-2013 at 03:33 AM.
    De omnibus dubitandum.

  13. #13
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    The people who convert from one mode of belief to another obviously see that something in their previous mode of belief was lacking, do they not?

    That was my point.

    Most people who use the phrase "I know God exists" use it as a rhetoric phrase

    I'm sorry, but neither I nor you know most people. The best we can say is in my experience.

    but rather that most of them never even question the meaning of the statement due to it's rhetoric nature or they simply have limited point of reference.

    I think we can agree that we've met people who are like this, but most? I don't think people are generally illogical. There are reasons for their belief - culture, experiences, examples of others, family. My point is that there are too many peope who hold a belief in God for them to be dismissed and labelled as being subject to inferior though/ thinking.

    "I know God exists" by default rejects all opposing arguments

    By the time they have got to that statement, one would hope that a person has considered it in all its implications, and I'm sure many do. As I said, there are people who would or could not.

    By the way - I missed your post, hence my late reply.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    The people who convert from one mode of belief to another obviously see that something in their previous mode of belief was lacking, do they not?

    That was my point.
    Wouldn't an experience like this make a person more conscious of the fact that his/her faith may not be the only absolute truth and maybe a little cautious for using phrases like "I know so-and-so exists"?

    Most people who use the phrase "I know God exists" use it as a rhetoric phrase

    I'm sorry, but neither I nor you know most people. The best we can say is in my experience.
    Granted, we're all trapped in our little hermeneutic sandboxes. But the point I'm making still stands. The phrase is often used as nothing more than a rhetoric statement without taking into account it's philosophical implications.

    but rather that most of them never even question the meaning of the statement due to it's rhetoric nature or they simply have limited point of reference.

    I think we can agree that we've met people who are like this, but most? I don't think people are generally illogical. There are reasons for their belief - culture, experiences, examples of others, family. My point is that there are too many peope who hold a belief in God for them to be dismissed and labelled as being subject to inferior though/ thinking.

    "I know God exists" by default rejects all opposing arguments

    By the time they have got to that statement, one would hope that a person has considered it in all its implications, and I'm sure many do. As I said, there are people who would or could not.

    By the way - I missed your post, hence my late reply.
    Unfortunately I don't share your optimistic view of people as thoroughly intelligent beings that are highly conscious of all the factors that affect their behavior. Again I've never said that religious people are inferior, at most I imply that they have limited point of reference to the rhetoric statement in question. It's similar to implying that Albert Einstein had limited point of reference to New Guinean initiation rites, but this doesn't make him an idiot savant, does it? In highly cohesive communities where everyone "knows" that god exists, this phrase easily becomes an inductive truism that even highly intelligent members of the community rarely question. We all have limited points of reference to many topics.
    Last edited by Freudian Monkey; 01-18-2013 at 05:47 AM.
    De omnibus dubitandum.

  15. #15
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freudian Monkey View Post
    Wouldn't an experience like this make a person more conscious of the fact that his/her faith may not be the only absolute truth and maybe a little cautious for using phrases like "I know so-and-so exists"?

    .
    Yes, so there are people - believers - who, whilst having committed to the religion are generally tolerant and also better aware of other religious ideas.

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