The right to bear arms

[miyako73]

Okay, I want to add something to the conversation. As far as school shooting is concerned, the reduction of services to take care of the mentally ill is the problem first before the easy access to guns. I think it's time America has to deal with mental illness seriously. Wherever you go here in California, you will see mentally ill people abandoned, hurt, bullied, forgotten. Of course, they will think of something to get back at the society that makes their already hellish life an inferno. Killing children is one of the things that make a society stop and listen. Unless we tackle mental illness seriously, school shootings will continue to shock us.

[LitNetIsGreat]

I've always thought that allowing psychos easy access to guns was a bad idea, but what do I know?

I could never understand the US obsession with guns in general. I know it's a cultural thing but still I find it bizarre.

...

I've tried, unsuccessfully, to block out learning details of the shooting because it's too disturbing. Some of the things I have heard people talking about has made me sick.

[Delta40]

Okay I want to add something to the conversation. As far as school shooting is concerned, the reduction of services to take care of the mentally ill is the problem first before the easy access to guns. I think it's time America has to deal with mental illness seriously. Wherever you go here in California, you will see mentally ill people abandoned, hurt, bullied, forgotten. Of course, they will think of something to get back at the society that makes their already hellish life an inferno. Killing children is one of the things that make a society stop and listen. Unless we tackle mental illness seriously, school shootings will continue to shock us.

Is that the confirmed motive of Adam Lanzo? Was he a victim of the mental health system? What are your proposals for tackling mental health seriously?

[qimissung]

I suppose the mere fact that arming teachers is Texas's first publically available idea speaks volumes. And believe me, THAT is exactly how they think in the main.

Yes, it does speak volumes, but who are "they" Tony? Most of the people I'm acquainted with would disagree with Gov. Perry. Possibly most citizens think it's a great idea, but honestly people are not running around, frothing at the mouth here, truly.

Okay, I want to add something to the conversation. As far as school shooting is concerned, the reduction of services to take care of the mentally ill is the problem first before the easy access to guns. I think it's time America has to deal with mental illness seriously. Wherever you go here in California, you will see mentally ill people abandoned, hurt, bullied, forgotten. Of course, they will think of something to get back at the society that makes their already hellish life an inferno. Killing children is one of the things that make a society stop and listen. Unless we tackle mental illness seriously, school shootings will continue to shock us.

I agree, Miyako.

[Delta40]

I believe you Qimi. I read the article and while its almost compelling, it's a knee jerk response. People want a quick fix powerful answer in the wake of such tragedy. Negotiating a longer term solution, which takes time and doesn't always yield visible results can feel less satisfactory but I believe gun control is the best place to start.

[miyako73]

I haven't heard of school shootings in Sweden Norway, Denmark. They must have good mental health systems that have long-term care services for every patient. Their services must be centered on a patient having a comfortable life he can lead openly.

School shootings are rampant in China, Russia, and USA. We should check the mental health services in these countries. In america the services are short-term and plagued with policy studies and paper works. The system wants every patient to be independent as soon as possible to minimize expenses. mental illness is a long-term disease that needs long-term hands-on not paper solutions.

[OrphanPip]

Let me introduce you to the entire population of the United Kingdom. Giving any twat from the public a weapon that can kill a man in a split second is absolutely terrifying. I have the right not to live in an area where my neighbour can kill me if they've had a bad day.

Perhaps you should be nicer to your neighbour if you fear they might chose to murder you on a bad day. I think reasonably licensed people should have a right to certain weapons for their own defence, and for sport. I grew up in a home with guns, responsible and well regulated gun ownership is an acceptable risk. I don't feel the need to own a gun, but I understand why others do.

I don't care about holding off the state, that's a silly invention of the modern conservative movement in the US. However, the right to protect oneself is fundamental, and a reasonable debate should concentrate on the reasonable boundaries of that right.

I haven't heard of school shootings in Sweden Norway, Denmark. They must have good mental health systems that have long-term care services for every patient. Their services must be centered on a patient having a comfortable life he can lead openly.

School shootings are rampant in China, Russia, and USA. We should check the mental health services in these countries. In america the services are short-term and plagued with policy studies and paper works. The system wants every patient to be independent as soon as possible to minimize expenses. mental illness is a long-term disease that needs long-term hands-on not paper solutions.

Well first of all, the combined population of all of Scandinavia is less than that of California alone. As to mass shootings, perhaps you missed the Breivik shooting that happened last year, where 77 children were shot.

Moreover, school stabbings seem to be the norm in china, guns are not available to the public there.

[qimissung]

I believe you Qimi. I read the article and while its almost compelling, it's a knee jerk response. People want a quick fix powerful answer in the wake of such tragedy. Negotiating a longer term solution, which takes time and doesn't always yield visible results can feel less satisfactory but I believe gun control is the best place to start.

Thanks, Delta. Actually "gun control," whatever that means, is the quick, powerful fix I think a lot of people think will work. You notice that I cleverly did not say that a lot of people want it. Dealing with our poor mental health safety net would be part of a many-pronged longer term solution, that might include banning assault weapons. The country already has "gun control" laws. One thing that might not be well-regulated are assault weapons. Apparently there is not even a clear-cut definition of what they are. And frankly, why does anyone need one? That is my question. I believe the answer is "no one."

[miyako73]

I don't know if the Breivik case can be considered a school shooting that primarily victimizes helpless children. I'm not so much into guns as the mode of killing but I'm interested anthropologically why killing children in school is rampant in China and US, for example, and the perpetrators are usually mentally ill. There must be an underlying reason. I wonder if this can be explained using evolutionary sociology--there are cases of adult primates (non-human) killing baby primates.

One more thing: most private psychiatrists here in the US only accept cash. Even if you have a health insurance, they won't see you. Just imagine that.

[Volya]

And if we are trying to use these events as the reason for change in law, surely we must look at the Bath School massacre, the deadliest school massacre in the US. The killer did not use guns, he used bombs. Bombs are very easy to make at home (all it takes is a google search to find out how), do you suggest we ban the sale of all products that can be used to make them?

What is sad is just how predictable all the arguments against any form of gun control are... as if the individuals lack any ability to think for themselves, but only repeat the NRA handbook: "Guns don't kill people..." "More people are killed by cars..." Yes, a bomb was used in the deadliest school massacre in the US. How many total deaths from bombs in US schools have their been vs total deaths from guns? How many kids have been killed each year from guns? I personally know of 4 of my own former students killed by guns. And once again... the products used in the creation of a bomb... and the automobile... do they perhaps have a practical purpose beyond killing? How about guns?

For a start, I've never even been on the bloody NRA website. Right now, bombs have killed less people. If you stop these killers accessing guns, they'll use bombs instead. Which will result in more death, don't you agree? Outright banning guns will do nothing but make the situation worse. What is needed is better checks on WHO can buy a gun, research to try and work out why these killers snap, and (in my opinion) a change in attitude towards childrens upbringing.

[OrphanPip]

I don't know if the Breivik case can be considered a school shooting that primarily victimizes helpless children. I'm not so much into guns as the mode of killing but I'm interested anthropologically why killing children in school is rampant in China and US, for example, and the perpetrators are usually mentally ill. There must be an underlying reason. I wonder if this can be explained using evolutionary sociology--there are cases of adult primates killing baby primates.

I think you use "rampant" rather loosely. Most school shootings are perpetrated by students. There have been 11 school shootings in canada, and 8 of them were perpetrated by students, 3 of which were probably gang related. And the 3 that did not involve students occurred at post-secondary institutions.

In the US from 2000 to 2010 there were 17 school shootings. 8 involved student shooters, 4 involved university students, 1 was unidentified, 4 involved attacks on staff. In the US, Adam Lanza is the first adult to attack school children at school since 1992.

Edit: I made an error, there was also the Amish shooting in 2008 as well. So, in the past 21 years, there have been 3 cases of adults shooting school children.

[Delta40]

It's a good point you make Miyako. I don't pay anything for outpatient services here. I see a psychiatrist once a month and a psychologist everyweek. Their offices are right next door to each other. It's all done through the medicare health care system for which I pay a tax levy on. I can choose private services if I wish and this is a great option for those people you mentioned.

[miyako73]

You have to forgive me, orphanpip. I'm not data-conscious as far as dates, places, and events are concerned. I look at a social problem as a general hypothesis. Social scientists should work around it to produce meaningful data and facts.

Instead of focusing much on guns why not on the killing and why it's the school that becomes the place of tragedy.

[Sancho]

Concerning the pistol-packing state of Texas, I've got to say that some of the kindest, gentlest, most open-minded people I've ever met were from Texas. And, bar none, the friendliest place I've ever lived was West Texas (San Angelo then later Lubbock). But then, as with any other place, they have some douche bags too, Rick Perry for instance. So, if you'd prefer not to think poorly of Texans and their governor, I'd encourage you to quit thinking about Dubya and his understudy and to think of Ann Richards instead. She had bigger balls than either of those other two yahoos anyway. Besides, the Bushes aren't from Texas anyway; they're from back east.

All that said, there seems to have been a shift in the general attitude in Texas since I lived there. As a group, they've swung to the right of their Dust-Bowl Democrat roots. They've also gotten closer to Jesus. And the pickup trucks have gotten bigger. This is all just my perception, and I'm thinly basing it on a trip I took to Dallas last year for a friend's wedding. My wife wanted a new pair of cowboy boots (there's nothing better in the world for squishing a cockroach in the corner than a pair of pointy-toed Tony Lamas), so we stopped at a Cavender's Western Wear store. I was not prepared for all the Jesus paraphernalia they were selling. Good lord! I'd remembered boot stores (Cavender's, Sheplers, Boot City) as being places to buy stuff like Wranglers, Stetsons, pearl-button shirts, dinner plate-sized belt buckles, and of course boots. But this place sold mainly crosses. Their favorite design for a T-shirt was of a cowboy and his horse genuflecting to a cross. It kinda gave me the creeps.

[BienvenuJDC]

There are more alcohol related violence and deaths than gun related deaths. I've never heard of anyone wanting to ban alcohol or have stricter alcohol control measures.

Why is that?