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Thread: Is man’s real –self manifest when laid bare fully?

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    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    Is man’s real –self manifest when laid bare fully?

    Are we phonies over our dress and true when lay bare our outers? In fact we behave inanely under the sway of civilization. Under our garments we present ourselves truly and candidly. Our civilization however stops us from doing what we subconsciously want to do.
    Why we pretend socially, intellectually, culturally, religiously and in every respect. Are we simply programmed, computerized beings? Calibrated by certain social architects we dance to the tune of their flute? From the while we are born to the instant we will depart we are under the social or ethical dos and don’ts and man is fully fettered by all kinds of mores, manners, expectations and the like and his freedom in reality is always at bay.
    Let us discuss this serious issue open mindedly without any ideological sways

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

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    In the fog Charles Darnay's Avatar
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    Look up - if you are not already familiar with - the Social Contract theorists: primarily Hobbes, Locke, and Rousseau. Hobbes, for example, posits that "in a state of nature" - that is, man without the burden of civilization - man is warlike and savage, and free. We take what we want, and live for the pleasures of life. But it is not a sustainable model of life, so we need society to constrain us so that we can live with others who want nothing more than to destroy us and take our stuff.

    Locke has a more benign view of humanity, but he too believed that only by coming together under a set of agreed upon laws can truly prosper and gain "life, liberty, property."

    Of course, these are theoretical models. Your assertion that we are all stopped somehow by civilization is a bit extreme. Remove all sense of law and order and you will find that people are not so quick to take off their clothes and join together in a massive orgy: this is not programming, this is nature.
    I wrote a poem on a leaf and it blew away...

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    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Humm the study of humanity what better to start then with yourself.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

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    Caddy smells like trees caddy_caddy's Avatar
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    you are a true man when you lay bare your soul not your body.
    Do u have sth against clothes my friend ???
    I think clothes is a good invention. Even If I have the chance to lay bare I'll prefer wearing clothes.
    It's a lovely thing to be able to change colors and styles, otherwise you'll get bored of yourself .
    Last edited by caddy_caddy; 12-25-2012 at 07:49 AM.

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    Original Poster Buh4Bee's Avatar
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    I'll bare my soul any time, anyway it's much more beautiful than my body (although for almost 40- my BF said I could still work if I would actually take the time. F- that!)

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    Baring both soul and body one can fully express and of course the body is the abode in which the could resides and the temple, the body cannot be ignored to reserve space for the soul. Why we are not in fact baring our bodies? In fact it is all our conditioned minds or the taboos we are living by.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    Are we phonies over our dress and true when lay bare our outers? In fact we behave inanely under the sway of civilization. Under our garments we present ourselves truly and candidly. Our civilization however stops us from doing what we subconsciously want to do.
    Why we pretend socially, intellectually, culturally, religiously and in every respect. Are we simply programmed, computerized beings? Calibrated by certain social architects we dance to the tune of their flute? From the while we are born to the instant we will depart we are under the social or ethical dos and don’ts and man is fully fettered by all kinds of mores, manners, expectations and the like and his freedom in reality is always at bay.
    Let us discuss this serious issue open mindedly without any ideological sways
    Is it another version of public nudity? Thanks for laughter. Are you going to bring Freud or Jung?
    Coincidently, I was inspired to make a post about Freud and Jung on one’s website. I can't resit and post it here.

    Johann Weyer, a Dutch physician, occultist, and demonologist, disciple and follower of Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa wrote Praestigiis Daemonum The book also contains a famous appendix also circulated independently as the Pseudomonarchia daemonum, a listing of the names and titles of infernal spirits. S. Freud called the Praestigiis Daemonum one of the ten most significant books of all time.

    In 1898, Jung began to get seriously interested in the occult. When he learned that his 16-year-old cousin is a practicing spiritualist medium, made her the object of his research and became interested in spiritualist séances that a group of his relatives has carried out. He hypnotized his 16-year old cousin. For two years, Jung Young was an active participant in these sessions and their faithful chronicler, in the end, they also have become a key topic of his doctoral dissertation, "The psychology and pathology of so-called Occult phenomena" Now we know that H. Preiswerk was also during this time mistress CG Jung. M. Brumlik, 1999 p. 254)) He must have learned that from Freud who also had incestuous relationships. Anyway, Jung couldn't be neutral in terms of scientific research to the woman who was hypnotized and with whom had sexual relations.

    E. Jones expressed the opinion that after the "seminal research on dementia praecox associations, Jung fell into pseudo considerations and will never be liberated from them" (E. Jones, Free Associations, 1959, p 165).

    Later, Jung he was engaged in spiritualist medium talks with the spiritual leader, whom he called Philemon, as if it were a real person. He writes in his memoirs: "Philemon represented a force which was not me (...). He taught me psychic objectivity, the reality of the soul (...). He was a very mysterious character for me. Sometimes seemed very real, a living person . I walked with him in the garden, he was for me the one whom the Indians call a guru "(CG Jung, Memories, Dreams, Reflections, Pantheon, 1973, pp. 183). Some suggest that Jung that between 1913-1918 Jung was a schizophrenic.

    According to Wikipedia, in 1741, Emanuel Swedenborg , at the age of 53, he entered into a spiritual phase in which he began to experience dreams and visionsd , beginning on Easter weekend of April 6, 1744. This culminated in a 'spiritual awakening', in which he received revelation that he was appointed by the Lord to write a heavenly New Church Doctrine and to reform Christianity. According to the New Church Doctrine the Lord had opened Swedenborg's spiritual eyes, so that from then on he could freely visit heaven and hell and talk with angels, demons and other spirits.

    His Journal of Dreams can be captivating.

    Unlike the works he published in his lifetime, or intended to publish, which were all written in Latin, the Journal of Dreams was, in the words of a present-day Swedish Swedenborg scholar, written in ‘rather crude but expressive Swedish’ (Jonsson, Visionary Scientist: The Effects of Science and Philosophy on Swedenborg’s Cosmology. 1999 p. 16). It has been described as a ‘difficult and obscure notebook’ (Jonsson, 130) which ‘reflects a profound psychical crisis’ (Jonsson, 150). Among the heavenly visions come other scenes both mundane and fantastical: a cast of various dogs, Kings, an executioner with his heads, dragons, a talking ox, and an abstract apparition of an oblong globe. There are also many women and, as we shall see, some dreams that are erotic in content.

    Quite early in the Journal Swedenborg noted that after arriving at The Hague ‘…the inclination for women, which had been my chief passion, so suddenly ceased’. Swedenborg never married, nor is it recorded that he ever had a long-term mistress. In his dreams, the woman touches his penis with her hand and he has an erection, bigger than he has ever had. He penetrates her, reflecting that a child must come of this, and writes that he got off en merveille. In another dream he is lying with a woman who was not beautiful but who pleased him. He touched her vagina and discovered that it had a set of teeth.

    Oh, those "mystics"….. Given the emphasis that Swedenborg gave to sexual love between men and women, an analysis of the eroticism of his dreams that was replaced by the passion for women at a crucial turning point in his life would seem to be an interesting subject of study.

    From Emanuel Swedenborg to Jan Potocki, a Polish nobleman, ethnologist, linguist, traveler, known for his novel The Manuscript Found in Saragossa. I watched his movie yesterday and I started reading his novel. Interestingly enough, it is the same theme of erotic dream with two Persian women as in Swedenborg’s Journals of Dreams. I don’t know if Potocki was influenced by Swedenborg. Dominique Triaire wrobe about J. Potocki but I haven’t read it. Manuscript touches on all things supernatural. The Cabbala, geomancy, and magic in and far between.

    Potocki suffered from melancholia and committed suicide at the age of 54.

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    Haribol Acharya blazeofglory's Avatar
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    ftil, you have a wealth of expertize and authority on some of the deep truths environing human nature. In fact I feel really small before your vast knowledge which I have read in some other threads you have posted. Of course your search and investigations into some of psychological domains and historical documents would be profitable to all of us who have a passion for the same. In fact what we call civilizations, books that have documented civilizations, cultural and social issues and values are skin-deep and few have ventured into the deeper human psyche wherein some wild and bare truths lie and which are barely digestible to we homo sapiens who are conditioned to live, think and behave in a particular, preset way. Our thoughts are secondhand impressions, in fact claptrap and I am always looking for the truth that has remain un-manifested to we humans. In fact we are pretentiously living masking our baser or lower animal instincts. Our laws, ethical codes are lies and in fact when people commit mistakes, the mistakes in question are the ones which remain outside the tribal social settings.

    “Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting charity and devotion have lost their original nature””

    “If water derives lucidity from stillness, how much more the faculties of the mind! The mind of the sage, being in repose, becomes the mirror of the universe, the speculum of all creation.

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    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    Are we phonies over our dress and true when lay bare our outers? In fact we behave inanely under the sway of civilization. Under our garments we present ourselves truly and candidly. Our civilization however stops us from doing what we subconsciously want to do.
    Why we pretend socially, intellectually, culturally, religiously and in every respect. Are we simply programmed, computerized beings? Calibrated by certain social architects we dance to the tune of their flute? From the while we are born to the instant we will depart we are under the social or ethical dos and don’ts and man is fully fettered by all kinds of mores, manners, expectations and the like and his freedom in reality is always at bay.
    Let us discuss this serious issue open mindedly without any ideological sways
    Are you sure that you are not misapprehending a supposed freedom certain countries have?

    Truthfulness in conduct is a state of mind, not a state of undress. Why do you think naturism is not widely practised?

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    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osho View Post
    Baring both soul and body one can fully express and of course the body is the abode in which the could resides and the temple, the body cannot be ignored to reserve space for the soul. Why we are not in fact baring our bodies? In fact it is all our conditioned minds or the taboos we are living by.
    What has baring the body got to do with inner truth? We are not baring our bodies because very few people feel inclined to, not that we are conditioned out of it. It is a choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blazeofglory View Post
    ftil, you have a wealth of expertize and authority on some of the deep truths environing human nature. In fact I feel really small before your vast knowledge which I have read in some other threads you have posted. Of course your search and investigations into some of psychological domains and historical documents would be profitable to all of us who have a passion for the same. In fact what we call civilizations, books that have documented civilizations, cultural and social issues and values are skin-deep and few have ventured into the deeper human psyche wherein some wild and bare truths lie and which are barely digestible to we homo sapiens who are conditioned to live, think and behave in a particular, preset way. Our thoughts are secondhand impressions, in fact claptrap and I am always looking for the truth that has remain un-manifested to we humans. In fact we are pretentiously living masking our baser or lower animal instincts. Our laws, ethical codes are lies and in fact when people commit mistakes, the mistakes in question are the ones which remain outside the tribal social settings.

    Well, Socrates said, “ I know nothing except my ignorance” so did I. I thought that it was funny that you have asked a question if we are simply programmed, computerized beings not seeing that you have been already programmed by Freud and Jung. I couldn’t stand Freud but I also didn’t like Jung. It was very freeing to do some research about Jung. There is much more than I wrote. Very freeing indeed.

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    It is really interesting that this topic is rinsed and raised to this extent and it indeed clears us of our hiccups and maybe puts-forth for some innovative ideas.

    Man is mostly culturating and acculturating himself and now he is a heap of flesh and ideas and he is no more himself and he is a mingling of so many thoughts and if we dissect will reduced into a pitiable wild animal

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    I have been reading Three Books of Occult Philosophy, written by Cornelius Agrippa. In Chapter LX : Of Madness, and Divinations which are made when men are awake, and of the power of a Melancholy humor, by which Spirits are sometimes induced into men bodies. Since Freud was fascinated with demons and Jung had a spirit called Philemon…….Agrippa has offered an explanation from where their theory originated.

    Agrippa wrote:

    “Democritus, and Plato attest the same, saying, that there were some melancholy men, that had such excellent wits, that they were thought, and seemed to be more divine then humane. So also there have been many melancholy men at first rude, ignorant, and untractable, as they say Hesiod, Ion, Tynnichus, Calcinenses, Homer, and Lucretius were, who on a sudden were taken with a madness, and became Poets, and prophesied wonderful, and divine things, which they themselves scarce understood. Whence divine Plato in Ion saith, many Prophets, after the violence of their madness was abated, do not well understand what they wrote, yet treated accurately of each Art in their madness, as all Artists by reading of them judge. So great also they say the power of melancholy is of, that by its force, Celestial spirits also are sometimes drawn into men bodies, by whose presence, and instinct, antiquity testifies men have been made drunk, and spoke most wonderful things. And that they think happens under a threefold difference, according to a threefold apprehension of the soul, viz. imaginative, rational, and mental. They say, therefore, when the mind is forced with a melancholy humor, nothing moderating the power of the body, and passing beyond the bonds of the members, is wholly carried into imagination, and doth suddenly become a seat for inferior spirits, by whom it oftentimes receives wonderful ways, and forms of manual Arts. So we see that any most ignorant man doth presently become an excellent painter, or contrivers of building, and to become a master in any such Art. But when these kinds of spirits portend to us future things, they shew those things which belong to the disturbing of the Elements, and changes of times, as rain, tempests, innundations, earthquakes, great mortality, famine, slaughter, and the like. But when the mind is turned wholly into reason, it becomes a receptacle for middle spirits and obtains the knowledge, and understanding of natural, and humane things. So we see that a man sometimes doth on a sudden become a Philosopher, physician, or an excellent Orator, and foretells mutations of Kingdoms, and restitutions of Ages, and such things as belong to them, as the Sybil did to the Romans; but when the mind is wholly elevated into the understanding, then it becomes a receptacle of sublime spirits, and learns of them the secrets of divine things, such as the Law of God, the orders of Angels, and such things as belong to the knowledge of things eternal, and salvation of souls.”

    I am wondering how our view of human nature would be if we were free from…….. influence of spirits.

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    Man is by birth blank and he could enjoy every gift of nature the way flying birds could. I am quite the opposite de-winged and I cannot do things freely, instinctively, no even in my dreams and imaginations. For if I dream a funny dream that is not within a container of social principles I feel guilty and this guilt is the repercussion of complex social and moral codes and structures.

    I hope I can be in my wholes, in full manifestations if laid bare.

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