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Thread: do you believe Heaven and Hell exist?

  1. #46
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Well I am only speculating overhall because the idea that one is not without the other is what upsets the balance with me.
    Heaven is linked to hell and vice versa hence me rejecting the idea that all is well and not so well either.
    There is no hell and there is no heaven as such.
    What there is is something totally different. A different world a perfect world I don't know.
    Heaven it seems is like giving presents to people at Christmas and hell is the opposite taking nice things away from them.
    I don't want a present if it means it has been taken away from someone else's.
    In other words a person who can give something nice, ie a present to someone, then in the same breath does the complete opposite with someone else, ie not give a present or not be nice, is my allegory to heaven and hell and so that is why I reject it.
    You are either nice all around or you are not and that is the point.
    Religion and god is not about I give you this and then I also do a nasty thing to someone else by putting them in hell. This does not add up to me.
    Last edited by cacian; 11-13-2012 at 03:11 AM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  2. #47
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    I don't think it's a matter of you getting to go to Heaven because you've taken somebody elses place. One would assume there are an infinite amount of places in Heaven. You getting 'the present', would not result in somebody else not getting it. The other person doesn't get the present because they have been bad/sinned.

  3. #48
    TobeFrank Paulclem's Avatar
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    The disturbing thing is that both heavenly and hellish and heavenly conditions have, and continue to exist, on earth. That suggests that if they can exist in this life, then should thete be an afterlife, then the existence of heaven and hell are more likely.

  4. #49
    A 40 Bag To Freedom E.A Rumfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volya View Post
    I think we can work out how we came to this idea of Heaven pretty easily. From what I know of mythology and religion, the ancient Greeksbelieved in the Underworld where Hades ruled, and Mount Olympus where the rest of the Gods lived. Mount Olympus was up in the sky beyond the clouds.

    Now although in this idea of things, ALL of the dead went to the Underworld, my understanding is that once they went there they were separated, with the better people getting a better/less-punishing afterlife (anyone with better knowledge please correct me if I'm wrong).

    The greatest heroes went to Mt Olympus to live with the gods. Now this already draws parallels with the modern concept of Heaven, with the good/heroic going 'up to the clouds in the sky' and the bad people going down underground to a dark, desolate world. Angels have also an extensive history, with the word itself meaning 'messenger', relating to Hermes the winged messenger god. I believe they also had cherubs back then too.

    So from looking at what the Greeks believed, it's not too much of a jump to see how this has evolved over time into the concept we have now.

    This is all pure speculation from me based on what I know, so I'm not entirely sure how much is true.
    The idea of an afterlife is as old as human thought and exists in every civilization in different but inherently similar ways. It is simply a comforting human feeling. That is spirituality. Religion is another matter. I believe like Nietzsche that religion came from the desire to control people. Work real hard and you'll be rewarded eternally, no matter how bad your life is heaven awaits you. The idea of Heaven effectively excuses any travesties. What is poverty, war and famine now compared to every lasting bliss?
    Her hair was like a flowing cascade and her breasts were real awesome also.
    My ***** Better Have My Money by Fly Guy
    My ***** better have my money.
    Through rain, sleet, or snow,
    my ho better have my money.
    Not half, not some, but all my cash.
    Because if she don't, I'll put my foot dead in her ***.

  5. #50
    A 40 Bag To Freedom E.A Rumfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cacian View Post
    You are either nice all around or you are not and that is the point I want to make.
    Not for nothing but it is a stupid point to make. Nobody is all around nice or all around evil. So nobody is in heaven or in hell. We are all capable of EVIL things and if you take the time you can find an equal amount of bad and good traits in each person. We are all the products of the same world how can we not be the same at the very basest level?
    Her hair was like a flowing cascade and her breasts were real awesome also.
    My ***** Better Have My Money by Fly Guy
    My ***** better have my money.
    Through rain, sleet, or snow,
    my ho better have my money.
    Not half, not some, but all my cash.
    Because if she don't, I'll put my foot dead in her ***.

  6. #51
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    The disturbing thing is that both heavenly and hellish and heavenly conditions have, and continue to exist, on earth. That suggests that if they can exist in this life, then should thete be an afterlife, then the existence of heaven and hell are more likely.
    Hi Paul why exactly?
    Why could it not be something totally different?
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  7. #52
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
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    No, I don't believe in either because there isn't a shred of evidence for them. NDEs and OBEs have largely been explained by medical science, but, like most naturalistic explanations, it takes non-scientists much longer to catch up with the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paulclem View Post
    There is no description in the bible of our modern conceptions of heaven and hell. If I am wrong I'll stand corrected.
    A lot of people's ideas about heaven, hell, an anti-christ, and satan come more from Dante and Milton than The Bible. The Bible is often very ambiguous about such things, or, at least, nowhere near as simplistic as most beliefs make them out to be.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  8. #53
    Maybe YesNo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    No, I don't believe in either because there isn't a shred of evidence for them. NDEs and OBEs have largely been explained by medical science, but, like most naturalistic explanations, it takes non-scientists much longer to catch up with the facts.
    I wouldn't be so sure that NDEs and OBEs have been largely explained by medical science.

    Here's a recent account of a neurosurgeon who would disagree with you:

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswee...afterlife.html

  9. #54
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    Afterlife

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainHatteras View Post
    Which would be denial of basic science. You don't need to be a scientist to know that once one is brain dead, there cannot be any continuing thought processes, because thoughts are electrochemical charges transmitted over synapses by neurons. Once this is no longer happening, the person is no more.
    There is no doubt that to function on the earth as a conscious being, one requires brain function and the neurons to be working, but that does not mean that one does not have an afterlife that one can function in. It has been accepted that the body contains a soul. When the flesh has died, this soul no longer exists within the human body. It is possible that the exiting function of the soul leads to the afterlife.

  10. #55
    Registered User manuscript's Avatar
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    even if i could believe it i would hope it is not true. this life is enough for me and i cant think of any worse torture than existing interminably on and on. i want to be like the sisters of the little mermaid and dissolve into ocean foam.

  11. #56
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesNo View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure that NDEs and OBEs have been largely explained by medical science.

    Here's a recent account of a neurosurgeon who would disagree with you:
    He's already been taken down by actual neuroscientists (http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven). The only reason that article is proliferating so quickly is a combination of what I said above (ignorance of non-scientists), and the ol' argument from authority and ignorane fallacies. Nobody of actual authority is the least bit impressed by Alexander's experience because he presents no actual science; the story is meant to cash in on the old NDE/OBE market/cult that's proliferating amongst the wishful, mystical ignorant.
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  12. #57
    King of Dreams MorpheusSandman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DNCancio View Post
    It has been accepted that the body contains a soul.
    The same way it's been accepted that the Earth is flat, the sun revolves around it, and a bearded man is throwing lightning bolts at us?
    "As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light of meaning in the darkness of mere being." --Carl Gustav Jung

    "To absent friends, lost loves, old gods, and the season of mists; and may each and every one of us always give the devil his due." --Neil Gaiman; The Sandman Vol. 4: Season of Mists

    "I'm on my way, from misery to happiness today. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh" --The Proclaimers

  13. #58
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    I can't find anything in my Bible about being reunited with loved ones in heaven or about the inclusion of animals. Guess we read different ones.
    Anyway "sufficient for the day etc..."

  14. #59
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ennison View Post
    I can't find anything in my Bible about being reunited with loved ones in heaven or about the inclusion of animals. Guess we read different ones.
    Anyway "sufficient for the day etc..."
    Can I ask what is so special about the inclusions of animals?
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

  15. #60
    confidentially pleased cacian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MorpheusSandman View Post
    No, I don't believe in either because there isn't a shred of evidence for them. NDEs and OBEs have largely been explained by medical science, but, like most naturalistic explanations, it takes non-scientists much longer to catch up with the facts.

    A lot of people's ideas about heaven, hell, an anti-christ, and satan come more from Dante and Milton than The Bible. The Bible is often very ambiguous about such things, or, at least, nowhere near as simplistic as most beliefs make them out to be.
    Why would I want to include science to tell me about whether there is an after life?
    How is science to know?
    It is not up to science it is literally to study it or prove it. Science stops there.
    Last edited by cacian; 11-13-2012 at 01:43 PM.
    it may never try
    but when it does it sigh
    it is just that
    good
    it fly

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